Who has taken African game or Australian feral bovids with a 470 NE?
What game, what loads, and what effect? Especially anyone with Federal factory load experience or a personal pet load, how do you rate them or compare them? Please.

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RAB

DR,

Do you have Graeme Wright's book about double rifles?

If not, I will be happy to excerpt some 470 data and post it here. As I recall, he had some loads for slow burning powders, maybe H870 or H1000, about 120 or 130 grains, that did not require a filler.

His book also contains loads with fillers, but he repeatedly says not to use fillers because of the possibility of pressure spikes, leaving me confused.

500grains,
I guess that would be a bit of confusion in your recollection.

I think you are recalling what Wright said about duplex loads of a few grains of modern shotgun or pistol powders used with black powder, trying to duplicate the performance of old black powder loads in BPE guns. It seems the newer BP is just not as good as the original grades of BP.

He did show the slow powder loads like IMR 4831 for the NE cartridges, but he came down pretty much in favor of RL-15 with filler for best results. No pressure spike broblems there.

The pressure thing with NE loads was with the slow powder loads causing the time pressure curve to peak farther down the barrels, which might damage old barrels at their thinner portions (bulge) or loosen their soldered unions with the ribs, IIRC.

I think he implied that Ross Seyfried had helped him with the early stages of his work, and even Ross is leaning more toward the RL-15 loads with filler nowadays.

However, it is true that the H4831 or IMR-4831 loads in the 470 NE may give lower peak pressures than what I am getting with the RL-15.

I did note that some of the old ammo data showed the 470 NE giving 2125 fps with 500 grain bullet at about 14 tonnes, but it was with 75 grain Cordite loads in 31" pressure barrel! Some of the old loads were pretty mild.

Your 470 Capstick is a bit more powerful than the old 470 NE.

I was looking for some experiences with the old 470 NE cartridge with modern powder handloads or Federal factory loads.

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RAB

DaggaRon,

My only experience with taking game with a 470 was last year. I used Federal TB solids on an elephant. 2 shots in the heart lung area, it went 40 - 50 yards and was down. 3 more insurance shots one in the heart and 2 in the spine. I am not sure all the insurance shots were needed but how often do you get to shoot a 470 at an elephant. All the bullets were still intact - just rifling marks on them. None exited the animal and sorry I did not measure penetration.

BigB

BigB,
Thanks for the reply. No doubt the Federal TBSH 500 grain solid is the best factory loaded solid for the 470 NE. I think they load it with RL-15 and the hotter F216 primer with no filler.

I think it is possible for one's gun to deliver anywhere from 1900 fps to 2150 fps with any given shot using Federal loads. Must be that the powder meter fumbles occasionally at the factory, plus the no-filler load might ignite a bit erratically.

Maybe this problem is just an isolated batch problem regarding wild velocity swings. But I have seen it. I am not saying any of them are overloaded, just seemingly occasionally underloaded. And, when this happens, the bullet is a low flyer on the target, so I don't think it is a chronograph problem.

I might consider pulling the bullets and depriming the factory cases, to reload the TBSH with F215 primers, RL-15, and filler in the nickle plated Federal cases.

Have you chronographed the Federal Factory loads in your Merkel to see if they are consistent? Yours must have been good enough for elephant. Two quick shots in the heart and lung area and he was down within 40-50 yards, as planned, eh?

What range did you shoot from?

Maybe I just got the odd lot. Most 4 shot composites with the factory stuff have been in the 50 to 100 fps extreme spread range for me. Some are fair, but there is the occasional way low velocity one in my factory ammo.

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RAB

DaggaRon,

I was about 20 - 25 yards from the elephant, they were resting under a shade tree and I managed to get two quick shots off. It was in the heavy Jess and it all happens very fast. I would like to say I was cool, calm and collected but far from the truth. Elephants seem so big when you are standing so close.

I do not have a chronograph, next time at the range I will see if someone with one will test the load. A buddy has a Merkel 470 also so maybe we can test both.

BigB

Graeme Wright lists 121 grains of H1000 (AR2214) with a 500 grain bullet to give 2105 fps.

"This load gives a full case and very good ignition."

page 126.

He also says that the 2 barrel splits he examined happend with Federal factory loads using Re15, that the pressure curve from modern powders, whether fast like Re15 or slow like H4831, are nearly identical, so the barrel splits are more likely from flaws than from slow powder.

500grains,
Yep, I have the book and have read it. You said yourself that it is full of contradictory recommendations. In fact, Wright does hem and haw and hedge his bets and admits that he is not too sure about some things.

Indeed the two cases of barrel splits were attributed to metallurgical flaws in old guns.

Federal loads were involved. Federal does not use filler.

Nowhere in the book does Wright say filler causes pressure spikes. Does he? That was the basic confusion.

I am very happy with RL-15 and filler. It gives the least recoil for velocity achieved, is probably as heat stable as any of the best powders, and the foam filler makes for a physically and ballistically stable load.

I might try slower powders and no filler, but it would be hard to beat RL-15.

Many of the things Wright says in his book can be taken out of context to support contradictory arguments. I think I have read it carefully and stand by the gist of it as I understand it.

Wright is catering to those who want to shoot the heirlooms and is covering his backside so that he doesn't get bit where he sits.

I think the strong, modern guns like the Merkel, Krieghoff, and Searcy will handle hard bullets and cases full of slow powder just fine.

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RAB

I just got in from the range testing some more loads for my 470. Bell Brass, 87gr Rel 15, Fed 215 primers using 3 gr dacron filler was giving me 2100 fps average.

I tried using 1/2 inch of very soft foam cut with a 50 BMG case. It averaged 2050 fps. I am going to try 87.5 and 88 gr Rel 15 to see what happens.

Jim

JBoutfishin,
What bullet are you using, and how long are your barrels?

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RAB

DR,

I am not trying to start an argument - I am just pointing out the many different pieces of information floating around about reloading for NE cartridges. You have a world more experience with them than I.

I use the same load as JBOUTFISHING except I use woodleigh SOFTS and solids. In my gun I get 2150 fps. I have a Searcy Double in 470 NE that I've used on Buff in Botswanna. I rate the cartridge extremely effective. I saw a definate reaction in the Buff after being shot through the shoulders at about 40 yrds with the solid and the second through the chest with a soft as he faced us was recovered well mushroomed after about 2 ft. of penetration. Dead Buff- happy hunter! What more could I ask for?-Rob

500grains,
I am bewildered that I have to use 92 grains of RL-15 in Norma Brass. Graeme Wright did not cover this aspect in his book either. I want to try the BELL stuff, which is almost 50 grains heavier than the Norma and surely has lesser internal capacity, so should need less powder. Heck, one might get by with no filler at all with BELL Brass and RL-15???
I am a fledgling with double rifles.

Robgunbuilder,
Hey! Great to hear! I like the Woodleigh soft and solid combo! They are perfect at the 470 NE velocities, and probably better than the old original bullets that the 470 made its reputation with. I just think the Flat nose solids like the TBSH, GSC FN, and Norbert's SuperPenetrator might be better than the round nose solid design.

The GSC FN (solid)/ HV (soft) combo also has appeal. The eight narrow driving bands make these monometal, moly coated, copper bullets easy on bores.

And then there is the Swift round nose A-Frame. Faultless. That thick partition makes them a bit hard on an heirloom, however.

And the Barnes XLC seems to be a good choice too. I think the coating on those makes them easy on bores as well, with the bullet diameter of the coated bullets being 0.475" on the ones I measured.

But I could be quite happy with Woodleigh bullets only. They seem to have an accuracy edge in the limited testing of my gun.

Now, let us digress if you have time to tell about where and when you hunted in Botswana. I would assume you were in the Okavango for buffalo. Can you tell us who the outfitter and PH were, and any place names of camps or landmarks nearby? Does Duba Plain sound familiar? How about Caporota Camp? Michelletti Bates Safaris? Ian, Ronnie, or Allistair McFarlane? Africa Wild Safari's? Harry's Bar in Maun? Dang but that town was crowded with yuppie/PC/lesbian Green Peace sea kayakers in July-August 2001.

I sure hope the greenies don't take over what is left of the Okavango with their photographic-only "safaris" and obscenely luxurious camps. I think that should be limited to the handicapped, but the handicapped should have access to real hunting safaris too, properly assisted of course, depending on their special needs, physical or mental.

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RAB

Daggaron, I am using 500 Gr. Woodleigh Weldcors. Barrels are 24"

Jim

[This message has been edited by JBoutfishn (edited 05-10-2002).]

JBoutfishin,
Thanks, makes sense with BELL brass, except for the part about 50 fps less with foam filler than with Dacron fiber. ??? I guess I will try both side by side for comparison one of these days.

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RAB

The Dacron filler weighed 3 gr, while the foam was .4 gr. My thoughts are that when ignition takes place, the foam compresses to almost nothing, while the dacron maintains more volume. Thus higher pressure and velocity?

Thoughts?

Jim

JBoutfishin,
That might be it! The foam is almost like nothing as far as affecting the internal capacity of the case and pressures ... all it does is make the ignition consistently uniform, to be redundant!

The heavier mass and more maintained volume displacement of the Dacron filler causes some other internal ballistic effects, no doubt.

Why didn't I think of that!

I don't think Graeme Wright ever made this observation either, but there must be something to it.

Well, I have had pretty good results with the foam, just have to burn a little more powder. But those BELL brass and Dacron filler loads sound like they would save some powder in the long run.

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RAB

DaggaRon. Try this next time you chrono factory federal 470's. Shoot four rounds but elevate the bbl. to get the powder against the primer before each shot. Gently lower the rifle and shoot accross the chrono. Then after your gun cools shoot four more rounds, pointing the gun at the ground, to place the powder against the bullet. See if the velocity is lower when the powder is against the bullet. I always use a filler [dacron] with my 450 No2. If I do not, I get hangfires. I always use enough dacron to compress the filler between the bullet and the powder. this ensures that over time the dacron does not get compacted by handling and allow the powder to move around inside the case. This has eleminated any wide velocity variations that can effect grouping. For pigs, deer,etc. try some 350 Hawk bullets. Start with what ever load regulates your 500gr. bullets and go up or down to get proper impact on target. In the 450 No.2 and in the 450/400 3 1/4 I did not have to change the powder charges any from my full weight loads get the light bullets to hit the same place as the heavier slugs.

In Graeme Wrights book he mentions inside neck reaming 500 NE cases. Does anyone know why he might do that, other than having a gun with an extremely tight chamber or forming the brass from something else?

NE 450 No2,
I have heard of the tilt trick, will try it with some Federal factory loads.

I have a 400 grain Hornady XTP load that could substitute for a 350 grain Hawk load, and yes it did shoot to same POI as the 500 grain loads, with the same powder charge, but at 2203 fps average. Lot of meat damage if it makes it in very far at all, no doubt.

I did get some good results overall with the foam and Norma brass, but will try the fiber filler and work up again.

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RAB

500 grains,
See page 26 of the second edition of Wright's book. Inside neck reaming is done for older rifles with tight necks, chambered for the old brass that might have been as thin as 0.008" thick around the neck. Modern brass is more typically 0.012" thick at the neck.

Old brass was not meant to be reloaded like the new stuff is intended for.

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RAB

Dagga, Dagga, Dagga, shame on you for quoting such a load for your .470, shades of my 404 loads...Remember, what goes around comes around.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,
Right! I did say words to the effect (on other threads) of don't try this at home unless you start low and work up with the same components, Norma brass is about fifty grains lighter than BELL brass, and brass choice will affect velocities and pressures, don't try to exceed 2150 fps with 500 grain bullets, and use a modern "shooter" like the Merkel, Krieghoff, Searcy, and best be very careful with the antiques.

Now the discussion has highlighted how brass neck thickness and choice of filler whether 3 grains of fiber or 1/2 grain of foam can also affect pressures and velocities, as does bullet type. This is a learning experience for me. And so was that 404 thread.

Mea culpa. I welcome any bashing in the cause of enlightenment.

So, Ray, what are your observations on the use of the 470 NE in the field, whether by you or others that you witnessed? How would you compare it's effectiveness to other double rifle cartridges, from your observations?

I have adopted your pet double rifle name for my Merkel 470 NE: Sweet Thang. I will try to treat her right now that I have "proof tested" her myself.

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RAB

O.K., I now know everything there is to know about reloading the 470 NE double, which is obviously the best double rifle cartridge of all time! End of story???

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RAB

I think I have found my loads for now. Using 500 gr Woodleigh Solids, Bell Brass, Fed 215 Primers, 1/2" Foam Filler in a 24 inch Barrels, 87gr Rel 15 works out to 2100�. The same set up with 500 gr Woodleigh Soft Points requires 88 gr Rel 15 for 2100� fps. Now its practice, practice, practice before October Safari to Tanzania......

Jim

Dagga,
The .470 is the time proven champion of all the double rifles, it brings a $1000 premium in any English gun and its been around for a hundred years...Probably the best of the lot.

I have observed many buffalo, Lion and elephant shot with it and it seldom fails and when it did, it was because the first two bullets were stuck in the wrong spots and when that happens then only a 20 MM will work, Maybe!!

I know of one instance where it failed because the dork that worked up the loads for it had them running out at 995 FPS, not a good load. He was bragging about how he could handle recoil and the 470 didn't bother him!!

It is the double rifle caliber by which all others are judged, that should tell you something. Kinda like a Nosler, if someone compares bullets it's always better than a Nosler!!!

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Jim,
Gotta get some of that BELL brass myself. Your loads sound like a good plan.

Ray,

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RAB

If you decided to try out Graeme Wright's H1000 load for the 470 NE I would be interested in the result. In particular, it sounded interesting because the powder completely fills the case so no filler is needed.

I have a Chapuis .470 and this rifle loves a load of 114 grains of Reloader 22 behind a 500 grain Woodleigh. This load almost fills the case so there are no hassles about fillers and both barrels print within 1.5 inches at 50 yards for a velocity of 2182fps. Unfortunately, the only game I have shot with this rifle, so far, is a couple of impala (leopard baits) - yes, a bit of an overkill but I am planning on taking a waterbuffalo later this year with it. I have so much confidence in this load that I don't envisage a problem.

500grains,
I have some H1000. I will be careful not to get it confused with the H110.

RobertEP,
Good luck with the buffalo. I might give your RL-22 load a whirl too.

My original idea was to use some of that Aussie made H4831, up to 120 grains of it or 2150 fps, whichever came first. The Merkel needs a little more breaking in.

RL-15 and H4831 are my two favorite powders. I could get by pretty well with just those two.