Much is discussed on many of these forums regarding penetration of various calibres and bullet types. Having much work to do, my mind wanders to more important things like rifles, shooting and hunting. I have much respect for the minds who use this forum so please hear me out.

How much energy is expended in transforming a soft point or hollow point to its final shape after impact? Does this not acount for a substantial energy loss not transferred to the target, which would be lost as energy for penetration and for transfer to the tissue.

Additionally we seem to agree that flat nosed solids including some hard cast cut their way into the target rather than push and therefore could this cutting not account for th eseemingly better penetration as we all know the effort it takes to cut meast with a blunt knife.

So if we take a flat nose solid like a GS FN or a Garrett hard cast in a calibre 458 it is essentially expanded already (no energy lost), it will cut rather than push and therefore the energy available for penetration could be considered to be greater an dthus it produces better penetration than other types.

And one more point, lets call it "splash". If I hit my hand onto water very hard I lose energy in making a splash but when I do it slower I can use that energy more effectively for pushing my hand into the water. Could this effect account for reducing penetration at higher velocities.

I am not looking to confront anybody on the "merits" of bullet makes etc, I am looking for some answers that will enable to get back to doing some "real" work. I look forward to some interesting replies!

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Never a dull day in Africa!!!

Very interesting question.

But wouldn't the perfect bullet be a bullet that expands to it's full potential exit the animal to be picked up next to the animal? In other words passing trough and giving the animal all the energy and still have enough just to exit the animal.

Less friction means less energy being given on the animal with a smaller hole but it will exit. But then again the more expansion the more friction an the more energy is passed. Then there is the weight factor and momemtum as well when it comes to penetration. Tricky one and I don't think I can answer it.

Safari-Hunt

www.Safari-Hunt.com

Jeremy,
How much energy is expended in transforming a soft point or hollow point to its final shape after impact?
I cannot reply to that question, but, intuitively, I would say that a lot of the energy of the bullet is spent this way.
And now I have another question, and that is, how much energy is dissipated in the form of heat transfered to the body of the animal? Does anybody know how much energy is required to increase by 1� centigrade just one liter of water?
The fact that a bullet does not exit an nimal, does not mean its energy has been transfered to that animal, at least in a lethal and useful way.
montero

Jeremy,
I had all those answers 20 years ago, but since that time I have become senile, uninvolved, and my give a s---ter has gone into nuetral...I no longer have the answers, experience blew all my theoritcal knowledge to hell..To answer your question, I have not clue but your pretty close to right I suspect.

Bottomline: everything is a trade off in that you sacrifice one for the other and never the twain shall meet...in other words the correct choice of bullet is a crap shoot.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Montero, if memory serevrs me well, it takes 4.2 kJ to heat 1 litre of water by 1 degree centigrade. So a 500 gr bullet at 2150 has 6956 J of energy which will heat 1 litre by about 1.65 degrees, if the water will absorb all the energy. Not much, but if you think of burning 75 gr of powder it won't heat up much water anyway. At best (100% conversion) will be the energy conversion of propellant to bullet energy.

Jeremy

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Never a dull day in Africa!!!

Jeremy,

The FN has substantially less penetration than a RN.

I shot the 450 gr GS FN at 2450 fps into a stop box like Mike LaGranges and it only went 48 boards compared to 71 boards for the 416 and 458 x 404 (460 GA) with 1-10 twist using 410 Kynoch and 500 Hornady FMJs.

This is not theory but an emperical fact.

I still like the GS FN and would deffinately hunt with it.

I think it is a better bullet because it penetrates less!!!

Te temporary cavity is alot more than a FMJ RN.

How much penetration do you need????

PS the ammount of enery needed to fragment a bullet is very modest. Read MacPherson, Bullet Penetration, the deffinitive work in our lifetime on this science.

Andy

[This message has been edited by Andy (edited 05-17-2002).]

Andy

Thanks for your reply. I will be looking for your reference.This the sort of answers that will get me back to work.

Just to throw a spanner in the works do you think the use of boards is more like hiting something with a cleaver where a sharp point or round nose will do better because it splits rather than cuts.

I guess I have not had enough replies yet so I keep going but I cannot argue with someone who ahs shot GS FN into game and seen the penetration.

Jeremy

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Never a dull day in Africa!!!

The energy necessary to deform a bullet is not lost: its transferred to the flesh ie animal. This and consequently the slowing of the expanded bullet is what we call shock.

This is what constitutes a QUICK kill.

The hole, meaning the mechanical stopping of the heart and collapsing of the lungs and draining of blood will kill for sure, but this takes time.

An animal so tough it hardly "notices" SHOCK; Buff for example, may only be killed by the stopping of its works, which takes time.

Just my opinion, Hermann

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Andy,

The GS Custom FN will not penetrate as far as a conventional roundnose in a media like Lagrange`s stopbox - I agree. BUT on the other hand : If you shoot the same bullets through water containers, then you`ll find that the FN massively outpenetrates any other bulletdesign (maybe except the "superpenetrator"). When we know the water content of an animal body, it`s given that the FN bullets will be the best penetrators on game (maybe except headshots on elephant because penetration of a lot of bone is needed).

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UH

Jeremy,
thanks for your reply, and I believe your memory serves you right. what you reply should teach us is that energy in itself might not be such a good indicator of effectivenss as some would pretend.
a hunting arrow does have an energy comparable to that of a .22lr but it is obvious how much effective and lethal it is, having only a fraction of the energy of a .222 remington.
aHunter,
the energy used to deform the bullet is used to defor the bullet. consequence of its new shape, the bullet will destroy more tissue, but that is another question.
death of an animal is produced by the incapacitation of its neuralgic center, either by a direct impact to the brain or by a coll`pse in its function through the lack of oxygen. lack of oxygen comes from blood loss and sometimes may happen in a fraction of a second when a main artery is severed bu the bullet, dropping the animal in its track.
temporary cavitation has no effect, it is the permanent cavitation, and the destruction of tissue which makes the animal bleed to death.
I do not believe in the existance of shock, a careful autopsy will usually reveal an explanation for a sudden death in a non apparently vital location.
Andy,
I am not sure whether the bullets will behave the same in a live animal than in a wooden board. but, a flat point will produce a larger wound (permanent cavitation) than a round nose. the size if the bullet path of a fn is proportional to its velocity. you may read some very illustrative experiments made by Harald.
this is a very interesting subject and everybody's experience might be a different one. that meaning that I do not want to offend anyone just give my opinion and learn from other people's experiences.
thanks.
montero

Johan Calitz shot an elephant in the left hip, thourgh the bone and the GS FN solid from his 470 stopped in the neck!!!

That is enough penitration and I would think equal to a RN although I suspect the RN, as Andys test show are more penitrative. Like he said how much do you need??

I use the GS FN solids for Buffalo, for the most part) except when testing a new bullet.

I have never had a problem with any of the jacketed solids that I have used. they are 100% positive killers, which is something I cannot say for any soft point, as all softs fail on rare ocassions when over stressed. I know a few monolithic solids (Barnes) have broke in half but I suspect thats a quality control problem...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com