Re: G-MEN AT THE DOOR

02 June 2004, 07:36

LE270

Quote:

I have to disagree with you concerning hunting Zimbabwe. I have been on four safaris to Zim, the last one was in Sept. 2003. I am going back Sept. 2005. I love the country and the people. I have never been shown anything but kindness by everyone I have met there from government officials to the people living in tribal villages.
..........
I think everyone agrees Mugabe and his henchmen need to go. But I will never give up on this country and I will continue to support the HONEST outfitters operating in the country.

The important question right now, I think, is not whether you or anyone loves Zimbabwe and its people. Loving Zimbabwe and its people is good and noble. But the question is whether, given the current circumstances, anyone can hunt there without getting into serious trouble. You say the answer is yes. Perhaps so.

But, as we've seen on this list, Zimbabwe no longer has any clear and strict notion of ownership of property -- either land and/or hunting rights -- no true rule of law, and no clear way of solving these problems. Even if you think you've jumped through all the legal hoops in order to get the necessary hunting rights, you can't be sure that you have done so when the legal situation is as chaotic and undefined as what exists there now.

Moreover, suppose that you have a successful hunt there and that you are not harassed by local authorities -- do you then have any reasonable assurance that your trophies will not be seized by alleged authorities in Zimbabwe, or by others, or by the US, or that you will not be brought up on charges in the US for having violated some US law or regulation? I think the answer to all those questions is no.

Given those threats and imponderables -- threats that are not just theoretical, but that seem real enough, given the experience of other hunters and given the inability of anyone to guarantee reasonable that whoever says he has hunting rights really has them or that those rights will not be seized while you are in the process of going to your hunt or actually hunting, and given the problems with US law and regulations dealing with this situation -- do you really need so badly to hunt in Zimbabwe that you will subject yourself to those risks? It seems foolish to me.

02 June 2004, 09:00

Arts

Some folks choose to sit back and watch when things aren't perfectly smooth, generally missing the show altogether. Others are willing to take some risk and enjoy the lovely show that many miss due to ultra caution. Each must decide for himself when the end justifies the means.

02 June 2004, 10:33

Mike Smith

Zim is a wonderful place and all the people I have met have been great. There are some serious things f'd up right now. We can only hope this will change. However hunting on confiscated land, violating various ethics issues, and flat out breaking the law in some cases? One must make a stand somewhere even if you dont agree with me. I have a problem with people who will do anything as long as it gets the results they want. I dont care if it is politicians, agents, phs, clients or what.

Quote:

Each must decide for himself when the end justifies the means.

Very truly said although I am not sure we are coming from the same point of view.

02 June 2004, 19:12

NitroX

Jesus, some of you guys are worry-warts!

If you have some sense you can pick the shoddy outfitters. Is it a known outfitter? Have they been in business for years? Have they had the concession or private land for more than a year or two? Do they have any references and do any of the Hunt Report databases say anything good or bad about them?

The people flagged have been discussed numerous times on internet forums. Some people have had a previous history with them and tried to defend them. But the fact the same names keep coming up should tell most people something.

"Ooh, Ooh

, I'm not going to do business with anyone! They might be a gangster! "

Of course there is always some risk. If you can't cope with that watch a hunting video and dream about it instead of doing it.

03 June 2004, 02:21

LE270

Quote:

"Ooh, Ooh. I'm not going to do business with anyone! They might be a gangster! "

Of course there is always some risk. If you can't cope with that watch a hunting video and dream about it instead of doing it.

It's true that one can err on the side of too much caution. It's also true that if one is unwilling to undertake risk, nothing will be gained.

But this situation in Zimbabwe now is, I think, more like the one faced by John DeLorean when he tried to build his own car company, and put it in Northern Ireland. That was folly, and any reasonable person would have predicted that he would fail because, among other things, the political-business situation in Northern Ireland was so uncertain and danger-fraught that to attempt to set up a business of that magnitude there was doomed at the beginning.

03 June 2004, 04:38

Die Ou Jagter

Will you are right on as to the Jack Booted law enforcement in this country. H*ll yes it is better than third class nations, but we have been at this freedom thing for over two centuries and it seems we are regressing instead of going forward. As to law enforcement officers I sure don't want to be grouped with them. Their hand is always out wanting the citizen to give them something for nothing be it a free meal, free goods or free professional services, nuff said.

03 June 2004, 05:22

raamw

You should change your handle to " Ou DeE STUPID!"

03 June 2004, 16:10

NitroX

Quote:

If you are paying less than $7K total for a trophy bull buffalo, someone is subsidizing you (like a lost deposit), or the hunt is questionable.

There are lots of short buff hunts there for less than or around US$7K.

03 June 2004, 16:04

jds

Quote:

Will you are right on as to the Jack Booted law enforcement in this country. H*ll yes it is better than third class nations, but we have been at this freedom thing for over two centuries and it seems we are regressing instead of going forward.

And you're saying that this is the fault of law enforcement officers? How about the court system . . . how about the politicians who make the laws . . . how about the public who elect the policitians who make the laws? I don't see where you equate the "jack booted law enforcement" to the regression of society - especially since the laws under which officers work become more and more restrictive. Sorry, your statement doesn't hold water.

Quote:

As to law enforcement officers I sure don't want to be grouped with them. Their hand is always out wanting the citizen to give them something for nothing be it a free meal, free goods or free professional services, nuff said.

No . . . not "nuff said" . . . I love it when people use the word "always" because it is so easy to prove them wrong. Again, I repeat from an earlier posting that there are officers who are "hot dogs". There are some that are dishonest. There are some that should not be officers.

I, for one, do NOT take anything that I do not pay for. I don't take free meals - I don't take discounts - and as a supervisor for many years, my officers had better not let me find out that they took anything. I'm of the opinion that I draw a paycheck just like anyone else and I will pay just like anyone else.

Don't generalize . . . it makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

Thanks, and have a great day!

JDS