Anyone hear this story or see the vid -- new lion charge ??

16 February 2006, 21:48

A buddy of mine was at the FNAWS convention in Reno and related the following story to me...

quote:
But here is one quick story........I met a fellow who just got back from Botswana with his wife. They were hunting buff, elephant and lion. He booted up his laptop and showed us the most incredible lion charge footage ever caught on film. The wife had shot the lion in the leg and it holed up in some thick brush. The PH, husband, another hunter and another PH all lined out while the trackers threw sticks into the bush. You could hear the lion growling. The assortment of big bores, including doubles, looked impressive. The cameraman was in the best position possible when the charge came. You could see the lion from about 40 yards away coming fast. The rifles were banging but it looked like only one hit in the foot. The PH closest to the lion was the focus of the lion's charge. His first shot missed and he couldn't bring his rifle up fast enough after working the bolt for a follow up shot so he shot from the hip. The lion is about 2 feet away by this time and the bullet from his 450 wildcat (that is all the guy new about the caliber) hits the lion right between the eyes. You can see the bullet energy literally push the lion back as the bullet hole appears between the eyes. The lion dies in mid-air and the momentum of the lion bowls the PH over. It show the charge first in real time then in slow motion. I'm sure it will surface somewhere but not until the guy sells it for a lot of money. It's #%*&# incredible.

Anyone know anything about this?

Cheers,
Canuck

16 February 2006, 22:02

Gerhard.Delport

The article appeared in the 2006 January edition of Man/Magnum.

The PH as I understand it is Ron Crous. He was with Johan Calitz when the lion charged.

He used a 450 Watts.

Great reading.

Would love to see the footage.

Gerhard

16 February 2006, 22:19

Canuck

quote:
Would love to see the footage.

Me too! Sounds like something to behold.

Thanks for the info!

Cheers,
Canuck

16 February 2006, 22:36

577NitroExpress

Guys, it sounds like we all have some homework: try to find that video for all of AR to enjoy!

17 February 2006, 05:14

Eland Slayer

I agree!

17 February 2006, 12:55

Bwanamich

Saw the video and the footage is absolutely breathtaking. If that 2nd shot from the ph had hit anywhere else but between the eyes, the guy would have been history, or close to it!

The scary thing about the whole episode to me is that you have 5-6 guys firing at a rather large target from between 30 to 5 yards and ......missing completely! It goes to prove that one can never practice their shooting enough. i know I will and especially on moving targets and snap shots

17 February 2006, 14:13

SwiftShot

They need to go to the skeet range. That tends to put you on target for high speed shooting.

17 February 2006, 14:26

Will

I used to go to the skeet range and stand as close to the low house on the #8 position sidewalk as I could get and still hit most of them. But when the shit hits the fan, it is mostly instinct and no practice will make the real difference!

But practice can't hurt.

-------------------------------
Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.
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_________________________

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If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go.

17 February 2006, 14:36

mouse93

probably some of you allready seen this - not directly related but just to keep things warm - from - http://www.african-hunter.com/videos.htm :

17 February 2006, 15:12

buffalo

quote:
The PH closest to the lion was the focus of the lion's charge. His first shot missed and he couldn't bring his rifle up fast enough after working the bolt for a follow up shot so he shot from the hip.

That is why it is so extremely important to practice cycling the bolt with the rifle at the shoulder - NOT lowering the rifle to work the bolt...

17 February 2006, 16:43

Vaughan Fulton

us
Posted 17 February 2006 15:12
quote:
The PH closest to the lion was the focus of the lion's charge. His first shot missed and he couldn't bring his rifle up fast enough after working the bolt for a follow up shot so he shot from the hip.

That is why it is so extremely important to practice cycling the bolt with the rifle at the shoulder - NOT lowering the rifle to work the bolt...

Double

17 February 2006, 18:40

CLIFT

I saw this footage at the Johan Calitz booth in Houston. I visited with Johan Calitz at the Houston show.
I believe he told me he was summoned to the site for the follow-up. He was heilcopted in. He is the PH on the left that fires first with a double. He indicated that he saved his second shot for "if it got nasty", since ther were other guns in the hunting party.

17 February 2006, 19:14

JPK

Yes, the reason the DR is ideal for this.

JPK

17 February 2006, 19:15

retreever

Wanted to post this yesterday...Why did the PH take the rifle away from his shoulder.. That is exactly how Chipman got hit by the lion... Shot, rifle down , and not enough time to get it back up...

All my bolt work is with the rifle still up...

Mike

17 February 2006, 19:18

surestrike

quote:
Originally posted by Will:
But when the shit hits the fan, it is mostly instinct and no practice will make the real difference!

But practice can't hurt.

When the shit hits the fan PRACTICE and TRAINING are the only things that matter! How do you think we develop "insticnt" with a rifle?

In an emergency situation we never rise to the occasion rather we fall to our level of training. It's been proven time and again in airplane emergencies, shootouts, animal charges, combat and every other type of emergency life or death situation.

17 February 2006, 19:40

Charles_Helm

quote:
Originally posted by retreever:
Wanted to post this yesterday...Why did the PH take the rifle away from his shoulder.. That is exactly how Chipman got hit by the lion... Shot, rifle down , and not enough time to get it back up...

All my bolt work is with the rifle still up...

Mike

I did not say anyting when this was originally posted but I was thinking the same thing. But watch the hunting shows on television and you see the rifle come off the shoulder all the time. What the heck is going on there?

17 February 2006, 19:53

prof242

Have to agree with Surestrike. Many dead police carrying revolvers were found with cartridge brass in their hands...as they were taught when qualifying.
(And no, I'm not agreeing with him just because he lives 50 miles north of me.)

17 February 2006, 20:05

Ivan

Was the hunter from Montana? I think I know who he might be. I haven't seen the video, but a good friend of mine has seen it at the hunters house a couple weeks ago.

My buddy said the hunter wasn't going to sell it or give it away... I'd really like to see it, but my buddy said that the hunter won't email it or anything... I guess I might have to make a trip up to his house and see for myself...

17 February 2006, 20:18

jangili

quote:
Originally posted by buffalo:
quote:
The PH closest to the lion was the focus of the lion's charge. His first shot missed and he couldn't bring his rifle up fast enough after working the bolt for a follow up shot so he shot from the hip.

My 2cents. My own experience with rifles of considerable recoild is the working the bolt off the shoulder is by far the quickest. In the case of a RH shooter the left arm pushes the rifle away from the body whilst the right arm cycles the bolt against the tension from the left arm. The right arm also is pulling the rifle towards the body against the left. Try it. I could cycle off four or three shots, dependant on the rifle type in a very short time. Best effort 4 shots from a 458WM on a challenging (PC) buff between 12 and 6 paces at full gallop. All shots in a 10inch circle. Quartering shot as he was after a friend behind me.

That is why it is so extremely important to practice cycling the bolt with the rifle at the shoulder - NOT lowering the rifle to work the bolt...

17 February 2006, 20:33

surestrike

quote:
Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
quote:
Originally posted by retreever:
Wanted to post this yesterday...Why did the PH take the rifle away from his shoulder.. That is exactly how Chipman got hit by the lion... Shot, rifle down , and not enough time to get it back up...

All my bolt work is with the rifle still up...

Mike

I did not say anyting when this was originally posted but I was thinking the same thing. But watch the hunting shows on television and you see the rifle come off the shoulder all the time. What the heck is going on there?

Yes the proper way to work the bolt is on the shoulder without moving your head from the stock.

Once a man gets good at it he can work a bolt rifle so fast and accuratly it is shocking to watch.

Of course the only way to acheive this level of profeiceny is through TRAINING!

I see guys taking the rifle off the shoulder to work the bolt all the time. This is nothing more than slopy shooting technique pure and simple.

17 February 2006, 20:56

formerflyer

Jangili:

Thereâ€™s no way that you can cycle the bolt faster by moving the rifle away from the bolt, or moving them both together, than you can by moving the bolt away from the rifle. The bolt weighs a few ounces, the rifle weighs in the neighborhood of ten pounds.

I was fortunate to learn rapid bolt manipulation from a couple of old High Power shooters, who shot for their entire lives with 03â€™s. When done properly, the right hand pivots at the wrist, the upper arm and elbow move not at all, and the forearm simply rotates. The hand flicks up and back, taking the bolt with it, and then returns flicking forward and down. Each half of the bolt throw is done in one movement, with the top of the hand and the index finger carrying the bolt knob on the opening stroke and the thumb taking the bolt on the forward stroke. The rifle never moves from the recoil pocket of the shoulder.

When done properly, this is a blindingly fast maneuver. The right hand flicks up and down, the brass sails off about 25 feet away from the shooter, and your rifle is reloaded and back in battery usually before youâ€™ve recovered from recoil. If youâ€™ve ever been privileged enough to watch a bunch of competent bolt-rifle shooters at a high power match, youâ€™ll be amazed. Those old farts are virtually as fast as their semi-auto shooting counterparts. Both rifles (semi and bolt) are reloaded and back on target before they come back into position for the next shot.

By the way, most scopes will interfere somewhat with the free movement of the hand in this exercise, hindering the reloading stroke very slightly and requiring more practice on the part of the shooter to maintain proficiency. Just another reason not to scope your DG rifle, I guess.

17 February 2006, 21:09

MARK H. YOUNG

Guys,

I hunted with Ronny Crous last year and if I remember right he is left handed and his 450 Watts is a right hand action. I wonder if that factored into his taking the rifle from his shoulder to cycle the bolt.

I also wonder how much real practice the average PH can get when owning 2 full boxes of ammo at any one time is a big deal.

Mark

17 February 2006, 21:38

formerflyer

Mark:

You don't need ammo to practice bolt manipulation. In fact, when I was learning, I didn't practice with ammo until I could do the reloading stroke perfectly and quickly. Most gun-handling training is done with unloaded rifles, or sometimes with dummy ammo (which almost anybody can make up).

As far as shooting a right-handed bolt from the left, there's two different ways I know of to manipulate the bolt without taking the rifle from the shoulder, either of which is faster than any variation that involves pulling the rifle down between shots.

I suspect the "average PH" can get as much practice as he wants. Firearm proficiency in emergency situations breaks down into three distinct components: Marksmanship, Gun-handling, and Mindset. Marksmanship is placing the bullet where it needs to go, Gun-handling is making sure that when you need it to fire, itâ€™s ready no matter what the circumstances, and Mindset is mostly about discipline and confidence, meaning the ability to beâ€œcool under pressureâ€. Marksmanship can be improved dramatically with dry-firing practice, Gun-handling takes no firing at all to train, and Mindset comes mostly with experience in stressful situations (which PHâ€™s get in great quantity) and confidence in your shooting ability. We train for Mindset outside of actual danger by stressing the shooter with different exercises against time, but I think any PH, certainly every one Iâ€™ve met, already has that covered.

18 February 2006, 20:44

T_Russell

We don't know all the facts concerning the incident but a few have been made clear and touched on here. Some atrocious missing was taking place.

Center the chest and focus on the front sight then PRESS THE TRIGGER. They didn't do this because they either had not been trained to do it or had not practiced what they had been taught. Surestrike nails the various problems when quotes Barrett Tillman's line "You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your training."

Focus on the front sight (Or reticle), PRESS THE TRIGGER, and run the bolt with the rifle in the shoulder. There is no good reason to lower the rifle from the shoulder when running the bolt. Do this and the fight will be over before your target realizes he was in one, whether he has two legs or four legs.

It would appear that this fight was won through blind luck. If he didn't have the skill to win the fight with the sights then it is very unlikely that he had the skill to win it with a shot from the hip. "Its better to be lucky than good." is a great movie line but that's all it's good for.

However, if everyone focused on the sight, pressed the trigger (as opposed to jerking), and reflexively ran the bolt with the rifle in the shoulder we wouldn't have all these entertaining videos.

Tom

18 February 2006, 22:50

Don_G

T-Russell,

Yep, if ol' Saeed would just start missing more often, I bet he'd have had a charge or two out his 100 buff or so - and we'd have some great video. As it is, they just keep dying...

18 February 2006, 23:13

T_Russell

"As it is, they just keep dying..."

That's the way it's supposed to happen. He does drop the rifle to run the bolt though.

Tom

18 February 2006, 23:41

MARK H. YOUNG

Folks

I don't disagree with any of the proper rifle handling and shooting techniques shared here and I try to adhere to most of what has been said in my own shooting. On the other hand none of us was there and most of us will never be in Ronny's situation. I for one do not know with absolute certainty what I would have done if a big male lion was bearing down on me at full speed. It is nice to theorize about moving our wrists properly and pressing the trigger rather than jerking it but when the hot liquid is about to run down the back of your leg would we really be able to "instintively" apply all the proper moves? I can't answer that.

Mark

18 February 2006, 23:45

Charles_Helm

quote:
Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Folks

I don't disagree with any of the proper rifle handling and shooting techniques shared here and I try to adhere to most of what has been said in my own shooting. On the other hand none of us was there and most of us will never be in Ronny's situation. I for one do not know with absolute certainty what I would have done if a big male lion was bearing down on me at full speed. It is nice to theorize about moving our wrists properly and pressing the trigger rather than jerking it but when the hot liquid is about to run down the back of your leg would we really be able to "instintively" apply all the proper moves? I can't answer that.

Mark

I don't disagree with you. I was not there and did not intend to be critical, but I just wanted to note that I see more of this type of reload, even in non-dangerous situations, on televsion. It seems that working the bolt from the shoulder where you can better keep your sight picture is not emphasized as much as I would have thought. That was my only point.

19 February 2006, 00:31

JPK

Two things:

Training is what you fall beck to, as several have mentioned. If you operate your bolt one way all the time it will be operated the same way when you are focused on other things, like a lion coming at you.

Second, if the target is moving fast you must focus on the target, not the sight. If you focus on the sight you will shoot behind, just as with a shotgun. This is why money spent making your rifles fit is money very well spent.

JPK

19 February 2006, 01:43

shootaway

You know,if I was there I'd have no problem with a charging lion,being a shooting ballerina.

19 February 2006, 02:03

Jaco Human

JPK, a lot of truths you mentioned.

A question, I have never been in a situtuation like this that is why I am asking. If you are standing up and shoot at something like a Lion charging you will tend to shoot over it, if you go down on your knees you should have a better chance of hitting with your first shot.

I know when a charge happens everything happens very quickly. Is that not the rteason to train for situations like that and hope it never hapens. I want to copare this with my military training, I could wake up in the middle of the night and do thing instictively, because I was well trained. Maybe we should do more on the training side and then keep on practising what we learned.

19 February 2006, 02:34

T_Russell

If you are focused on the target and not your sight you do not know where your rifle is indexed. You can keep the target centered with with your eye on the sight, people do it in gunfights, dogfights, and charges all the time. If you want to win/survive keep your eye on the reticle/sight and follow through while pressing the trigger.

Focus on the animal and jerk the trigger or focus on the sight and press the trigger. Hmm, I think I will go with the later, it has always worked for me.

Kneeling is an excellent way to remove decreased elevation from the picture as the animal comes in. By the way this only matters if the animal is on a lower plane than you ie pitbulls, leopards and lions etc.

There is no such thing as "instictive" accurate shooting as the ability to accurately place your shots is a learned process. Proper training leads to programed reflex which is what you see when an expert shot performs. Some have better coordination and reflexes but they still have to learn workable technique.

Tom

19 February 2006, 02:36

Michael Robinson

A mistake we all make, myself included, is that we "expect" our first bullet to be all that will be needed.

We pause after firing the first round, and wait to see what we "expected" to happen actually happen.

Trouble is, sometimes it doesn't happen.

Getting out of the "shoot one bullet and watch" mindset is very, very difficult, but it is essential.

19 February 2006, 02:53

JPK

TRussell,

If your rifle fits properly and you have practiced with it, especially mounting it, it is pointing where your brain knows it is pointing, and your shot will be where your eyes are focused. If you focus on the front sight you will not know where you are shooting, relative to the target. If you switch from target to sight you will stop your swing.

This applies to fast moving targets, fast in the sense of relative motion.

To stop this charge, you will need to hit the CNS or brain, not the yellow blur behind the front sight.

JPK

19 February 2006, 03:14

T_Russell

Respectfully, I disagree.

I have been teaching people to hit for almost ten years now. Received my Master Instructor certification under Colonel Jeff Cooper in 2000. I teach focus on the sight, press the trigger, follow through.

The Colonel has been teaching people to hit for about five decades. He teaches focus on the sight, press the trigger, follow through.

Clint Smith did two tours in Vietnam as a combat Marine followed by SWAT and has now been instructing about 25 years. He's rated as a Master Instructor. He teaches focus on the sight, press the trigger, follow through.

MSGT Paul Howe US Army Retired was the lead Delta Force Operator in Mogadishu in 93 and served as the Army's senior special operations firearms instructor. He teaches focus on the sight, press the trigger, follow through.

Think what you will of Mark Sullivan but no one can argue with his experience. I asked him three weeks ago what he sees when the animal is coming in. Without any prompting (He doesn't need to impress me anyway.) His exact words were "The front sight."

I could name others but I believe the list is sufficient. Maybe none of us know what we are talking about, but I think we do.

I am only going to the degree of argument because there may be those reading this thread who might find themselves facing the beast one day in a parking lot, Africa, or Alaska and when they do if they will focus on the sight, press the trigger and follow through they will get the good hits and that is very important thing.

Tom

19 February 2006, 03:17

shootaway

Anyone who thinks they can teach someone to shoot,needs some teaching.

19 February 2006, 03:58

Jaco Human

T Russel,
My metioning of instictively was not only aimed at the shooting , but also to your ones reactions in certain situations. I agree kneeling will only work when the animal size makes it more or less level with your eyes. If you can have your target at eye level or above it makes the chances of missing a lot smaller.

When you are a well trained marksman shooting becomes 90% a brain function. I think you will agree that your rifle will be shoulderered correctly, your cheek will autimatically find its spot, your eye will everytime be almost in the correct place on the reticle, this all happens in sequence because you are well trained. Your sight picture forms almost immidiately. If you were not focusing on the charge you might get a totally wrong picture. It also helps to shoot with both eyes open, though this takes a lot of practice. You dont have to think about it, it just happens. Its is like dring a car, things happens instictively. After a couple of years , you do not think about changing gears or applying your brakes, it is instictively.

If it was a person that is not well trained, I agree he must first go through all the steps, get the reticle aligned and then move to the target. This will waste a lot of time. With traing things will start happening instictively, because of tall the repitition.

Just my opinion

19 February 2006, 04:56

Don_G

Anybody can be taught to shoot.

I've seen it many times. The easiest people to teach to shoot are the ones who've never shot at all before. They don't have the bad habits that we all have developed over the years.

What can't be taught is the reaction under stress. Many of the best marksmen at the rifle range will freeze or react poorly in a dire situation. You never know who will be that way in spite of all the training in the world. But stress training helps the tendency towards proper reaction a lot.

You can also never know for sure that you won't bag it some day in a tight spot, even if you've reacted well many times in the past.

19 February 2006, 08:16

JPK

TRussell,

Your talking about shooting people. They can't move fast and are soft targets. A slow lion moves about two and a half times as fast as a world class sprinter. A torso hit on a human is disableing, it won't even slow a charging lion down.

Move on to fast moving - relative movement - targets and add the need for CNS or brain shots and your program fails.

Mark Sullivan is shooting animals coming to him, low relative motion, and then might I agree more with him and you. But watch his videos, he is focused on the animal not his sights, his rifle fits. I have all of his videos and the better he gets the less he is relying on his sights.

The fellows in the situation here, but maybe not the fellow being charged, have high relative motion. Focus on the sights and miss the CNS or brain - or it seems the whole friggin' lion . Focus on the target and you will kill it.

I will loan you Mark Sullivan's videos if you like. I think you will learn alot about shooting DG.

JPK

19 February 2006, 10:12

KINO

quote:
Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Guys,

I hunted with Ronny Crous last year and if I remember right he is left handed and his 450 Watts is a right hand action. I wonder if that factored into his taking the rifle from his shoulder to cycle the bolt.

Mark

Why Is this Ph hunting DG with and odd ball wildcat in a rifle that won't fit him.
Maybe he will make some royaltys off the video and be able to get a gun to fit him properly