Matador vs. Cape Buffalo

29 December 2013, 22:26

While I DO respect the tradition, pomp, and excitement of a Spanish Bullfight, I do find myself rooting and feeling pity for the Bull...especially when the "darts" are inserted between the bulls shoulder blades to weaken it.

Imagine a Matador in the arena with a Cape Buffalo....now that's a Bullfight that I would pay to see!

I think that after a minute or so there would be an unrecognizable mass of bloody flesh wearing sequins lying in the dirt.

Whatdaya think??

And yes I am Bored Today!

29 December 2013, 22:35

Jefffive

I think those darts better be at least 400 grains moving 2100 fps or better...

29 December 2013, 22:36

Todd Williams

Of course here in the States, my favorite event in Rodeo is bull riding. I'd like to see some Cape Buffalo riding for once!

29 December 2013, 22:39

Saeed

At the risk of being told off, I think bull riders are braver than bull fighters.

Frankly, I never found bull fighting of any interest at all.

Not after I saw how they send someone on a horse to do all the damage before the matador goes in to finish it off.

29 December 2013, 22:39

SteveGl

I figure the balls of the average bullfighter are about 10X the size of the average cape-buff hunter ...

... and no wonder you're bored, you live in NYC.

29 December 2013, 22:41

Saeed

quote:
Originally posted by SteveGl:
I figure the balls of the average bullfighter are about 10X the size of the average cape-buff hunter ...

... and no wonder you're bored, you live in NYC.

Steve,

If the bull fighter fights a bull that has not been crippled to the point of dying of blood loss, I would agree with you.

29 December 2013, 22:56

Todd Williams

quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
At the risk of being told off, I think bull riders are braver than bull fighters.

Frankly, I never found bull fighting of any interest at all.

Not after I saw how they send someone on a horse to do all the damage before the matador goes in to finish it off.

My entire experience with Bull Fights is limited to watching a couple of afternoon events in Mexico when I was a young boy. That said, I hope I'm not speaking from a position of ignorance, but I have to agree with you Saeed. It certainly seems that the matador is dealing with an animal that has been significantly diminished before he even steps into the ring. For that reason, it doesn't interest me either.

29 December 2013, 23:53

bobby7321

quote:
Originally posted by SteveGl:
I figure the balls of the average bullfighter are about 10X the size of the average cape-buff hunter ...

... and no wonder you're bored, you live in NYC.

oh without a doubt!

----

do we really want to discuss what a "fair fight" would be on a hunting forum? I mean come on.

Not to mention that actual humans interact with the bull before he is weakened. But I guess we could all be banderilleros, no big deal right? many times the matador puts them in as well.

For those us of who have actually witnessed a proper spanish bullfight or a rejoneo (amazing), we know that its much more than what you see on a youtube clip. I grew up watching bullfights every summer in spain. Only when I was an adult did I appreciate the event as a whole.

30 December 2013, 00:06

Leopardtrack

Bobby,

So what are you saying??

30 December 2013, 00:16

bobby7321

quote:
Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Bobby,

So what are you saying??

well I guess I was sidetracked by the other comments. I think it would be interesting, and I bet if you threw a cape buffalo in the ring it might not be as lopsided as you would think

30 December 2013, 00:25

209jones

I used to like watching the "get the ribbon off the bull" contests. There were always a few guys getting flung.

30 December 2013, 00:26

Biebs

quote:
That said, I hope I'm not speaking from a position of ignorance,

Todd, not to worry...we're used to it by now :-)

30 December 2013, 01:38

D R Hunter

The spearing by the characters on horses is mainly
to wreck the muscles of the bull's neck. Once en-
ough tissue is damaged the bull is FAR less capable
of injuring the matador compared to a bull who has
not been assaulted so unfairly.

30 December 2013, 03:09

SteveGl

quote:
Originally posted by D R Hunter: The spearing by the characters on horses is mainly to wreck the muscles of the bull's neck. Once enough tissue is damaged the bull is FAR less capable of injuring the matador compared to a bull who has not been assaulted so unfairly.

That's the animal-rights perspective in a nutshell; no different from saying that any rifle-hunted animal is assaulted unfairly.

I expect the tradition of having the Picadors and Banderilleros perform their part before the Matador makes the final kill arose because facing a vigorous fighting bull with only sword and cape would be akin to suicide; and many brazen young Spaniards were probably killed attempting to do just that before the spectacle was refined into the great tradition that it is today.

30 December 2013, 03:24

Nakihunter

Let me play the devil's advocate a bit

When a buffalo is wounded it is extremely dangerous. It might have been hit in the lungs or guts of shoulder. Does that not weaken the buffalo?

How is that different to a bull in a ring that has a few jabs in its shoulders? Is that bull sick & weak or just wound up and more aggressive?

30 December 2013, 10:37

georgeld

Back about 1970 I went to Reynosa and watched a bull fight. There was no spear from a horse that day.

The whole ordeal of torturing the bull with those darts made me sick and I left before it was over with. One of the horses was gored right in front of me too and it had full padding on, yet still got a horn buried in it's side. The rider jumped off and shot the horse right then.

Just my opinion and some of them suck and offend others. Take it as it's written.
George

30 December 2013, 13:30

Saeed

quote:
Originally posted by SteveGl:
quote:
Originally posted by D R Hunter: The spearing by the characters on horses is mainly to wreck the muscles of the bull's neck. Once enough tissue is damaged the bull is FAR less capable of injuring the matador compared to a bull who has not been assaulted so unfairly.

That's the animal-rights perspective in a nutshell; no different from saying that any rifle-hunted animal is assaulted unfairly.

I expect the tradition of having the Picadors and Banderilleros perform their part before the Matador makes the final kill arose because facing a vigorous fighting bull with only sword and cape would be akin to suicide; and many brazen young Spaniards were probably killed attempting to do just that before the spectacle was refined into the great tradition that it is today.

Steve,

I have absolutely no problem with the tradition of bull fighting continuing.

In fact, I am a firm believer in following traditions, regardless of our present day PC policies.

That does not alter the fact that we do have our own opinions of bull fighting.

Bloody hell, I think cricket and American football as totally incomprehensible games to me.

But, I won't campaign to stop them.

Only the fringe idiots call for the elimination of sports they do not agree with.

I am not one of them.

30 December 2013, 15:12

SteveGl

No worries, Saeed.

30 December 2013, 18:42

Jerry Huffaker

There is a big difference in the way the the different bulls charge. When a bullfighting bull charges the matador he puts his head down and looks at the ground, that is how the matador is able to stand in one spot as he passes through the cape. go on youtube and watch the bulls head closely. They will hook and catch them occasionally but it's usually as they pass by.
A rodeo bull looks up and forward as he charges, that's why you see the rodeo bullfighters always circling as the bull approaches. If a matador was to stand still with his cape when a rodeo bull charged he'd be 10ft in the air.
I would suspect that a cape buffalo would be the same as the rodeo bull since they hold their head up and look forward when they charge.

30 December 2013, 21:28

lorefuma

I dubt that a wild cape buffalo put in a arena will carge anything he see for 20 minuts, with the first charges at more than 50 meters, like a good fight bull. Maybe will act like a bad (manso) bull: not repetive charges and only at close distance, the most dangerous. I'm about sure anyway that the correct use of the capote ( the large piece of fabric used in the first stages of bullfighting) can protect a man from a buffalo carge.

30 December 2013, 22:57

Bill Cooley

I think the bull rider has a more dangerous position. No one has wounded or slowed the bull down. You just hop on with a rope to hold on to and say ready. Now the Spanish bulls only do this once the rodeo bulls have done it many times and know how to get you off and what to do when you hit the ground.
Bill

30 December 2013, 23:21

Jefffive

Start with an unwounded pissed-off Cape Buffalo and I predict the "fight" lasts under 20 seconds, although the stirring of the remains might go longer, and if guys on horses get involved there will be dead horses too.

They are both bovines, but the similarity stops there. Buffalo keep their head up and their eyes on the target, if you get away with one fancy pirouette you've merely educated him.

Rhino, maybe, but not Cape Buffalo. He'll have your ears and ass, and between.

30 December 2013, 23:30

7MMNut

Personally I always thought these bullfighters were impressive:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4Swn2XwmpI

31 December 2013, 01:52

leemar28

Cape Buffalo vs the Sword........Sounds like a job for Mark Sullivan !!

31 December 2013, 02:20

boarkiller

I agree with Saeed
Plain and simple

31 December 2013, 03:16

D R Hunter

SteveGI,

I don't see animals as having RIGHTS. I see the
animals as deserving of the most quick death pos-
sible at the hands of men! In the recent past there
was a thread about TV hunters chatting amongst
themselves on camera while their quarry had been
shot and downed, BUT WAS NOT YET DEAD! I, and
numerous others posted about it being wrong,
the animals deserving more respect, deserving
to be put out of their pain as quickly as possible,
and so on. What happens to bulls in the bull fights,
with the INTENTIONAL WOUNDING OF THE BULL
OVER AND OVER AGAIN, (Mark S. haters are free
to join in here!) before the matador enters the
arena, is overt cruelty from my perspective.

31 December 2013, 04:26

D R Hunter

To our host,

First thank you for this web site, the best of it's
type! Your CHAMPIONS have drawn more laugh-
ter in my home than you or they will ever know!

Sir, bull fighting is a show, not a sport, much
like "Professional Wrestling" on American T.V.
I concede that the performers in both do require
a clear measure of athleticism to participate in
the exhibition. Ballet is in the same vein.

As to traditions being carried on, we have in
some areas of the U.S. unlawful dog fights and
rooster fights. But it's the tradition in some
places to have your dog or bird engage in these
challenges. Some families have been involved for
generations. I'm surely not going to encourage
people to continue this tradition.

31 December 2013, 06:07

lavaca

Personally, I love good bull fighting. Grew up watching it on television from the Mexican channels.

Now bad bull fighting couldn't be worse. Have always wanted to watch it in Spain, but I guess I better hurry.

31 December 2013, 07:31

415sbaird

I raise some bulls on my ranch here at home. Most are nice fellows, but some can turn out a bit cranky.
When crossing their pasture, experience has taught me to keep an eye over my shoulder.

31 December 2013, 23:27

BwanaCole

quote:
Originally posted by Jefffive:
Start with an unwounded pissed-off Cape Buffalo and I predict the "fight" lasts under 20 seconds, although the stirring of the remains might go longer, and if guys on horses get involved there will be dead horses too.

They are both bovines, but the similarity stops there. Buffalo keep their head up and their eyes on the target, if you get away with one fancy pirouette you've merely educated him.

Rhino, maybe, but not Cape Buffalo. He'll have your ears and ass, and between.

It actually has nothing to do with how they hold their head. It has every ing to do with how their eyes and brain work together. They charge differently because of the shape of their horns. A Miura bull lowers it's head to spear it's target but it knows exactly where that target is. A fighting bull can pick up a leaf off the ground at full charge. They are experts at using their horns to great effect.

The torero uses the cape to distract the bulls eyes. The bull targets the last thing it sees move. If you ever get to see a good bullfight watch the torero closely. The very last thing he will do before the bull reaches him (or her, there have been a couple of very good female matadors) is a small shake of the cape. The bull then charges the cape. That is the reason a fight can only last twenty minutes. Within twenty minutes the bull figures it out!

"Death in the Afternoon" by Hemingway describes it perfectly. It is a great read even if you only have a passing interest in the ancient art.

A pissed off Cape Buff is thing to be feared but, as mentioned previously, I think it would lose interest. The Spanish fighting bull has been bred to be a killer and will keep charging until it is no longer physically able to do so.

Btw, bullfighting and US basketball have something in common. The stars of the show usually come from the poorest backgrounds. Just like inner city South Chicago kids coming up to play for the Bulls, bullfighters usually come from the poorest regions of Andalucia, etc., to make it rich in the rings of Madrid and Seville.

Ole!

01 January 2014, 03:45

SteveGl

quote:
Originally posted by BwanaCole:
... ... ... Btw, bullfighting and US basketball have something in common. The stars of the show usually come from the poorest backgrounds. Just like inner city South Chicago kids coming up to play for the Bulls, bullfighters usually come from the poorest regions of Andalucia, etc., to make it rich in the rings of Madrid and Seville.

I was with you ‘til the last paragraph comparing bullfighting, which is a refinement of something completely real and true, with basketball, which is an entirely meaningless and stupid waste of time.

A far better choice would have been boxing.

01 January 2014, 04:23

BrettAKSCI

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Of course here in the States, my favorite event in Rodeo is bull riding. I'd like to see some Cape Buffalo riding for once!

That'd be a bitch taking a boss to the face………just saying………

Brett

DRSS
Life Member SCI
Life Member NRA
Life Member WSF

Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter
May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick.
And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too.
May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep.
May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip.
-Seth Peterson

01 January 2014, 06:08

lavaca

This is in the category of "Leave it Alone". Bullfighting is a great sport in my opinion. Leave it alone. Don't try to ban it, don't denigrate it, don't try to change it. I like it.

01 January 2014, 06:19

jdollar

if matadors are so skillful and brave, why don't they skip the picadors and fight an unwounded/unweakened bull???? just saying......

01 January 2014, 06:36

jdollar

BTW, I have been to a bullfight 20 years ago in Tijuana when i lived in SD. it's a good excuse to drink beer and shout bravo and Ole' a lot- not much else. by the time the sword thrust was delivered, the bulls were so tired and weakened that they basically were exhausted and not doing much.

01 January 2014, 07:46

Jefffive

quote:
Originally posted by BwanaCole:
quote:
Originally posted by Jefffive:
Start with an unwounded pissed-off Cape Buffalo and I predict the "fight" lasts under 20 seconds, although the stirring of the remains might go longer, and if guys on horses get involved there will be dead horses too.

They are both bovines, but the similarity stops there. Buffalo keep their head up and their eyes on the target, if you get away with one fancy pirouette you've merely educated him.

Rhino, maybe, but not Cape Buffalo. He'll have your ears and ass, and between.

It actually has nothing to do with how they hold their head. It has every ing to do with how their eyes and brain work together. They charge differently because of the shape of their horns. A Miura bull lowers it's head to spear it's target but it knows exactly where that target is. A fighting bull can pick up a leaf off the ground at full charge. They are experts at using their horns to great effect.

The torero uses the cape to distract the bulls eyes. The bull targets the last thing it sees move. If you ever get to see a good bullfight watch the torero closely. The very last thing he will do before the bull reaches him (or her, there have been a couple of very good female matadors) is a small shake of the cape. The bull then charges the cape. That is the reason a fight can only last twenty minutes. Within twenty minutes the bull figures it out!

"Death in the Afternoon" by Hemingway describes it perfectly. It is a great read even if you only have a passing interest in the ancient art.

A pissed off Cape Buff is thing to be feared but, as mentioned previously, I think it would lose interest. The Spanish fighting bull has been bred to be a killer and will keep charging until it is no longer physically able to do so.

Btw, bullfighting and US basketball have something in common. The stars of the show usually come from the poorest backgrounds. Just like inner city South Chicago kids coming up to play for the Bulls, bullfighters usually come from the poorest regions of Andalucia, etc., to make it rich in the rings of Madrid and Seville.

Ole!

You're absolutely right, I don't know what I was thinking; Cape Buffalo are notorious quitters. They've only been known to keep someone who annoys them treed for a few hours. Pissed off, confined (?) in a ring amid the crowd noise and with a visible target is exactly when one would likely lay down and chew its cud.

It would really get fun if it decided to join the crowd.