As some of you know, the 450 Vincent was developed by my friend Roy Vincent. It is based on the full length 404 case necked up to 45 caliber.

Roy had a client who shot a lion too far back, hitting the lion in the middle of the stomach on a broadside shot. The lion was about 120 yards. The lion ran towards them for a few yards, turning to go away again when the client shot again. A third shot was fired by the client at the fleeing lion, but this was a clean miss.

The second shot hit the lion in the neck, exciting by his jaw, but doing relatively little damage.

The lion went into some high grass.

Roy got onto the truck, and had his wife drive into the grass. They met the lion coming at them. Roy fired a shot at the lion, hitting it between the eyes, killing it instantly.

He was using the Hornady 500 grain SP bullet, at about 2400 fps. And although the bullet broke into pieces, it still penetrated about 14 inches, which in this instance was plenty good enough.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Well, shoot, Saeed, not taking anything away from his markmanship or bravery, but he could have hit him between the eyes with a .30-30 and killed him just as quick. Of course, he might have hit him somewhere else and the .500 would have made the difference, I understand. If I were him, I would recommend a new PH for that client. LOL

Saeed,

I agree with Gatogordo, that report means very little in terms of cartrige effectivenes against DG.

I would like to hear another report in the near future, and besides that, while I really enjoy ballistics, do we need another "more of the same" ???

IMHO,

Gentlemen,

What this cartridge did is nothing more than any other cartridge would have done.

The difference is that Roy developed this cartridge himself, he built the rifle himself and he loaded the ammo himself.

Again, there is nothing special about this if you take it at face value.

But, generally speaking, someone who takes so much interest in his equipment, is more likely to know how to use it.

I am sure things might have turned differently if the client was facing that charging lion.

It's always nice to hear that someone's idea of a cartridge came to fruition. Bravo, Roy (and Saeed for helping make it so).

Now, let me get this straight: you're NOT supposed to hit a lion in the guts?

George

This round sounds alot like the 460 Guns&Ammo. Or am I all wet. Dan

George, You are only supposed to shoot a lion in the gut if you want a charge.

And as we all know, the lion must have read the script too.

Dan,

I have never seen a 460 G&A.

Roy developed two versions of this one, one slightly shorter so it will make it possible for someone who wanted more velocity to upgrade a 458 Winchester.

Have a look at our Reloading data section, you will see data for both versions.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Saeed,
The cartridge is off to a good start: One shot, one charging lion out of commision. It also speaks well of Roy's handiness with his rifle.

I particularly like this report because it affirms what I have said about the 500 grain Hornady RNSP: It is very similar to the A-Square Lion Load in its performance.

I had the same bullet at lower velocity go to pieces on a moose shoulder in 1987. It still killed the moose instantly. No doubt it is a good choice for lion, but not for cape buffalo.

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

DOC,
Know a guy who thinks it's just great on big Brownies. Seems to coincide with your thoughts ...

Nickudu,
I guess DOC means me though somebody else goes by that handle. Hint: RAB, Ron, soon to be Bwana Ron, etc.

Yes, I think your deduction is correct. It would be a great bullet for brown bear, which would seem to be a lot like lion, though larger: thin skinned dangerous game.

I also recall you like the lion load for thin skinned stuff. Makes sense to me too, as long as it is a big one like a 500 grain .458 bullet. Any smaller bore than that ought to be a tougher bullet for brownies or lion, aye?

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

Saeed please congratulate Roy for me ; It must be exciting to hunt with a round that you developed yourself, even more exciting to sort out a dangerous animal with it, first time out.

Im also glad he got to get some shooting in. Hunting with the "Sheik Daddy of the .375/404" he never gets to shoot.

Leaving a load, with your name on it, behind you, as part of your legacy, is kinda cool. Im happy for him............10

Saeed, The .460 GUNS&AMMO is a full lenght .404 case necked up to .458 and blow out to min. case taper. There is a shorter version (2 1/2") that is called (I think) .450 GUNS&AMMO. Don't remember for sure, but think Jack Lott developed them in the late 70,s for Tom Siatos then the head cheese at Petersen Publishing or was it Robert Petersen? Either way....sounds like the wheel got reinvented again. Dan

Rab,

I believe one reason why the 460 Wby had such a bad reputation for many years was the Hornady soft point. At those velocities it would frequently blow up. Fourteen inches of penetration on a lion is atrocious. Can you imagine if the same bullet hit a buffalo square on the shoulder? IMHO the 500 grain Hornady bullet is good for target practice and little else. Even at 458 velocities I'd still load a Woodleigh, Swift, or TB.

JohnDL,
My sentiments precisely. Why take a chance. Use a tougher bullet.

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

Give me a Barnes X any day! They might not be as accurate as some, but there is no question about the outcome once you place your bullet right.

I have knocked off at least 3 buffalo bulls with a frontal head shot. The bullets seem to loose some or all of their petals, but they penetrate well enough to drop them in their tracks.

I have also taken shots on buffalo where I would never do with any other bullet but a solid. Like hitting a bull facing away at the junction of the rear leg and stomach. The bullets have always gone all the way to the chest.

Some of my friends say I am becoming "boring" in my choice of rifle-cartridge-bullet combination for my hunts.

I love to tell them I just like to be "boringly consistent"!

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Saeed,

Could I talk you into running an experiment by using some of Gerard's FNs on one of your next buffalo? I think they will act like a Wide Flat Nose Keith or LBT style bullet, but I'd like to be sure.

I wouldn't ask you to shoot one to ribbons, but I'd like to get a field report on a Texas heart shot, a full frontal and a "both shoulders" (bone going in) hit on a buffalo using one of the FNs. I believe that a fresh carcase is as good as a live animal for this test, and cooperates better!

I'm interested in penetration and the size of the wound cavity.

Don

Don my friend,

It is becoming a real pain getting anything here. I ordered some bullets from Gerard, and he kindly sent them to me. You cannot imagine all the hassle I had to go through to get them cleared through customs!

I did not get any of the flat nose ones, only the HP variety. They seem to have a larger HP than the Barnes X that I have.

Also, being the well prepared sort of hunter, I have already loaded all my ammo for October..

I have some of Gerard's bullets in other calibers, and hopefully I will try them on a hunt sometimes in the future.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Saeed,

I think the HP is about like a Barnes, with all the problems of a Barnes due to the long bearing area. (Copper fouling.)

I think the new FNs (and likely the HVs) are worth the effort!

I understand about customs hassles, though. We have all sorts of rules on rifles and loaded ammo, but at least components are no problem.

Don

Saeed my friend,
I will second all the praise that Don G gives the GS Custom bullets.

Yesterday I shot the best group of my life with his FN bullet in .416 caliber. It was 0.147" for three shots at 100 yards. I was amazed by my factory Ruger rifle with Gerard's bullets.

The HV's are like X bullets with driving bands that reduce fouling and allow higher velocity and apparently better accuracy for most rifles. I have always had good luck with the X-Bullets but the GSC's might be better. Barnes ought to put the HV technology on their bullets via an arrangement with Gerard Schultz.

The best combo that Gerard has in .375 caliber now is a 265 grain HV and a 270 grain FN.

If he would come out with a 300 grain HV and FN in .375 caliber, I would forsake all other bullets and build two rifles in 375 Saeed and hunt with nothing else. Well, since the dies and brass are so cheap for the 375 RUM, maybe I would just go the "Ugly American" route.

I'll bet if Gerard would get the 300 grain .375 caliber HV and FN in production, he would get your interest, and a lot of other folks' interest too.

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

[This message has been edited by R. A. Berry (edited 07-15-2001).]

Daktari,

I'd bet that the GS Custom bullets in .375 are pretty close to optimal for the H&H. If ever there were two calibers that would make a reputation in RSA, it would be the .30 and the .375H&H, and Gerard knows this.

Perhaps for the 375/404, 375 RUM the 300 grain FN/HV would be just about perfect, but that's a pretty small market compared to the H&H. Maybe if you ask him nicely?

Don

Don,
I shall give it a try.

Well, this thread went sideways!

Back to the 450 Vincent Long: Can you imagine that cartridge with the HV/FN combo? A 450 grainer for the 450? Or the 400 to 500 grain X-Bullets? For those who could handle it, unbeatable.

Congratulations again to Roy and Saeed on the auspicious beginnings of this cartridge's field use.

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

I only know Roy Vincent thru video's and thru E-mails but I can already tell he's a guy I'd love to spend 21 day's hunting with. I can tell that I'd spend about half the time laughing, that means a lot to me.

Here's a guy that is standing on the edge of loseing much on the situation and Zim , and , somehow he finds the courage, and optimisim in the future, to develope his own proprietary cartridge.

Thats kinda what I felt when I heard about him and his new cartridge ; I think the guy has courage and character. I think there is a lot of that in that part of the world. Frankly it makes me feel positive about the future of the safari industry.

Anyway, sorry to dribble about non-hunting stuff, but thats what it made me feel when I first read about the Lion.

Please dont forget to tell Roy I said "Hi" and "congratulation's" Saeed.......Rick

Saeed,

Can you tell me what the width of the shoulder is on the 450 Vincent?

My 458 x 404 improved measures about 0.522 inches on a fired case.

The base using HDS brass is 0.542 - 0.543. Norma and RWS brass is 0.5405.

My chamber will tolerate up to 0.542 once it was polished.

I think the 460 GA was 0.550 which made a fired case look a little bit egg shaped!

My shoulder is 25 degrees which gives you better head space than a 15 degree 460 GA using cylindircal (unfired) brass.

My case is 2.85 long.

Your reloading data was useful. Many thanks.

Andy

Andy,

The diameter at the shoulder of the one we have is 0.533 and just ahead of the extractor groove it is 0.543.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com