I did go to church, though. Sermon on Job. Necessary, but not much fun. I could feel sores popping up on my legs the whole time.

quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:
Personally I dont like shooting any animal out of a tree when it's been chased up the tree and surrounded by dogs. I don't care how tough it is to run 10,000 miles after it. If thats your claim to fame then take up cross country running and more power to you.

I will probably never shoot a mtn. lion for this very reason, but thats ok.

How do you feel about chasing bunnies with a beagle or quail "pinned" by a pointer or maybe ole southern style 'coon hunts behind a pack of redbones curls your lip an let me not forget to mention pheasant hunting in South Dakota ...all favorite pastimes of thousands whom call themselves sportsmen/women.
When sportsmen start passing judgement on sportsmen the antis smile!!!!!

2th Doc,
Yes, it is most appropriate for sportsmen to pass judgement on other sportsmen when the rules of fair chase and ethics are so blatantly violated in the name of selling crossbows or equipment.

True sportsmen will call BS on people that are not abiding by the ethics of our pasttime.

This shoot was obviously staged and was for a domestic raised lion. It is absurd to suggest otherwise. It is wrong and should be roundly condemned as cowardice and egotism.

If sportsmen do not set limits and boundaries on themselves, who will?

I saw the show and it was clear that that particular cat got tired of being "stalked" and climbed the tree. I don't think a wild lion would do that simply from being stalked.

Tooth Doc, clearly you've never hunted wild quail or pheasant or you wouldn't have used those examples.

Unethical is unethical and should be condemned by all. It's the behaviour that is wrong, not passing judgement on it. If you as an ethical sportsman do not condemn it you are condoning it.

dogcat please take the time to read the posts on this thread, namely mine and you'll see in my very first post I call it for what it was..poor taste but legal.
An just whom's set of ethics are you calling BS on yours or someone else's? Cause I saw nowhere in that show where the hunter asked you or anyone else to agree or condone her choice in ethics while she was in legal pursuit of hers.
I refuse to hunt over bait for anything but in some areas of the States it is a time honored tradition to kill a deer while he munches away on protein pellets mixed with corn an sugar beets.
Will I do it myself (kill a lion behind fence)...time will tell. I surely won't do anything that I'm not comfortable with just to collect another of the big five or to fill another corner of my home with a trophy. But under the correct conditions an keeping within my ethics, not those of others,yes I may well.The difference in me is that I'll say it straight out unlike so many others that excuse themselves from such a conversation.Doc

450/400 oh but how wrong you are in regard to quail and pheasants. I've filled many a pants cuff with seeds following my pairS of gordons thruout the years. BTW if i had to pick just one shooting sport it would be upland birds.

I just figured somebody that had hunted wild birds behind dogs couldn't possibly compare that to "stalking" a lion in an enclosure small enough to make it want to climb a tree to get away...

That woman is really hard on the eyes. I could forgive a good looking woman doing that.

Just an out and out disgrace.

Truly awful.

I have no patience for this kind of thing.

Why not call the local fire department?

I'm sure they have lots of experience getting house cats down from trees.

2th Doc,

As for the lion don't do it. It's fraud, just like billing for an unnessary core build up and and "esthetic upgrade". You will not feel good about yourself. Do it right, or don't do it at all.

Jeff

I had the program on my DVR and finally watched it last night. I wish I hadn't deleted it but I think I remember reading the show was first run in 2002, meaning the hunt would have taken place during the heart of the 'caged lion' hunting safaris coming out of RSA.

I'm not condoning the act, just stating I think the video is older than perceived.

Sent an email of protest and general scolding.

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:
dogcat please take the time to read the posts on this thread, namely mine and you'll see in my very first post I call it for what it was..poor taste but legal.
An just whom's set of ethics are you calling BS on yours or someone else's? Cause I saw nowhere in that show where the hunter asked you or anyone else to agree or condone her choice in ethics while she was in legal pursuit of hers.
I refuse to hunt over bait for anything but in some areas of the States it is a time honored tradition to kill a deer while he munches away on protein pellets mixed with corn an sugar beets.
Will I do it myself (kill a lion behind fence)...time will tell. I surely won't do anything that I'm not comfortable with just to collect another of the big five or to fill another corner of my home with a trophy. But under the correct conditions an keeping within my ethics, not those of others,yes I may well.The difference in me is that I'll say it straight out unlike so many others that excuse themselves from such a conversation.Doc

I have read the posts. My point is not your ethics but that we, as sportsmen, must set a higher standard. That standard is very clear and well known by anyone who calls himself an ethical hunter.

What I saw was legal but not ethical. There are many things that are legal but entirely unethical and not right. Being legal does not mean ethical.

Shooting a lion, that was raised/bred in captivity is legal in RSA, but it is no ethical. I call BS on that and will do so everytime I see it.

Check out the posts in the Discounted Hunts forum by a guy named Arnold Payne. He is advertising a "hunt" for a 50" cape buffalo in Zim as well as a "great lion hunt". From the description, these shoots are legal, but they are far from ethical.

That is my point. I think you and I are in agreement on this.

Where we may disagree on who gets to set the "ethical" standard. I set my own based on experience gained from reading about others on subject, being intimately involved as a hunter and by a hunting societal norm. You set yours where you wish. If I disagree, I will voice the concern. I you disagree, do the same.

quote:

Will I do it myself (kill a lion behind fence)...time will tell.

well, i guess that pretty says it all.legal and ethical are on 2 different pages in my dictionary and have 2 different definitions

I just watched it again, they spent the better part of the morning tracking the lioness and the hunt culminated in the afternoon.

Straight from the safari operators website...
Lioness (Captive Bred and released)
Min of 4 Days @ $740-00 per day.
Trophy Fee $6 840-00

In fairness they do offer this additional male lion safari:
Lion (Captive Bred and released)
Min of 4 days $740-00 per day.
Trophy Fee from $17 290-00 to
$39 400-00 depending on main and size required by hunter.

So, depending on the mane size you require, you could pay $39,400 for your trophy fee.

Don't believe me...
http://www.scssafaris.com/packages.htm

damn, now that's real hunting- 1 day and done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am glad to see that most people are calling this what it is and taking an ethical stand. Only when us hunters start to stand up and condem these unethical practices and make it uncomfortable for those that support them, only then will they begin to decrease.Unfortunately they will never stop but hopefully less people will support them

quote:

Originally posted by Scott450:
I am glad to see that most people are calling this what it is and taking an ethical stand. Only when us hunters start to stand up and condem these unethical practices and make it uncomfortable for those that support them, only then will they begin to decrease.Unfortunately they will never stop but hopefully less people will support them

+1

I agree, this was pathetic.

Has anyone received any response from Excalibur?

I talked to a fellow who knows the family who owns the company. He says that they are really nice folks and wouldn't intentionally create an "ego stroking" video. He thinks that they just don't know any better and were under the impression that they were "really hunting" in Africa.

I hope that the above is the case and they will not finance any more of such.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
Has anyone received any response from Excalibur?

I talked to a fellow who knows the family who owns the company. He says that they are really nice folks and wouldn't intentionally create an "ego stroking" video. He thinks that they just don't know any better and were under the impression that they were "really hunting" in Africa.

I hope that the above is the case and they will not finance any more of such.

I'd like to think that "2th doc" is in that same category but I'm afraid he's not. Maybe he'll grow out of it.

What a sad example of trading ethics for video. If you portray it as a captive bred lion shoot, and state it up front , then that is one thing. But to NOT be upfront is just the same as trying to pass it off as a real lion hunt! End of story. Scotts show has not been the only one to do this . I have seen several shows filmed with South Africas TAM SAFARIS that never mentioned that they were shooting captive , farm raised lions. From a filming point of view , you can't even believe the money we could save from cutting the average 21 day lion safari ( with no guarentee of a lion no less ) to a one day fish in a bucket affair that resulted in a huge ,dead,tame lion. It rubs me pretty raw that some people that view outdoor programming can't see the difference. It's good to see the AR guys get it !! I can promise you this, you won't see it on any upcoming episodes of TRACKS ACROSS AFRICA, or HORNADYS AFRICA..we'll take the physical and financial risks of hunting real lions.

Dave- Many thanks to you, your crew and sponsors for putting the "Real Deal" out there. I'd rather not have hunted lion than to have shot a fish in a barrel. For me personally, the experience of being in the last wild places is equal to the pulling of the trigger. The stories you tell your grandkids are far more fascinating than the mounted heads. I would rather 'earn' a maneless lion than 'buy' an MGM.

+1

quote:

I'd like to think that "2th doc" is in that same category but I'm afraid he's not. Maybe he'll grow out of it.

Spring you don't know anymore about me than I
do of you, other than what we both post. As for growing out of it I'd parry with it took me 40 years of living to come to terms with the man in the mirror. That's been over 22 years ago now so I doubt "I'll grow out of it".

I see the CATS in trees issue is still going. Glad to see most here agree it's a despicable act. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:

quote:

I'd like to think that "2th doc" is in that same category but I'm afraid he's not. Maybe he'll grow out of it.

Spring you don't know anymore about me than I
do of you, other than what we both post. As for growing out of it I'd parry with it took me 40 years of living to come to terms with the man in the mirror. That's been over 22 years ago now so I doubt "I'll grow out of it".

Considering shooting a pen raised lion or one behind a fence and claiming it as anything other than wanton killing for the sake of ego? I would hope not and that a persons ethics are at least above this level. A person would hopefully grow out of that.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
damn, now that's real hunting- 1 day and done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Remember the fellow who, along with his two buddies, all shot their MGM lions the very first morning, then came here to brag of their accomplishments.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
[Remember the fellow who, along with his two buddies, all shot their MGM lions the very first morning, then came here to brag of their accomplishments.

And he thought he'd had a fair chase hunt. It didn't even occur to him that he'd been stitched up......... the question is, how many other hunters get stitched up in a similar manner without knowing it.

dogcat Just what type of trophy hunting is anything but wanton killing other than cull hunts? Also why is it you didn't absorb any of what I wrote but what you wanted to?
Whether or not I feel the arrangement is up to your idea of ethics surely won't be the determing factor for me.

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:
dogcat Just what type of trophy hunting is anything but wanton killing other than cull hunts? Also why is it you didn't absorb any of what I wrote but what you wanted to?
Whether or not I feel the arrangement is up to your idea of ethics surely won't be the determing factor for me.

2th Doc:
If I were you, I'd stick to fixing other folks' mouths instead of putting your foot in your own.

I can think of a whole lots of reasons why trophy hunting is not "wanton" killing, particularly since most states require you to recover the meat and most African PH's use the meat for sale or for employees. I, wantonly, eat what I shoot. JMHO.

Dogcat is right on the money.

I guess it's what you can live with and how you value your accomplishment.

Pen raised lion shooting is the pinnacle of unethical hunting.

Tooth,
I have read your posts, all 6 of them on this thread. The issue is that you appear to condone shooting pen raised animals and call it "acceptable". Fine. Your opinion is welcome here.

I think you will find yourself in a serious minority if you believe that your ethics on this issue are "fine" with others. I find it repugnant that any hunter would consider shooting a lion or whatever under the condition shown in that TV show, legal or not. You stated you had no issue with shooting a buffalo "behind the fence". Fine. I have an issue with it and find it ethically immoral.

You get no free pass just because it is "your opinion". If you want to advocate and claim the benefits of shooting pen raised big game, go right ahead but expect a rebuttal.

As to this cross bow outfit. Shame on them if they did not know what was happening. As per a previous post, the "safari" outfit stated this was a penned lion shoot. This was not a hunt by any definition. It was a staged execution for the pure purpose of greed.

Ernest et, al, I wouldn't get into more discussions regarding CATS. We've seen this issue before. jorge

JOrge,
I agree with you. We beat this topic regularly. I liken it to dog fighting or other blood sport entertainment where blood lust is the only "trophy" or accomplishment.

At root of the issue - how on earth could any sportsman remotely consider shooting a pen raised lion out of a tree and call it hunting or entertainment or fun or whatever? When I see acceptance or support for something like this, I speak out against it.

Of course I haven't seen every penned lion operation in RSA, but I have been to more than I have fingers and toes. I've also been to a "walk with the lions" operation in Zimbabwe.

Having seen both types of operations, I can not believe that it would be economically feasible to support a lion's transition from "caged" to "free". Others have talked about the expense of a lion killing other animals for a period of time long enough to lose association with humans, not to mention that lions are pride animals and don't function naturally alone.

So, that said, I can't imagine going to RSA and and believing any story that the lion was anything but just released.

BTW, I reviewed Excalibur's elephant hunt referenced on its website. It looks real, except for one funny quote by the shooter. After shooting the elephant they run away (which makes you wonder?), but that's not it. The crossbow guy says something to the effect, "Well, it must be over because I've been called up"... I don't think I want to shoot an animal with anything (gun, bow, zuni rocket) and have to let somebody else go see if the thing is dead. What's with that?

Jorge: Where's your buddy now?

From an ex-Zim parks oke, I cannot think of anything more abhorrant than those "so called lion hunts."

New to this forum but I am hooked! Thanks all.

Please though, could someone insist that a lion's wonderful rug be called a mane and NOT main?

Sale gahle.

dogcat I respect your opinion an we are both welcome to ours.
FTR Tam was one of the companies mentioned here an it is also the company I am doing some PG hunting with as well as the lion option I have spoken about latter this spring. I truthfully don't know if I'll opt to go thru with with the hunt (lion) or not at this point, once there I shall decide.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
[Remember the fellow who, along with his two buddies, all shot their MGM lions the very first morning, then came here to brag of their accomplishments.

And he thought he'd had a fair chase hunt. It didn't even occur to him that he'd been stitched up......... the question is, how many other hunters get stitched up in a similar manner without knowing it.

Most newbs wouldn't have a clue. How do you educate them before they head off and book something? It is almost wrong to do it afterwards.

Remember the screwy guy who owns/runs the Bowsite? The one that shot the MGM and made such a big deal of it on "his" site as to how great a hunt it was. Still don't know if he was clueless to the "canned" thing or just didn't want to admit to it. Having met that guy once, I would have to say it's his ego that has him hooked on canned hunting.


Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member