OK guys. Here's the deal. This web-site and a heavy dose of reading Africana took me to Africa in 2013. I've only been once, with a buff and a little plains game to my name. I used a Whitworth 458 WM on the buff to good effect. Before that, our own retreever (DRSS crack dealer)led me astray and I bought a Merkel 470 NE, but sold it before I ever booked the hunt so I could buy some toys (SCUBA and kayaks) for me and the familia when stationed in FL.<BR><BR>To the present question. I'm planning my next trip and am pretty well convinced DG must be on the menu again; non-exportable ele with replica tusks made...or buff again. I can see myself doing a buff a couple more times in the future...maybe in Australia even. Found a Merkel 450-400....and Carl's Merkel 470 on this site. What would you suggest? What smart-ass comments can you add to enlighten me?What would you recommend?Just use the Whitworth 458 WM and stop romancing over doubles.Buy the 450-400, since you're likely only shooting one ele. You can even scope it for your aging eyes.Buy the 470 NE, since when you need stopping power, there's a big difference between 400gr and 500gr.

Is the double necessary, absolutely not. Will you be a better, more enlightened and engaging person for buying a double and using it to hunt in Africa, absolutely. Since you seem to be leaning toward both elephant and buffalo, I would lean towards the .470. One, I like the bump in knock down power of the .470 versus the .450/.400. Two, the price Carl has on the .470 is a bargain.

Use the Whitworth and spend the money on trophy fees instead of a double.

The Merkels are at a really good price point right now,my vote the 470,Dg is Dg,I like the biggest caliber that I can handle,I hand load all my ammo,I have used my 470 on smaller game on many an occasion with lighter bullets as well.

Double rifles are cool. African hunting is not all about what is practical.

And the Merkels currently available in that ad are priced such that you probably won't lose much if it ever comes time to sell. And the .500 NE is the same price as the .470!

In spite of what we tell our wives, girlfriend, and friends, very little of what we love to do can be categorized by the word "need." If you can afford it, buy the biggest double you can handle, and take it to Africa. If you don't, you will spend the est of your life wishing that you had.

Badger, it is true that the 458 Whitworth will do just fine, and the 450-400 double is a fine chambering and will do the job with good bullet placement and a proper bullet. That being said, My personal choice would be the 470NE double, especially as Mike says the ones Karl is selling are brand new at lower than used price for a clean double rifle.

The post by Sean suggesting using the 458 and spend the money on extra species is also a very sensible idea as well but if you will be hunting Ele and more buffalo, then the 470NE double is the ticket, and you can sell or trade the Whitworth 458, for another Whitworth chambered for 375H&H for a back-up scoped rifle for your double!

Of your choices I voted for the 470NE, but any of the choices you list will get the job done if you do your part!
...................................................................... good luck!

Buy what you want. What you want is the brand new Merkel 500NE for sale offered by 757arms in the Classified section.

757arms is Ken's (KEBCO) son and Ken is one of the good guys. The 500 is a distinct step up from the 470 with little to no increase in weight or recoil. And the target shows it shoots a bit better compared to this 470.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Buy what you want. What you want is the brand new Merkel 500NE for sale offered by 757arms in the Classified section.

757arms is Ken's (KEBCO) son and Ken is one of the good guys. The 500 is a distinct step up from the 470 with little to no increase in weight or recoil. And the target shows it shoots a bit better compared to this 470.

. . . and the wood on the .500 is outstanding compared to the .470.

MJines is correct about the wood on the 500NE. It's at least Grade 5 and much nicer than the wood on the 470.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
MJines is correct about the wood on the 500NE. It's at least Grade 5 and much nicer than the wood on the 470.

Yeah! The wood on the 500 gave me wood.

Matt, of course you could make the trip with your 458, but with the cost of a trip involving Elephant and Buff, the extra $$$ of a new double for the trip doesn't seem that significant. If that's part of your dream trip, don't short-change yourself.

With the possible exception of those who suggested I just use my 458 WM, you are very bad people. Must I caution you again that Santa is watching...?
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I ran it by the accountants (pictured) and they said "if it gets us out with the SxS shotguns more, sure, go for it."

I'm buying Carl's 470 NE.



P.S.
Retreever/Mike -- I'm blaming you for this...

Congratulations. And have fun!

Merry Christmas

Chris

Great, you have good accountants :-)

I also have 2 of those, but never knew they were accountants, I just thought they were shrinks. WHODATHUNKIT?

Good looking accountants, especially the red one. He could pass as the brother of my own accountant.

Thanks for the encouragement.

A7drvr - Any chance you flew out of Buckley ANGB in the 80's. I was an aircraft armament systems specialist on A7d's there in my younger days.

Matt you won't regret this decision. Well, actually you might in a way, because like Africa itself, double rifles are addictive!

I think you should do what you want. Or as much of it as you can afford.

I voted for the 458, but just like the last presidential election, my vote didn't matter!

Congratulations on a cool rifle!

I would have definitely bought the .500 NE. As far as shootability goes...no difference ( I actually think my .500 is easier to shoot...ie: kicks less than all the .470's I have shot) and the .500 NE is a big step up from a .470 (basically no different ballistically from the .458 you have) as a stopper.

The .500 NE looked to be the nicer of the 2 rifles.

On another note...the 450-400 is the best double caliber to resale and a reliable caliber...not much different really than a .375 in stopping power though.

You might want to ask yourself what do you wish to accomplish? What is your desire to do? As for myself it was first off,among other things, to do an affordable buff hunt.The second and third hunt objectives where to try and improve on all aspects of the hunt.That meant going up just a little if I thought it was needed gun and all.You decide what you want and how much you want it.

quote:

..the 450-400 is the best double caliber...not much different really than a .375 in stopping power though.

No such thing as "stopping power"

Merry Xmas Lane.

Given the choices, I would have gone with the .470 as well, as there is just something about big bore doubles.

In reality, as far as hunting goes, there is little difference in effectiveness between the cartridges- if you put the bullet in the right spot, the animal dies.

My last hunt, my PH (who has a .500) was surprised with how well the .470 worked- the buffalo went down quickly with no fuss. Probably more a result of shot placement than anything else, but the North Fork cup point solids didn't hurt.

Most of us have more limitations on how much time we can spend on hunting than anything else, so if you want a double to play with, get the thing. $7500 would pay for a couple buffalo trophy fees, but if you are asking about buying a double, you obviously can arrange things so that you can do both.

As to aging eyes, when I hunted elephant I hung a Swarovski Z6 1-6 on the .470, and it worked great, but was a bit big. I put a Trijicon RMR on it after Ivan Carter recommended it for us types whose eyes are crapping out, and while I can't shoot it as well as with the scope, it makes the gun handle like a double instead of a overweight bolt gun- and so what if I can't shoot 200 yard impala with it... That's what the bolt guns excel at.

I will not look at the 500. I will not look at the 500....

I voted for the third choice. Never let logic (or slim finances) get in the way of a new gun!

The DRSS crack dealer here and I vote for the 470 hands down. But if I was buying the 4540/400 is my choice since I own a boomer.

Mike

I voted for the .458cal Whitworth. As much as I love a good double the boltpopper will do what is needed. I would only choose a double if it was for the fact I wanted a double anyway. The 450/400 Nitro is a good choice as it can be build light, scoped and create a moderate recoil which is tolerable for most people.

I don't like Merkel doubles when compared to say a Verney Carron.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

..the 450-400 is the best double caliber...not much different really than a .375 in stopping power though.

No such thing as "stopping power"

All evidence being to the contrary ... at least with elephant!

Take another look at that video with Jines and Buzz STOPPING the ele cow that charged them, only to have her get back up and attempt to run off before Buzz put her down for good. If there is no such thing as "stopping power", are you saying they would have had the same result with something like a 243 Win instead of the 500NE and 416 Rigby used in the video?

I've personally knocked down several elephant with a 500NE and 577NE, only to have them get back up, or attempt to do so. If there is no such thing as "stopping power", I shouldn't have been able to knock them down without outright killing them.

Two boxes of Hornady's 500gr DGS showed up today and with any luck I'll pick up the rifle tomorrow evening. Have a camping trip planned with my son later this week and we plan to try her out. Pics to follow...

Badger Matt; no chance on Buckley. I flew A-7Es in the Navy; much better aircraft than those cheap Air Force D-birds.

All very interesting, lots of opinions but then everyone has and is entitled to their opinion. However when one reads all of the posts the remaining fact still remains. Whatever you decide upon if you do not practice and ultimately have the ability to shoot then one is better to remain at home pontificating on what gun you should have or not have.
PRACTICE, LEARN TO SHOOT WHATEVER YOU CARRY THEN PRACTICE SOME MORE.

There is a great person and friend who has posted on this topic who wanders about in fields with his lovely double shooting rocks. Absolutely brilliant, he can shoot. I would rather have him with me as a backup carrying a 7 x 57 on a follow up for a wounded buffalo or elephant than some person who talks the talk but is not capable of walking the walk carrying a .600 NE having only fired 20 rounds out of the bloody thing.

All of the guns mentioned are fantastic if you have done your practice and can make your choice talk.

PRACTICE THEN PRACTICE SOME MORE. KNOW YOUR LIMITATIONS. KNOW YOUR RIFLE AND IT'S LIMITATIONS.