458WinMag vs. 416Rigby

31 March 2002, 12:34

For many many many years, I always heard that a 416Rigby launching a 400gr bullet at a nomimal speed of about 2400 fps is an excellent DGR for Africa.

I wonder, why, by the same token a 458WinMag, launching a 450gr bullet at about 2350fps is not at the same level of efficiency...

Please, don't start with Sectional Density thing...that is simply BS...

I would like to hear some good opinions. Tks!!

31 March 2002, 12:49

Buell98

Gustavo-

Both will kill anything on this planet with little trouble, so long as you put the bullet in the right place.

Just use whatever you want to...

31 March 2002, 13:10

Zero Drift

Gustavo - Having shot both calibers for some time, I lean towards the .416 Rigby. At 40 yards, either caliber is good for dangerous game. As you pointed out, you can select a lighter .458 caliber and come close to the velocity of 400gr .416.

From my own personal experience, the .416 offers better penetration on quartering or frontal shots on game over the .458 WinMag. The .416 is certainly flatter shooting than the .458. And recoil is quite manageable.

At the end of the day, you are splitting hairs to a degree. However, I still lean towards the .416 400gr at 2400fps. It just works...

31 March 2002, 13:25

ALF

31 March 2002, 14:13

John S

Alf,
When you say that your two 416 Rigbys are simply too expensive to use, are you referring to the rifles themselves?
For ammo, a person can reload them at a very marginally higher cost than 416 Remingtons.

31 March 2002, 14:23

Oldsarge

A genuine Rigby and a Johannson? John, he's GOT to be talking about the rifles! Would I be wrong in estimating over $30K for the pair?

31 March 2002, 14:27

Nickudu

Hi Gustavo,
The heavier bullet of larger diameter, at essentially the same muzzle velocity, would be the better killer, especially on frontal chest shots. I think the various .416's are superb choices and are indeed more versatile and shootable than larger cartridges. At the same time, common sense, borne out by personal experience, tells me the .458 loading you describe delivers the heavier blow. Having used the 450 grain "X" bullet in my .458 Lott at 2,450+ fps on buffalo, I am of the opinion that it hits noticably harder than my .416's. A devastating buffalo loading.

31 March 2002, 15:18

John S

Sarge,
Without knowing the value of the Johansen rifle I can't say. I know that Champlin's have had an original Rigby 416 for sale @$14,500 for some time, so....your guess might be really close! However, there are a number of hunters packing double rifles that are worth that much so who knows!

31 March 2002, 15:38

Gustavo

For those who think of the .416Rigby as more suitable for long shots, thus more versatile than the .458WinMag, here goes some ballistics data.

Both guns zeroed 2 inches high at 100yds.

.416Rigby
400 gr Barnes "X"
2400 fps MV
PBR : 210yds
Max PBR : 245yds
Path 150yds : -1.5in
Path 200yds : -4.9in
Energy 100yds : 4484 ft/pounds
Energy 200yds : 3917 ft/pounds

.458WinMag
450 gr Barnes "X"
2350fps
PBR : 205yds
Max PBR : 240yds
Path 150yds : -1.7in
Energy 100yds : 4754 ft/pounds
Energy 200yds : 4079 ft/pounds
Path 200yds : -5.3in

I'm using, what I regards as the best "all around" bullet for the .458WinMag, the 450 grainer Barnes "X", and IMHO the weight that should be loaded in that cartridge, having a good balance for both short and long shots.

These data is real and chrono tested.

Apart from personal preferences, I guess that the somewhat "underrated" Winchester have an edge where the Rigby stops.

BTW, very fine and reasonable replys!

Tks!!

31 March 2002, 15:43

ALF

31 March 2002, 15:55

ALF

31 March 2002, 16:02

John S

Alf,
Will do!

31 March 2002, 17:08

JJHACK

Gustavo, How have you been? I have not heard from you in a while now! I have a post on this site in regards to my 458 Lott. I wish to try the 450 grian X bullet as I think it will be short enough to get a full charge of powderin the case. Is it the same length as the 500 grain Hornady? What Powder are you using with the 450 grain and how much? I should think the Lott will shoot it faster then 2400 making it even flatter then the trajectories you have posted here. Probably a load of recoil with that bullet too! I am hoping the X bullet will shoot out of this PacNor barrel on my Lott.

Good to see you here on this site, When are we hunting again? Lets make a plan for 2003, my wife will be along again next year in Africa. This year she will stay behind and take care of the new little guy we have.jj

31 March 2002, 18:53

Heritage Arms

I like and have used both with great success in clients hands it is a different story. I have watched buffalo take multiple rounds of both with premium bullets. Elephant, I have seen dropped with one shot out of a .375. While the .458's and the .416's had to shoot several shots. Regarless of calibre shot placemnet is paramount. I have used the 450 grs Swift A frames in my short barreled BRNO and have killed lots of game with it. My experiance with two.416's is that the Rigby and the Remington are viable and potent rounds only with the 400grs bullets, the 350 duplicates the .375 too much hence does not make the round a step up from the .375. From my personal experiance I like the .458, however the .416 Rem mag for my Blaser r 93 really makes me think about this question too.

01 April 2002, 01:29

Nickudu

The 400 grain .416 is definitely easier to shoot at distance than is the Lott, even with the 450 grainers.

01 April 2002, 06:37

<700Nitro>

from what i have read, winchester dropped the 458 because of the 416 being a better cartridge. but just from what i know about the 458 and read about it, i would much rather have the 458, though slower, its been around forever and was the most popular DG cartridge for along time. i have some 450 510 gr. speer RN soft points that i bought for my collection.

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Hunt Smart, Hunt Safe

01 April 2002, 07:06

Atkinson

the 450 gr. 458 is a proven failure on ocassions..apparantly it lacks the penitration of th 510 gr. bullet..I have heard a number of complaints on it from PH's who should be in the know....

I will take the 416 anyday over the weak and failure prone 458 win. Where there is all that smoke their must be fire.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

01 April 2002, 07:30

Shumba

Ray,

With respect to the 450 grain bullet in the 458 Win Mag, I thought that Gerard had good luck with it and suggests this weight for the .458 Win Mag.

On my recent buffalo hunt, I loaded 500 grain bullets in my .458 at just about 2,100 fps (24" barrel using IMR3031). However, when it finally came time to shoot my buffalo (morning of day 4) I was carrying my .375 H&H with 300 grain Swift A-Frames and Barnes solids.

If I would have waited a couple of minutes, it would have been a 1 shot kill using the 300 grain A-Frame, but I wasn't there to save ammo, so I gave him a couple of 300 grain Barnes solids for good measure.

For my next buffalo hunt, I have given serious thought to loading the 450 grain Swift A-Frames in the 458, backed up with 500 grain Hornady solids.

Would you not feel comfortable with the 450 grain Swift A-Frame at 2,200 fps for buffalo?

Tim

01 April 2002, 08:48

Atkinson

Tim,
I would not feel comfortable with 450 gr. bullets except perhaps in a Monolithic, still I prefer the 500 anyway you cut it and thats argueable for sure....

A 458 handloaded to 2100 or more FPS with a 500 gr. bullet is acceptable if it doesn't get you a sticky bolt in the African heat..

No doubt about it, I'm not a 458 Win. fan as I consider it to have to many problems and was a freak of nature by design...the 458 Lott should have been the Winchester choice...

The ONLY reason it was ever popular is because for a very long time it was the only whore in town...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

01 April 2002, 12:54

Nickudu

The "SD" of the 450 grain .458 bullet is the same as the 300 grain .375. Many .458 users have found the Barnes 450 "X" & Super Solids bullets at 2,250 fps to be a highly effective buffalo loading and a viable alternative to hot, compressed 500 grain loads.

[This message has been edited by Nickudu (edited 04-01-2002).]

01 April 2002, 13:45

JJHACK

Several of the PH's I work with or have in the past used the 450 Barnes X in their 458 Win Mags and in the 458 Lott and could not say enough good things about it. One of them in particular shot a zebra on a follow up for a client. It was the first X bullet he ever recovered from his Lott. From the butt end of the Zebra the bullet was recovered in the skin of the throat perfectly mushroomed but with two petals missing.

That was about a 50-60 yard shot. Now I figure with the velocity of about 2000-2100 FPS at impact or maybe a little more from his rifle if a zebra can break two petals from a big 458 bullet then any additional velocity cannot be good for the bullets integrity.

This is just one occasion but I have seen enough exits from X bullets over the years to see when they exited with the petals open and intact and when they did not open, or exited with the petals broken off. There is a huge difference in the exit hole

I'm hoping my Lott will shoot them well. I'll know by the end of the week. Unlike the majortiy of Americans the PH's usually don't shoot the all powerful high velocity max loads many in the USA claim as a minimum. The majority I have worked with load down everything from 375HH to 458 Lott. Most use 2500fps 300 grain loads in the 375HH and 2100 to 2200 for the Lott with 450-500 grain bullets. I guess on a daily basis the heat and pressure has caused more problems then lack of penetration for many of us. I think it all boils down to the old 480 grain bullet at 2150 from the 470 nitro express. The standard DG load for probably 50 years. Hard to argue that, especially with the new bullets available today. Certainly the much better solids, bonded, and "X" bullet technology would have improved the 470 by a significant margin in it's heyday.

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It seems there is never enough time to do things right, but always enough time to do them over

02 April 2002, 07:36

Gustavo

The idea was to discuss both cartridges merits without resorting to "personal tastes"...seems Ray, cannot go with this...

Ok, but he was honest as always with his feelings and that's is very valuable, you can know where the man stands.

But the issue remains the same...the .416 or the .375 are excellent killers with lighter bullets and of course, with less diameter...seems that if we follow this path the .223Rem could be a formidable DGR...who knows???

It's fantastic!! how people can get emotional and let the heart not the brain guide their judgements!

Seems that the only answer are below or above the .458WinMag (say the Lott, which I love) but never in the middle. A paradox of ballistics ??

But, as many testimonied here lots of PHs and clients have shot DG with the .458Win using the 450grainers (premium bullets) and had great results, being first good shooters who can put the load where it should. One shot kills are no exception.

In other words, nobody could argue that the .458Win is a "freak by design", indeed a great old timer, very successful and tested time after time. A classic in its own right.

BTW, 2150fps in a 24" barrel are very feasible to obtain, just go with the right powder. And 500 grainers are not the sole answer to the .458WinMag...

Fortunately enough, we a have a lot of cartridges to fo our job, so everybody can be happy!

But the main question remains, is the .416Rigby a better cartridge, given a credible scientific reasoning or it's pure marketing hype?

Regards, Gustavo

02 April 2002, 07:41

Gustavo

quote:
Originally posted by JJHACK:
Gustavo, How have you been? I have not heard from you in a while now! I have a post on this site in regards to my 458 Lott. I wish to try the 450 grian X bullet as I think it will be short enough to get a full charge of powderin the case. Is it the same length as the 500 grain Hornady? What Powder are you using with the 450 grain and how much? I should think the Lott will shoot it faster then 2400 making it even flatter then the trajectories you have posted here. Probably a load of recoil with that bullet too! I am hoping the X bullet will shoot out of this PacNor barrel on my Lott.
Good to see you here on this site, When are we hunting again? Lets make a plan for 2003, my wife will be along again next year in Africa. This year she will stay behind and take care of the new little guy we have.jj

Hi Jim! good to hear from you again! I'm always surprised to learn from you, how a balanced point of view, is possible!

You know, Africa is in my heart and I'll to go back next year to join Tatia, you and the rest of the crew for a formidable time again!

Sure, we can start making plans. BTW from April 13th to the 20th I'll be in Seattle attending a global conference, please drop by to have a good chat if you can. My pleasure to see you again!

Regards, Gustavo