The 375 is usually the cussed and discussed caliber when the talk turns to rifles and such for use on safari.
Is this oldster all it's cracked up to be? Wouldn't adding some velocity help it along when used for longer range work, and give it a bit more "thump" for up close shooting at big animals?
Is it truly a compromise caliber that is useful for most things but really great at nothing? Other than being able to fill in for anything!
Passions run deep regarding this old hag of a caliber, what are yours?

John; You are indeed correct in that passions run deep on this venerable old round. One way to look at this issue is from strictly a "marketplace" issue. Virtually all 375 clone calibers have either failed or are so far down the ladder in sales that their numbers are statistically insignificant. You do have a valid point in that there are certainly better calibers suited to perform "specific" tasks in the hunting arena. For example, A sound argument could be made that the 338 Win Mg is a better "plains game" caliber. It shoot flatter and with today's bullets it is more than up to the task. But, ( and know this is an old example but I can't think of a better one) there you are hunting zebra wit your 338 and a GREAT boss buffalo or elephant shows up and they are on the menu for you. The answer here is an obvious one. the 375 will handily cover the situation. The same goes for the reverse of the situation and you ave a biggger caliber where the extra trajectory is not available. the bottom line is, that the cartridge HAS been improved in the past and people were just not interested. Just like the 06, it just plain works so why mess with it? Guess what rifle I'm taking for my upcoming trip to Zimbabwe? Jorge

Q: Is this oldster all it's cracked up to be?
A: Yes

Q: Wouldn't adding some velocity help it along when used for longer range work, and give it a bit more "thump" for up close shooting at big animals?
A: No.

Q: Is it truly a compromise caliber that is useful for most things but really great at nothing? Other than being able to fill in for anything!
A: Sort of.

Opinion: Passions run deep regarding this old hag of a caliber, what are yours?

It is the big brother of the .30-06 for Hunters with a capital H. It has a perfectly fine trajectory for those ranges in which 95% or more of game is shot. It has a range of bullet weights that thump just fine at this velocity. It does not kick one iota more than it NEEDS to and can be handled quite nicely in rifles that weigh 9 pounds. It will kill the biggest, most dangerous game with a well placed shot, and the biggest rifle a man can carry will not kill it with a bad shot.

Make it faster and it kicks harder without giving any more killing ability. Maybe you increase the PBR from 250 to 270 yards.

Enough trajectory, enough diameter, enough weight. Anything more is not better, just more.

Is it a compromise? Yes, but that depends on what you want to use it for. Any caliber is going to be a compromise if you try to use it for everything. A little big for small stuff, a little small for big stuff, but able to take either with ease.

To replace it you would need at least three other rifles and that says a lot to me.

John, it's funny how so many of these threads lead back to the .375 and how it compares to whatever is on the table at the moment. That alone is a huge compliment to this old warhorse of a cartridge.

My take on much of this is simple, I think all things considered, the .375 is the best all around cartridge ever devised on this planet but it fails in one small area-the recoil is at the point of being barely or not tolerable to a lot of shooters. I've seen guys who were macho as hell refuse to shoot my .375 a second time from my bench. I even find that target shooting with it for extended periods wears on me pretty fast. Adding more velocity would make it even more difficult. I guess we'll know when the .375 UM comes out so we have something to compare it to. (other than a couple of AI versions I have shot, which really loosen my fillings!)
However, when the chips are down, for just about any game that walks, the .375 H&H will do just about anything that a whole number of heavier and lighter calibers will do with little fuss and in a rifle that "most" riflemen can handle. The fact that it is inherently accurate, easy to load for, available in almost all manufacturers' lines, and has plenty of factory ammo available is just icing on the cake.- Sheister

Sheister,

What does your 375 weigh or what rifle do you have.

Also what loads are you using.

The original design of the 375 was about recoil, that is why it is not a 395 H&H.

The recoil is right at a threshold.

For a lot of use I like to use faster powders like out Australian counterpart of your IMR 3031. About 65 grains with 300s and 68 grains with 270s. This gives around 2400 and 2600 respectively.

Once you go much above this with say Re 15 loads, you start to find the rifle jumps about and wants to twist etc.

By the way, 39 grains of H4227 Extreme and 220 Hornadies seated to the cannelute will cut ragged hile groups, ariund 2000 f/s and who needs a rimfire

Mike

Mike, my first .375 was a Pre64 model 70. From my portable bench (which is built a bit too low for my taste) it was brutal to shoot. From offhand, it was bearable but after a full day I needed a couple days to recover from the bruises raised at the bench.

My present .375 is also a Pre 64 Model 70 which I am restocking with a better stock for scope use, as the original stock is cut for iron sight use. (besides, it has a small crack from the front receiver screw to the tang area.)The new stock will get an excellent decellerator pad and will weigh in about 9.5-10 pounds, without scope, approximately. That should handle most of the objectionable pain, eh?

After some shooting and practice, I'm sure it will be fine to shoot- after all, my .338 was a handful the first couple times I shot it and now it is a pussycat. However, I find that many people won't put in the time to learn to shoot the medium bores effectively, so they give up on them prematurely.

You are probably right about the loads. I was using Hornady .270's with H4831 and I don't remember what else and they were pretty stout loads. I'll have to give your "plinker" loads a try. - Sheister

I've found that in my fairly ltwt .375 (8 1/2 lbs with scope) that a 300gr Nosler at 2550 fps is about my recoil threshold...drop down to 2500 fps and I can tell the difference but the animals never seem to know. AT 2450 fps it is a pussycat and still gives plenty of energy and a flat enough trajectory to make 300 yard shots if I want....past that and I want to "make a new plan".

Is the .375 for everyone? NO ... but it could be and therein lies the essence of the worlds premier hunting cartridge.

I have no problem with the .375- just so long as it's someone else using it, not me. As a DGR it is limp. As a long range rifle it is mediocre. The best of all worlds?

I could use the 375 H&H for the rest of my life without any concern, on all animals, I don't think thats a big decision, it will work 99% of the time...and with todays bullets such as the monlithics, and the new 350 gr. Woodleigh, the Northforks, and Gerards solids, I think the old bugger is better than ever, if fact it may be as good as anything else..

Prior to these wonder bullets it was neither fish nor fowl IMHO, but things have changed and I'm taking another look at the 375 thats been sitting in my gun cabinet, neglected for a couple of years.....

I prefer to use a 40 cal. for dangerous game, because I think its better, with the same bullets...Maybe.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

JohnDL-
My sentiments exactly! I truly believe it is the most overrated caliber ever created. If I never had to look at, let alone hunt with another 375H&H it would be too soon!
Ray-
We've had good bullets for the 375 for years, they still don't make it a 416 or 450 when THAT IS what you really want for buffalo. And they don't make it a 300mag when you want a rifle to pot Tommies with at long range. It's still a caliber for the person who can't decide or doesn't know any better.

Roll up your sleaves, this could get ugly.

WoW... This might sound strange... but I somewhat see the 416s as a greater compromise then the 375 H&H. I view the the 416s like I view the 375... as a hunting rifle, not a "stopping rifle". When I first hunted with a 416 rem I was skeptical as if it would actualy hit game much harder then the 375... on the first few animals I shot it became immediatly appearent that it did hit'em harder, however it has never set in my mind that it was a stopper. I believe that stopping rifle start with 458s/500 at 2150 and never have felt that the 416 came close to my 450 ackley, even when the ackley is loaded "down" at 2150 (incidently... at 2150 any of the 458 are very reliable cartridges at 200 yards on the largest thin skinned game).

So, for me, the compromise comes in the form of the 416, as one of the heaviest recoiling HUNTING rifles. Recoil has never been much of a bother to me, my uppper limit I care to shoot prone however is the 375.
Honestly... the 375 suits me just fine for hunting. If I have a bigger reason to worry about the next best to grab AT LEAST two steps up... the 458s

Smallfry-
I agree with your post regarding the 416, I was not as impressed with it as I wanted to be. However, I do believe it thumps buffalo a bit better than a 375 does. True stopping rifles still start at 450 bore, IMO. But a better HUNTING round for buffalo is still a 416.

Ray,
My comments were not meant to put down the 375l John's question was if the 375 was right for everybody. I've got nothing against the 375, heck I own 3 of them. If I were going to, say, Zimbabwe for large plainsgame where I didn't expect a long shot I would take one in a heartbeat. I feel comfortable with larger rifles and so I use one. The other day I was at the range and met a guy about to go to Tanzania for 3 weeks. He had a 375. He had a terrible flinch and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. I certainly wouldn't recommend that he step up to a 460.

I think the 375 is a good compromise caliber and a great all rounder. I used my 416 Rigby on buffalo on my first safari and a 338 Win mag for the light stuff. I have since purchased a 375HH. I had shot a couple of these before going on safari and the recoil is quite a bit less than the 416's in my opinion. In fact I think it is very managable for most people while the 416's and up are not. I think the "new and improved" 375's will have more recoil and not be as wanted by alot of people. I would not replace the 416 as my favorite buffalo rifle with the 375 but I will take the 375 along on my next buffalo hunt for plains game and a back up for my 416. If I get a chance to just plains game hunt I will take the 375 and the 338. As far as stopping a buffalo I think that nothing short of a brain shot would do and a 300 grainer from a 375HH would do just fine. If it comes to that lets hope your PH shoots straight too. He'll be carrying the "stopper". My partner and I are planning our second safari and the 375 will be with us. Our battery will probably be 470NE, 416 Rigby, 375HH and 338 Win mag.
I would not want a stopping rifle in 375 or replace my 416 with it as a buffalo rifle but I think it would do in a pinch. Also it's a great plains game rifle for the big stuff and I can think of nothing better for lion. The rifle's recoil tends to lend itself to a nice light gathering scope which could be handy for hunting the cats. For someone that is really bothered by the 416's recoil the 375HH is not a compromise but the best choice.

John S,

The 375 is a compromise. It will kill any size plains game at moderate distances and it will kill buffalo. Is it as good as a 300 to "pot Tommies at long range"? NO. It is as good at a 450 for STOPPING buffalo? NO. [Will the 300 STOP buffalo? NO Will the 450 "pot Tommies at long range"? NO].

But for the average person on the average safari, it is the best compromise of power, range and recoil that they are going to need.

Regards,

Terry

Here's my view: a .375 H&H is an excellent cartridge, but I shoot a .378 Weatherby and I love it. In my opinion, the .375 is great, but the .378 is better. I shoot a .416 Weatherby as well, and I like it better than the venerable .416 Rigby for the same reason I like .378 over the .375: it is big fast loud and powerful and shoots large bullets with great accuracy. And the .378 has been around now for close to 50 years, which means someone buys these guns and bullets...the .378, and cartridge like it (375/404, for example), are not some passing fad. There has always been a group of shooter-hunters who have recognized the value of the .378 and other similar cartridges. Our esteemed and gracious host, Saeed, shoots a .375/404, a wildcat in the same class as the .378, and I think mimicked by the .375 Ultra Mag. These are modern cartridges being shot in modern rifles. I believe that the reason people use these modern cartridges over the .375 is because they work better. I have shot plains game in Africa with my .378 and it kills with authority. And I carry it here in Alaska with great confidence that it will do what I expect it to do. As for me, I want a .450 Vincent Long.

the reason there are so many calibers is that no two people are the same. Some people go to africa to justify having an assortment of big tubes. The 375 will do it all if need be. I dont take high risk shots on safari for obvious reasons. I have however killed four of the big five with my 375 with no crips or need for backup. But if you dont mind buying several rifles and who wouldnt, and paying ammo taxes , the big boys are loads of fun.

Hi guys,

This is my first post here. I have been standing outside the campfire listening to everyone's conversation for a month or so. I hope you don't mind if I pull up a chair.

So, here is my two cents.

Many valid points have been brought up. Here is something else to ponder:

In three different guns, 375H&H, 416 Rem & 458 all of the same weight, 10 lbs, the recoil is approx;

375 - 300 gr bullet - 35ft lbs of recoil
416 - 400 gr bullet - 45ft lbs of recoil
458 - 500 gr bullet - 54ft lbs of recoil

These are approximate, but fairly close. I think they are within, +/- 3 or 4 ft lbs.

Anyway, I thought you might enjoy some stats.

------------------
Wendell Reich
Hunter's Quest International
wendell@huntersquest.com

John DL,
That was the fastest 180 degree turn I've ever seen.

Is the .375 H&H for everyone? Certainly not.

It is, however, definitely for me. I am one of those poor unfortunates that John S refers to

quote:

---

who can't decide or doesn't know any better.

---

I have twenty years experience with the cartridge and that counts for a lot in the confidence department. Both my rifles are long term possessions and I am very comfortable with my reloads. Such familiarity allows me to know what is going to happen when I pull the trigger.

As I have not hunted dangerous game, I cannot comment intelligently upon that issue. When I get to Africa you can bet my M70 .375 will be with me. For buffalo and such I would plan on using a 500 NE. My .375 and I really want a leopard!

While the .375 H&H is undoubtedly capable of taking the larger DG, I will not do so as a novice hunter. I will be shooting a big bore. Perhaps if I can get to Africa several times, I would have the experience and confidence to use the .375 on something bigger.

Regardless of what many are currently espousing, the venerable .375 H&H did not achieve it's following without justification. It is an all purpose cartridge and, as such, does indeed represent compromise in certain scenarios. I acknowledge those compromises and accept them. And I go forth with my favourite calibre....

Regards,

------------------
~Holmes

"Those who appease a tiger do so in the hope that the tiger will eat them last."
-Winston Churchill

The kind of thread where asses get kicked and names get taken...!

As an owner/operator of one of these it is the only rifle I reach for when heading for the bush - 375H&H and 300gr Barnes-X RULE!!!

The cartridge was never meant for long range - it was invented in 1912 when decent optics for rifles hadn't been created yet.

100% of the rifles bound for Africa in those days were open-sighted sporters. If you saw an animal and it was 250yds away you did not shoot you stalked it til you got within range where you could take a confident shot.

The 375 remains the finest calibre for the occasional Safari hunter who wants to:

Take a wide variety of animals from medium to dangerous with a fair margin for error.

Not batter himself unnecessarily.

Have the ammo available in deepest Africa.

Cheers

pete

Pete-
If the cartridge was never intended to shoot at long range, why did H&H and other makers put all of those 5 leaf express sights on the guns?

Everyone-
This has been and continues to be a great discussion! We all have our preferences and that's as it should be, that's why there are the many choices available. Besides that, a thread like this gives each of us a chance to have a bit of fun with the other side!

John,

I don't agree with Pete and the 375's design as to long range use.

We have to keep in mind that the 375 was introduced at a time when a lot more shooting was done, than is now the case.

I have proven to myself over the years that if a lot of shooting is done, trajectory does not seem to matter too much for long range hits.

When we get you down to Australia you can compare your 300 Mag to my 375 and see how you go

Mike

It seems like the only valid criticism anyone can come up with against the .375 H&H is that it is not two rifles.

Sure a .300 Magnum with 180 grain bullets is great for long range (say over 350 yards) shooting. Sure a .416 or .458 of some kind is better at stopping an angry large beastie.

But would you want to try precisely shooting a mid-sized animal at 375 yards with your .458? Would you like to try to stop a large animal 50 feet away with a .300 Magnum with a muzzle velocity of 3100 fps?

While the .375 may not be the optimum for the above two scenarios, it would not embarrass itself at either. The main reason to use a .375 H&H is that it might have to be used for both on the same day.

Mostly, though, what the .375 H&H is good for is whacking the hell out of ALL of the hoofed and horned animals in Africa or anywhere else, smallest to largest, from spitting distance to as far as most folks can reasonably shoot. For that use it is absolutely superb.

I wonder, since the 375 is such a weak and docile caliber on this forum, why it is the number one choice of PH's in Africa? and has survived a hundred years in the bushveld...

Sure there may be better calibers out there, but to put this old dog down in such a manor is dispectable and brings to mind a little knowledge is a dangerous thing...

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Does the 375 have a lot of recoil? I've never noticed, whether I'm at the range and especially not while hunting. Its a rifle, and it kicks, but it doesn't hurt, at all, no matter how many times I fire it. All my friends who fire mine are dissapoited at the recoil. And its not that heavy either, I carry it round all day.

So IMHO, Recoil has nothing to do with the argument. And it kills well 99% of the time as Ray said. And it's good for any animal, maybe not the best for every animal, but good for all of them. So why wouldn't it be considered a terrific calibre? What other calibre can do all of this, bearing in mind, weight, recoil, expense, reliability, availability........

Opinion only, but I love it.

Happy hunting

Cameron

Jim,
Your points are valid and the scenarios you give would lend credence to the versatality of the 375. But....
I've never, and I truly mean never, had to stop an angry buffalo at 50ft with my 300, nor try taking a 350yd shot with my 460G&A. Why? Well...because when I'm buffalo hunting I'm not carrying the 300 and when I'm out on the plains after a Tommie or whatever I'm not carrying the 460.
I think a lot of people have the idea that one always just bumps into certain game while out walking about. Might happen but in my experience we are never out just walking about looking for nothing in particular. We can't afford the time to do this! We are out driving, going from one area to another to hunt a specific animal, as a general rule. The day's hunting plans are laid out in the morning over coffee. If we cut buffalo tracks across the trail, on the way to an area that holds roan, for example, we then determine what we want to do with them. If buffalo is the menu for the day, which it usually is , we grab the big gun and take a walk. If we walk up on something else it would have to be a pretty special something to risk a shot and spook our main quarry.
Another point is that if we felt the area could hold something we want, besides what we are about to go after, I have a tracker carry the 300, or the 460 as the case may be, and then if that ?? IS spotted the rifles can be switched and the shot taken.
All of this plays into the hunter's choice of weapons, how and where a person is hunting determines this. If someone else prefers to spend each and every day out wandering about, hoping to bump into something then a 375 might possibly be the best choice. But that scenario is rarely the case due to time constraints and the hunter's desire to collect a full bag of trophys. The most important ones are usually concentrated on until taken, especially something major like a buffalo.

Howdy John,

Oh, I know most of this discussion involves making a conclusion and then finding the evidence to support it. You�re right in that one is usually after one animal or the other, or at least one general class of animals and so can arm oneself accordingly.

I have only been on the one safari this past May and this was my first experience with a .375. I had put just over 400 rounds though mine this winter/spring in practice. But I was really impressed with the way it knocked the snot out of a wildebeest, zebra and kudu at closer range, but then let me take an approximately 300 yard shot on a gemsbok way out on an open plain (one shot drop in his tracks kill, BTW). I liked the fact that I did not have two rifles to worry about and did not have to remember which ammo carrier I grabbed in the morning, just bring the .375.

I purposely left it at the lodge and took the .30-06 when we were on certain properties in the Free State and I knew the only animal we�d be hunting were springbok and blesbok. But up in northern RSA when shots could be 20 yards in the bush or 200 across the openings at impala through kudu, the .375 was the one to bring. I really, really like it. Just as much as I like my .30-06 here in the USA.

There really are no right or wrong answers here. I think the original question was whether the .375 H&H was right for everybody,and obviously the answer is no.

It is only for the smart folks who know what�s what!

(C�mon, I�m only kidding y�all, just couldn�t resist throwing in that little poke ).

Hey Jim-
I am glad that your 375 served you well on that hunt, that's what it is all about in the end!
There is not and will never be a cartridge that pleases all of the hunters all of the time, even the 375!
Each of us can offer up a good argument for or against any cartrifge ever created, just depends upon how we perceive things. For me, I hate compromises because I'm a nitpicker who has to have it just so. To shoot a buffalo and not use a true "buffalo" rifle wouldn't be fun, nor would shooting p'dogs with a 300mag. be much fun!
If having to worry about two ammo carriers or extra scopes or whatever is what it takes to get happy, then pass the extra ammo carriers and let's go hunting.

The truth is one caliber is about as good as another within reason, but that sure takes the fun out of these little conversations..

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

"Its still the caliber for people who cant decide or dont know any better."

Now John, those are fighting words!

Do Saeed or Bjorn Klappe not "know any better?"

I realize your position as a moderator is like the Socratic gadfly. you are here to stimulate conversation. But really. Why is a 375 for people who dont know any better?

I have never seen quicker (instantaneous) kills on bison than with the 375 improved and a 250, 275 or 300 gr Biterroot. No eye relflex when you walk up to them from 30 feet away. And this with a heart shot! Same result from spine shot.

Try this with a 300 weatherby and you will get gored!

Ive tried it, have you?

As for the 375 being used at long range. the longest shot I ever made on 6 x 6 elk was 500 yards with 270 WW power point.

Factory ammo. Hit second to last rib and down with one shot.

thats frontal area. Try this with a 300?

I have.

thats why I shoot a 375 improved!

My 375 improved with a variety of 250-300 gr bullets takes 9.5 to 11 inches elevation at 100 yd to be on at 500 yd. this is not some paper ballistics but actual use on my 900 yd range. Zero on 12 inch steel dinger, then move up to 100 and measure elevation.

I can do as well at 600 yd with my 300 weatherby, so you only have a 100 yd advantage with the little 300. this may not be as much as the ballistic tables suggest but you loose any exposed lead above 2900 fps, so those spitzers at 3200 fps are actually pretty dumpy.

Try it on a KD (known distance) range and youll see Im right.

I love my 300 wea. I shoot a 180 Bitterroot at 3380 fps (26 inch stainless and .309 bore dia), but it is not a 375.

Andy

John,

"....To shoot a buffalo and not use a true "buffalo" rifle wouldn't be fun"

Would you be kind enough to explain to us what in your opinion is a true buffalo rifle please?

And how does that affect our pleasure of hunting buffalo?

------------------
saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

For 89 years the 375 H&H has been a "true buffalo rifle".