A Marlin Guide Gun for Dangerous Game

15 August 2002, 11:05

500grains

Since there seem to be a lot of folks who would like to use a Marlin Guide Gun to hunt dangerous game like elephant, buffalo, hippo and rhino, I have some suggestions for how the Guide Gun can be customized to make it suitable for the task.

1. Chamber it for 500 NE, 470 NE, 500 jeffery or 458 lott. A magnum version in 600 NE could be offered. This will require a few alterations, such as lengthening and widening the receiver, increasing the bolt diameter, and replacing the magazine tube and barrel.

2. Convert it to controlled feed. In this respect, I suggest building a new bolt based on the Granite Mountain Arms mauser bolt. The cartridge feeding assembly would need to be modified to work with the new bolt.

3. Get rid of the exposed hammer and cross bolt safety. The simplest solution will be to convert the gun to double action only with a hammer shroud.

Any other suggestions?

15 August 2002, 12:26

Fit 1/4 rib & express sights as standard, barrel band swivel stud and also chamber it in the .700 BMG improved so we can get an honest 3000 fps from a 1200 grain slug. And to weigh around 10 pounds. [Big Grin]

16 August 2002, 07:55

Elk_Man

How about just loading it with big, hard cast bullets at around 1550-1800 fps and learning to shoot it well?
[Smile]

16 August 2002, 19:42

Rusty Gunn

quote:
Originally posted by Elk_Man:
How about just loading it with big, hard cast bullets at around 1550-1800 fps and learning to shoot it well?

Thats beyound their capabilities, they can't handle it! So, instead, they make small of it, simply because it makes them feel better about their insecurities of the whole matter. [Big Grin]

~~~Suluuq

17 August 2002, 12:30

<BIG AL Williams>

there was a gentleman about a year ago who made a.50 calber not the .ak but a real .50 do anyone remember this guy? what ever happen t him?

18 August 2002, 10:02

Kev

HI,

Yes, how about a win 86 in a 50-110,and will push a 525 grain bullet to 2200fps and a 570 grain to 2000-2100 fps, sounds like the win86 I am getting from MR. Dave Clay.The 50-110 has a case length of 2.4 and the 50 Alaskan has a case length of 2.1 big differents, alot more powder in the 50-110 around 250 fps more with the big case of the 50-110. I think more people will soon see how the 50-110 in a lever has the power for anything.Kev

18 August 2002, 10:48

Kev can you please post a pic of your rifle when you get it. It sounds like a good project, I do not recall seeing win 86 rifles in Australia.

19 August 2002, 10:44

500grains

quote:
Originally posted by Elk_Man:
How about just loading it with big, hard cast bullets at around 1550-1800 fps and learning to shoot it well?

Those are the ballistics of a modern 12 gauge shotgun slug. Not very impressive.

Nor do they meet the minimum legal requirements for dangerous game in most countries.

19 August 2002, 15:45

Kev

HI,

PC, I plan on doing that when I get it, which I hope will be next month.I hope 500 grain was not saying that a 50-110 has the same ballistics as a 12 gauge shot gun, because it has a hell of a lot more and from a 20 inch barrel with 4 in the tube and one in the chamber. Thanks,Kev

19 August 2002, 15:48

Kev,

I am nearing the end of my custom gun and your always hoping for "next month" in this game. Looking forward to seeing your rifle, I am going to borrow a digital camera and post some pics of my .585 which is now getting fitted out for the stock.

19 August 2002, 17:13

Elk_Man

Hey Rusty Gunn,
You were right!
[Smile]

19 August 2002, 18:13

Rusty Gunn

Elk Man... Unfortunately, 500 Grains can't seem to get beyound the words "45-70" and "levergun".
He gets stuck when he sees them.
He don't seem to understand what Seyfried says of the bullets used in both revolvers and leverguns, concerning both How and Why a hardcast bullet kills. He lacks this knowledge, otherwise he wouldn't be so negitive about it. Poor boy! [Big Grin]

~~~Suluuq

19 August 2002, 19:20

DB Bill

We can argue about this until Janet Reno joins the NRA and becomes a Republican but what will it accomplish. We know a hunter named Vince has taken the Big 6 with a lever-action .45/70 using custom Garrett loads using special cast-lead bullets (as have others)....does this make it a good rifle/cartridge combo for the average hunter..probably not! We can argue that those who use the .375 H&H for buff over one of the .416s is an irresponsible idiot who endangers not only his own life but those who hunt with him but we know that's not true ... don't we?

Just because hunting in Africa with a lever-action "cowboy gun" offends the sensibilites of some us who only love fine walnut stocks, CRF, Leupold scopes and Talley mounts doesn't mean it won't work...at least under good coditions.

I look at some of the "safari" clothing that some wear to Africa and I want to smile....little boys all grown up playing "Bwana"....an of course, they need a "Bwana" rifle to go with the outfit. I bet if some of the more famous PHs endorsed a designer-line of safari gear the sales would save the stock market. [Wink]

19 August 2002, 19:40

Mike375

DB Bill,

You make some good points.

Given my record of increasing the caliber size as the game gets smaller, I would probably use a 243 on buffalo.

I have read quite a few of the lever action postings and think that there are two reasons for the heat.

Firstly, using the 45/70 lever guns in Africa is no different to using 375s and bigger to shoot roos etc. It is what you choose to use for your pleasure. However, a 270 will win the efficiency race everytime over a 375 on the roos etc but not the fun factor [Big Grin]

. I think a mistake the 45/70 people have made is coming across with the idea that the rifle would be superior. Personally, I would imagine the 45/70's main shortfall would be on the non dangerous game. My experience with lever guns was limited to being in the back of a vehichle chasing and shooting roos and also spotlighting. For that it was a waste of time as they are too difficult to reload when bouncing about. Same with spotlight shooting. By that, I don't mean that sort of shooting is available in Africa, but that the lever gun is best in a narrow area of use.

Secondly, this is the high decorum forum and everyone, including myself, that feels like stirring the pot, will pick this forum. This is the only forum on the site where a thread will be started and cause a breakout of threads about the offending thread that far exceed in length the original offending thread.

This forum is possibily as close as many will get to royalty and all the things that go with meeting and dealing with royalty. The whole African hunting scene has the British thing so entrenched it is set in stone.

45/70s, Japanese 378 Wbys, 375 Ultras etc on the high decorum forum are like Australian meat pies at royalty [Big Grin]

Mike

[ 08-19-2002, 11:59: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

19 August 2002, 20:38

Rusty Gunn

Mike... just so you know, I've personnally never said a levergun is superior to anything. But I do believe its more then adequate. It can hold it's own just fine, except in some folks minds who like to use catastrophy as a means to uphold their views, while using it to degrade others of theirs. ~~~Suluuq

19 August 2002, 20:56

Mike375

Suluuq,

Probably my mistake as I was skimming through postings and mainly those that were responding.

But the lever gun is still no good when bouncing around chasing roos or doing the same in the spotlight [Smile]

They are just too hard to reload under those conditions.

Mike

19 August 2002, 22:53

pertinax

Not that I'm trying to fan the flames, but the .45-70 terminal ballistics are NOT similar to that of a 12-gauge shotgun. A 12-gauge slug is .70 diameter, not .45. The sectional density of the .45-70 bullet is much, much higher-- and thus penetration is much, much greater.

Pertinax

20 August 2002, 03:20

ALF

24 August 2002, 16:05

Kev

HI,

I try to get alone with everyone.I have to agree with RUSTY GUN, it seems like 500 grains has a lot of hate toward levers. I do not know why he would, but every post I see from him he tries to say negative things about levers.I have told him about facts pertaining to the 50-110 and he seems like he does not want to see the facts. The win 86 will handle the pressure and yes it will send a 525 grain bullet at 2200fps. I will also get a 570 between 2000-2100 fps and will have no problem of feeding a FN. I have had a 50 Alaskan and had no problem with jams or FN. I think he just has a problem with levers, I personally am not prejudice agaist any gun just because I do not like the action, why would anyone else be. It is not threat to their rifle? Kev

24 August 2002, 16:17

Mike do not want to be argumentitive but i have had good results with a marlin 1894p in .44 rem mag from the back of the ute, it takes 8 in the mag & one up the spout. A 240 gr flatpoint HP does a good job to [Big Grin]

24 August 2002, 16:27

Mike375

PC,

I tried the M94 30/30 many years ago and the problem comes when the thing is out of ammo. I found it it be very cumbersome to reload, especially the magazine while the driver is tearing across the ground.

Mike

24 August 2002, 20:40

<VincentR>

DB Bill, Elk-man, Rusty Gun
I am the guy named Vince and I did take the Big Six (along with about 35 other animals) over 13 months with my Brockman custom Marlin lever rifle loaded with Garrett Cartridges Hammerheads in 540gr and 420gr.
I am not sorry if have offened anyone's sensibilities. After considerable and constant practice and many years of hunting, I found that the rifle action (lever), and cartridge caliber and maker, (45-70 Garrett Hammerhead Cartridges) were what I "knew" would work best for me. I "chose" NOT to use my 416 Rigby, my 458 Win., my 375 Super Mashburn or my double.
I wanted to use a lever rifle, as did Pres. Theodore Roosevelt back in 1908, but I wanted to do it with a modern rifle (Marlin) and modern cartridges (Garrett Hammerheads), AND I DID!
Every animal that I took, including all of the Big Six were taken quickly and humanely! Much of it captured for me by my videographer. It was my dream and my quest and I enjoyed every bit of it (except the time I broke my ankle)!
Moder technology has a way of replacing "older" technology, but it will never replace nostalgia. That is why there are so many people (including myself) who continue to enjoy black powder hunting. But I put a scope on my BP rifle!
Vince

25 August 2002, 05:56

500grains

Relax Kev. When you get your 50-110, please chronograph it and post the results, and tell us about the pressures.

As I have said repeatedly, 570 grains between 2000 and 2100 fps is pretty close to just right. But the bullet should be able to stand up to heavy bone, which will probably mean a monolithic, not a cast bullet. But it's your money, of course.

I have owned and used 2 marlin levers (both 45-70), 2 winchester levers, 1 savage lever, 1 browning lever. I have used them since 1973. They are fun to play with and great for deer hunting. But that's it.

Trying to force a dangerous game caliber into any current production levers just is not possible.

Further, they are of a design that is simply not as reliable as a CRF bolt gun or SxS.

As Kev points out, the 50-110 may be coming close ballistically, if the pressures are reasonable.

But then there is the action issue. Yes, I have had levers jam. Yes, they have jammed with flat nose jacketed soft point bullets. Yes, they are time consuming to get unjammed.

[ 08-24-2002, 20:56: Message edited by: 500grains ]