SCI Action on the elephant issue

16 April 2014, 23:44

Indy

Someone needs a more strategic plan than "just show up in DC on may 8."

First of all, how many members of SCI are there, anyway? How many hunt elephants?

Second, how do we get hunters of other game on our side? The issue should be protecting all hunting from capricious idiotic decisions, and not to allow elephants to be separated from rabbits. What about folding the whole thing under the NRA? SCI would talk to them.

Third, how do we leverage the fact that most elephant hunters are RELATIVELY WELL FIXED, and in a position to support politicians?

Fourth, there are a lot of congress people on our side. How do we get them to DO something?

Finally, everyone here should be an NRA member (there is currently a $300 sale on being a Life Member), should register to vote, should vote for whichever Republican you like in the primaries, and vote for whomever the Republicans nominate in the general election. Doing otherwise is a vote for Obama (or Hillary), and a vote to end hunting.

17 April 2014, 00:07

JTEX

quote:
So typical, everyone has lots of advice on why everything being done won't work and no ideas on what to do or worse yet ideas that strain credulity (e.g., just get the morally and financially bankrupt African countries to step up and do right). I guess we should just fold the tent and go home? Not me. I will work the system and see what happens. I would rather go down swinging my hands than wringing my hands. My reservations for DC are made.

Mike

Outstanding! Thank you!

.

17 April 2014, 00:46

Dog Man

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
So typical, everyone has lots of advice on why everything being done won't work and no ideas on what to do or worse yet ideas that strain credulity (e.g., just get the morally and financially bankrupt African countries to step up and do right). I guess we should just fold the tent and go home? Not me. I will work the system and see what happens. I would rather go down swinging my hands than wringing my hands. My reservations for DC are made.

Thank you Mike

17 April 2014, 00:54

bwana cecil

quote:
What about folding the whole thing under the NRA? SCI would talk to them.

The NRA is a one issue organization & I for one want them to continue fighting for my second amendment rights, not diluting themselves & their resources anywhere else.
I certainly want to hunt an elephant & want to support others as well, but my 2nd amendment right protects my right to be a free man & that is way more important to me.
SCI & DSC are the correct organizations to fight this issue.

17 April 2014, 01:20

Dutch44

quote:
The NRA is a one issue organization & I for one want them to continue fighting for my second amendment rights, not diluting themselves & their resources anywhere else.
I certainly want to hunt an elephant & want to support others as well, but my 2nd amendment right protects my right to be a free man & that is way more important to me.
SCI & DSC are the correct organizations to fight this issue.

It is my understanding that the NRA does involve itself into hunter's issues promoting legislation to protect hunters rights, etc... No reason why they should not be involved. They carry a lot of clout as a lobbying organization.

Dutch

17 April 2014, 02:15

larryshores

Gentlemen:

I recently hosted the NRA president on a turkey hunt. He told me of a new NRA initiative called the NRA Hunters Leadership Forum.

I am told by the local NRA guy that the NRA is aware of this and will be involved.

17 April 2014, 02:19

Beretta682E

quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
Gentlemen:

I recently hosted the NRA president on a turkey hunt. He told me of a new NRA initiative called the NRA Hunters Leadership Forum.

I am told by the local NRA guy that the NRA is aware of this and will be involved.

NRA has bigger issue than the Elephant hunting/importing restriction.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04...enge-to-the-nra.html

Bloomberg has a lot more than this to go.

I hate the fact I pay this f*cker $2000 a month for a terminal. I just cancelled one and now have one on contract.

Mike

17 April 2014, 02:24

AilsaWheels

quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
From: Safari Club International <safariclub@info.safariclub.org>
Date: April 10, 2014 at 4:08:39 PM EDT

Subject: LITIGATION ALERT: U.S. FWS Suspension of Elephant Imports From Zimbabwe, Tanzania
Reply-To: Safari Club International <safariclub_2F084DC447BD78279088A0FF3ABEEA87@info.safariclub.org>

Dear SCI Members:

On April 4, 2014, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service announced an immediate ban on the importation of sport-hunted elephant trophies from Zimbabwe and Tanzania. The ban will apply to trophies from elephants hunted on or after January 1, 2014 (trophies hunted in 2013 or before and trophies already imported into the U.S. will not be affected by the ban).

SCI is collecting information to determine the extent of the impact of this ban on our members. If you are an SCI member and fall into one of the following categories, please contact us by e-mail (aseidman@safariclub.org) at your earliest opportunity and tell us how the ban is affecting or will affect you:

1) You successfully hunted an elephant in Zimbabwe or Tanzania in 2014 and have not yet imported the trophy into the United States; or
2) You are currently on or are en route to an elephant hunt in Zimbabwe or Tanzania; or
3) You have an elephant hunt planned for Zimbabwe or Tanzania in 2014 and have already made a financial commitment towards the hunt.

If you are not an SCI member, please do not respond to this e-mail. Please do not forward this e-mail to friends and colleagues who are not SCI members. We are attempting to collect data from SCI members only.

Thank you.

If you no longer wish to receive email from us, please Unsubscribe here. Thanks.

The following is the body of a letter written to my senators, congressman and forwarded to SCI. The day has been spent educating congressional staffers who have no clue but some at least seem to care. My letter is very narrow and certainly doesn't cover the entire situation but I feel it may be the only way I can successfully import the elephant.

I am not sure what will happen but as Mike Jines mentioned, I will go down swinging as well.

Dear Senator,

On March 22, 2014, I travelled to Zimbabwe to hunt elephant. This has been a lifelong dream including years of saving money to afford this opportunity.

Hunting elephant is legal in Zimbabwe and the proper licensing procedures were followed. On March 30, 2014, I was successful in taking an elephant.

On April 4, 2014, United States Fish and Wildlife announced that legally taken sport-hunted elephant from Zimbabwe wouldn’t be allowed to enter the United States, and back-dated the effective date to January 1, 2014.

http://www.fws.gov/news/ShowNe...2BC-DAE08807810E3C6B

I have spent money to hunt elephant, been successful, and that money has now been changed into private property, i.e.: ivory, skin in various forms, etc. Due to a back-dated ruling by USFW, I cannot now bring that private property into my country or state. USFW has effectively “taken” my private property without compensation or due process contrary to the Fifth Amendment.

As one of your constituents, I ask for your help in interceding with USFW on my behalf to allow my private property to legally enter the United States that I may enjoy that property in my home.

Your Humble Constituent,

17 April 2014, 04:03

SBT

Good job.

17 April 2014, 08:32

Joe Savikataaq Jr

If sci is only looking for members names, maybe they should not call them selves "SCI first for HUNTERS"?

17 April 2014, 09:06

Saeed

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
I still contend that hunters need a unified voice. Pheasant hunters to elephant hunters.

Something modeling NRA.

Jeff

So Jeff, do we sit around and wait for that to happen or take action as best we can now? What you describe is great aspirationally, but it does not exist now. I say we use the infrastructure we have and get our butts in gear.

From all the bullshit we hear from what SCI is doing for us, this should never have happened!

Every time we ask where the money is going, we are told most goes for political "lobbying".

So what happened here?

17 April 2014, 09:23

crbutler

Saeed,

I have to respectfully disagree.

You have seen how many around here view the current US administration. Having them come up with something out of the blue with a lack of due diligence has been a habit of theirs for the past 6 or so years.

How one could expect a lobbying group that is opposed to most of what they want to do to get an inside track on something that very few in the government would have known about until they decided to do it is unreasonable.

I remember talking with Al Maki at the convention. He was quite concerned about Lion, but while he thought Elephant would be the next big push, he confidently told me that it couldn't happen for 2 years due to the due process required.

He was wrong. They decided to do this outside of the proper way and channels.

It goes to show us Americans need to be much more careful every other November than we have been. It can bollux up the rest of the world, unfortunately, if we don't.

17 April 2014, 09:46

lavaca

Nice letter Wheels, you should sue. You have standing and I like the case.

17 April 2014, 09:57

Anjin

quote:
Originally posted by bwana cecil:
I am happy with SCI for their response to this issue & believe they are doing their best to make a difference.
They may be urinating into the wind, but I would rather them do what they are doing than nothing.
Our U.S. senators & representatives are very powerful people when dealing with agencies that rely on them for funding.
I recently had problems with 2 agencies here in our state over licenses that we needed for a business, on our own we could not get anything done. 1 call to our state senator & they started calling us letting us know just how quickly we could expect our licenses.
Lobbying ain't just about passing laws!

Very good point. Good for them. I haven't been an SCI member for years, and I do not always agree with everything they do, but I think that it is fine for it to take an independent stand.

Others can join in, but if SCI has a strategy for which it feels it useful counting members in order to qualify for legal standing to sue, let's not complain about that.

17 April 2014, 10:51

Beretta682E

quote:
Originally posted by lavaca:
Nice letter Wheels, you should sue. You have standing and I like the case.

+1000

This is far more effective that anything else. You can also get some real legal fire power form parties that actual care about the law and admistrative process.

Mike

17 April 2014, 16:04

Bwana Bunduki

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
I still contend that hunters need a unified voice. Pheasant hunters to elephant hunters.

Something modeling NRA.

Jeff

Exactly where did I say that? We are behind the 8 ball and running behind. We should exercise every option available. HOWEVER if we don't get better we are screwed. Still waiting to hear from SCI for Lobby day.

Jeff

So Jeff, do we sit around and wait for that to happen or take action as best we can now? What you describe is great aspirationally, but it does not exist now. I say we use the infrastructure we have and get our butts in gear.

17 April 2014, 16:57

ledvm

quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:

It goes to show us Americans need to be much more careful every other November than we have been. It can bollux up the rest of the world, unfortunately, if we don't.

Now "that" is a true statement!

18 April 2014, 02:31

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
I still contend that hunters need a unified voice. Pheasant hunters to elephant hunters.

Something modeling NRA.

Jeff

So Jeff, do we sit around and wait for that to happen or take action as best we can now? What you describe is great aspirationally, but it does not exist now. I say we use the infrastructure we have and get our butts in gear.

From all the bullshit we hear from what SCI is doing for us, this should never have happened!

Every time we ask where the money is going, we are told most goes for political "lobbying".

So what happened here?

You should spend a little less time looking in the rearview mirror and being critical and more time focused on the future and being constructive. Forget about what got us here, what would you do now? Call SCI names and pout? Take some of your energy spent complaining and criticizing and direct it to being more productive for once.

18 April 2014, 03:18

Steve Ahrenberg

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
I still contend that hunters need a unified voice. Pheasant hunters to elephant hunters.

Something modeling NRA.

Jeff

So Jeff, do we sit around and wait for that to happen or take action as best we can now? What you describe is great aspirationally, but it does not exist now. I say we use the infrastructure we have and get our butts in gear.

From all the bullshit we hear from what SCI is doing for us, this should never have happened!

Every time we ask where the money is going, we are told most goes for political "lobbying".

So what happened here?

You should spend a little less time looking in the rearview mirror and being critical and more time focused on the future and being constructive. Forget about what got us here, what would you do now? Call SCI names and pout? Take some of your energy spent complaining and criticizing and direct it to being more productive for once.

Hey Mike,

I really respect your passion and desire to put bemoaning into action.

If you look at the current state of society, it is actually surprising to me that we as International Sport Hunters, have had it so good, for so long.

Despite the high cost of Safari hunting, it has been the dream of most of us here to hunt Africa. For the most part, this (AR) demographic has succeeded.

Point here is; We are relics, we live in days gone by. Society has chosen leaders that represent them, their environmental and philosophical beliefs. Sport hunting is not one of them.

My personal belief is that, there are just too few of us left. Most un-informed, rank and file Americans believe that Elephants are endangered as are Lions. We don't have the media, in fact, just the opposite is true. If a real conservation message were to get out, how would it get out?

When I was on the BOD of the Phoenix Chapter, we realized something. There is a "Lost Generation" of American sportsman. That's when this started. Fathers quit sharing their passion for the outdoors with their sons and daughters.

As CHC continually states, fighting amongst ourselves produces nothing but animosity.

Best,

Steve

18 April 2014, 04:55

Orvar

I am ready to support almost anyone who will fight GFW , including SCI , dSc and NRA. All paid up.

18 April 2014, 05:00

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
I still contend that hunters need a unified voice. Pheasant hunters to elephant hunters.

Something modeling NRA.

Jeff

So Jeff, do we sit around and wait for that to happen or take action as best we can now? What you describe is great aspirationally, but it does not exist now. I say we use the infrastructure we have and get our butts in gear.

From all the bullshit we hear from what SCI is doing for us, this should never have happened!

Every time we ask where the money is going, we are told most goes for political "lobbying".

So what happened here?

You should spend a little less time looking in the rearview mirror and being critical and more time focused on the future and being constructive. Forget about what got us here, what would you do now? Call SCI names and pout? Take some of your energy spent complaining and criticizing and direct it to being more productive for once.

Hey Mike,

I really respect your passion and desire to put bemoaning into action.

If you look at the current state of society, it is actually surprising to me that we as International Sport Hunters, have had it so good, for so long.

Despite the high cost of Safari hunting, it has been the dream of most of us here to hunt Africa. For the most part, this (AR) demographic has succeeded.

Point here is; We are relics, we live in days gone by. Society has chosen leaders that represent them, their environmental and philosophical beliefs. Sport hunting is not one of them.

My personal belief is that, there are just too few of us left. Most un-informed, rank and file Americans believe that Elephants are endangered as are Lions. We don't have the media, in fact, just the opposite is true. If a real conservation message were to get out, how would it get out?

When I was on the BOD of the Phoenix Chapter, we realized something. There is a "Lost Generation" of American sportsman. That's when this started. Fathers quit sharing their passion for the outdoors with their sons and daughters.

As CHC continually states, fighting amongst ourselves produces nothing but animosity.

Best,

Steve

The flaw in that logic is that it assumes that policy is made based on the views of society as a whole or a majority. That is a fallacy. Policy is made in many cases by a vocal, well organized and well funded minority. That has been the reality in politics for decades. We just need to play the game the way others play it to win.

18 April 2014, 05:00

ledvm

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

Point here is; We are relics, we live in days gone by. Society has chosen leaders that represent them, their environmental and philosophical beliefs. Sport hunting is not one of them.

Best,

Steve

That is a fact...we are relics...remnants of the past. But for me...that is a proud fact as the past was a better time...but to never return.

But I am going to fight like hell to preserve what's left of it for as long as I breath air.

18 April 2014, 06:13

Steve Ahrenberg

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
I still contend that hunters need a unified voice. Pheasant hunters to elephant hunters.

Something modeling NRA.

Jeff

So Jeff, do we sit around and wait for that to happen or take action as best we can now? What you describe is great aspirationally, but it does not exist now. I say we use the infrastructure we have and get our butts in gear.

From all the bullshit we hear from what SCI is doing for us, this should never have happened!

Every time we ask where the money is going, we are told most goes for political "lobbying".

So what happened here?

You should spend a little less time looking in the rearview mirror and being critical and more time focused on the future and being constructive. Forget about what got us here, what would you do now? Call SCI names and pout? Take some of your energy spent complaining and criticizing and direct it to being more productive for once.

Hey Mike,

I really respect your passion and desire to put bemoaning into action.

If you look at the current state of society, it is actually surprising to me that we as International Sport Hunters, have had it so good, for so long.

Despite the high cost of Safari hunting, it has been the dream of most of us here to hunt Africa. For the most part, this (AR) demographic has succeeded.

Point here is; We are relics, we live in days gone by. Society has chosen leaders that represent them, their environmental and philosophical beliefs. Sport hunting is not one of them.

My personal belief is that, there are just too few of us left. Most un-informed, rank and file Americans believe that Elephants are endangered as are Lions. We don't have the media, in fact, just the opposite is true. If a real conservation message were to get out, how would it get out?

When I was on the BOD of the Phoenix Chapter, we realized something. There is a "Lost Generation" of American sportsman. That's when this started. Fathers quit sharing their passion for the outdoors with their sons and daughters.

As CHC continually states, fighting amongst ourselves produces nothing but animosity.

Best,

Steve

The flaw in that logic is that it assumes that policy is made based on the views of society as a whole or a majority. That is a fallacy. Policy is made in many cases by a vocal, well organized and well funded minority. That has been the reality in politics for decades. We just need to play the game the way others play it to win.

I agree Mike. My point is that even though our leaders may not represent the majority opinion, on this issue, they do. Killing Elephants and Lions will absolutely never ever be accepted, regardless the science.

That was my entire point on the whole Lion thing. "The first rule about fight club…Don't talk about fight club."

I am a avid bicycle racer. I have my "Big 5" tattooed on my outer lower legs. I am a pariah in my sport because I chose to hunt, My son is chided at school because he is proud of his fathers hunting accomplishments.

I'm not surrendering, I am simply laying out the facts. In order to mount a credible defense, one must completely understand his opponents strength's and his own weaknesses. Our weakness is numbers. Having science and the facts on our side won't do it. Public opinion is what needs to be swayed.

All the facts show that global warming is a fallacy. That doesn't stop the "carbon credit" bunch from going crazy.

Al Gore is worth 200 million dollars, brokering carbon credits.

The same ol' responses from the same ol' bunch at SCI and the NRA will not do it. It needs to come from younger, more hip folks.

Just look what happened to Donald Trumps sons for hunting. They didn't quit hunting, they quit talking about hunting. (Don't talk about fight club)

Fucking social media is our enemy. Always has been and always will be. Even this venue in which we are discussing this right now is unhealthy for the betterment of our passions.

Just the way I see things.

Steve

19 April 2014, 03:17

AilsaWheels

quote:
Originally posted by lavaca:
Nice letter Wheels, you should sue. You have standing and I like the case.

Thanks. USFW must have agreed with you. With their new ruling I am a happy camper.

Hopefully all or other parts of their ruling will be revised as well.

19 April 2014, 07:21

Full Roar

Original quote by MJines[/QUOTE]

The flaw in that logic is that it assumes that policy is made based on the views of society as a whole or a majority. That is a fallacy. Policy is made in many cases by a vocal, well organized and well funded minority. That has been the reality in politics for decades. We just need to play the game the way others play it to win.[/QUOTE]

Could not have hit it more precisely on the fucking head than that
policy for years has not been made for the majority - its been made by/for the outspoken minorities
Indians, Asians. Blacks, Hispanics, gays, religious zealots, save the whale, save the wild horse, Sierra Club, PETA, snails are life forms too, etc.
What we need to figure out is what they are doing to get all the feds (and positive media) attention and start passing laws protecting our way of life and "alternative" lifestyle. Social media Has to be our tool just as it is for all the other minorities. Face the facts "WE" are a minority
I think its a bit above my pay grade (intelligence)but I bet a couple guys on here can figure it out
Its a awful good thing to have a couple full blown attorneys on our team