Cape Buff Horn Genetics

05 November 2011, 05:13

Todd Williams

quote:
Originally posted by Code4:
Just read ( yeah, accurate info ) that Cape Buffalo horn genetics are carried by the female. Can anyone substantiate this ?

I was commenting about the female being the primary genetic carrier for trophy genes within the Whitetail Deer herd on another forum last week. My statements came from Dr. James Kroll, sometimes known as Dr. Deer in the US, and his research with AI deer herds.

When I stated that Dr. Kroll's position was that the Doe's genes are more important than the Buck's in determining trophy quality, several guys who are pretty heavy into cattle ranching chimed in and stated that that is a well known topic in the cattle business. I'm not a rancher so am only passing along the info. Several guys stated that many ranches will have only 1 or 2 Bulls that breed their cows, but the cows that produce the best offspring do so year after year. Change Bulls, and those same cows still produce the best offspring.

I would assume it to be the same with all Bovines?

05 November 2011, 05:50

kld

What difference could it possibly make?

05 November 2011, 06:05

Crazyhorseconsulting

What is not mentioned here is that 50% of the genetics on any animal come from each parent.

The male provides 50% and the female provides 50%.

That is why, with white tails, the proper sex ratio is one buck to one doe. With cattle/buffalo/bison/sheep/goats/pronghorns, etc. the equation works differently. The females will pass along their genetics, which include the genetics of their parents. Same thing happens with the bull or buck but because deer antlers are shed annually the genetics work differently than with horned animals, that do not shed their horns annually. Genetics play a role, but so do age, and nutrition.

With pronghorns it is even more confusing because they shed the outer horn sheath and then re-grow that. from what my wife and I have experienced from the sheep we raise, age and nutrition are mor important than genetics.

05 November 2011, 06:15

Code4

Todd, I hadn't read your post but someone somewhere may have run with it. I read it as specifically relating to African Cape Buffalo.

I also assumed it related to a specific gene such as the Haemophiliac gene which is a recessive sex linked gene (not male exclusive however).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haemophilia

Granted both parents contribute genes but I read it as being the female cape buff that carrys the gene that determines horn size/growth/development.

If that was the case then all you would need is a (singular) male Buff to inseminate the females. The biggest and strongest for herd health but not necessarily for trophy quality.

Edit: Please note, my knowledge of genetics is rudimentary.

05 November 2011, 09:32

Todd Williams

Listen guys, I am not posting from a position of expert knowledge here. I was just passing along part of a discussion I had on another forum a few days ago. I know next to nothing about genetics of bovines! Just thought the discussion was interesting.

Cheers,

Todd

05 November 2011, 11:16

MOA TACTICAL

My animal science teacher at the University used to say you can't breed good bulls to piss poor cows and get quality, or vise versa, both sides need to be quality.

Shit plus shit is shit!

Good plus shit is still shit.

05 November 2011, 18:26

Aspen Hill Adventures

06 November 2011, 04:32

JBoutfishn

quote:
Originally posted by MOA TACTICAL:
My animal science teacher at the University used to say you can't breed good bulls to piss poor cows and get quality, or vise versa, both sides need to be quality.

Shit plus shit is shit!

Good plus shit is still shit.

Same goes for running stock. Breed the best to the best and hope for the best. There are exceptions like Secretariat. He did not sire great runners but his daughters bread to top sires had good results. Lots to it.

06 November 2011, 05:39

Cross L

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by Code4:
Just read ( yeah, accurate info ) that Cape Buffalo horn genetics are carried by the female. Can anyone substantiate this ?

I was commenting about the female being the primary genetic carrier for trophy genes within the Whitetail Deer herd on another forum last week. My statements came from Dr. James Kroll, sometimes known as Dr. Deer in the US, and his research with AI deer herds.

When I stated that Dr. Kroll's position was that the Doe's genes are more important than the Buck's in determining trophy quality, several guys who are pretty heavy into cattle ranching chimed in and stated that that is a well known topic in the cattle business. I'm not a rancher so am only passing along the info. Several guys stated that many ranches will have only 1 or 2 Bulls that breed their cows, but the cows that produce the best offspring do so year after year. Change Bulls, and those same cows still produce the best offspring.

I would assume it to be the same with all Bovines?

You are correct about the cows, but are taking the wrong lesson from the example. All your statement proves is that some cows are better than others. it says nothing about the sire.

SSR

07 November 2011, 02:19

Code4

Well no one from Africa has contributed to this so I guess it's a non event.

07 November 2011, 03:19

JBrown

quote:
Originally posted by MOA TACTICAL:
My animal science teacher at the University used to say you can't breed good bulls to piss poor cows and get quality, or vise versa, both sides need to be quality.

Shit plus shit is shit!

Good plus shit is still shit.

That is probably 100% true, but we are not talking about "beef cattle quality"(which would mean good quality/quantity meat) but rather horn quality.

So my question to you, MOA TACTICAL, does the same hold true for horn quality in bovines?

Jason

"You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core."
_______________________

Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt.

Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry
Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure.

-Jason Brown

07 November 2011, 03:26

JBrown

With Invetro(sp?) fertilization I would think one bull could produce a horde of offspring. And, with that in mind, the seller of the bull that was auctioned would have been smart enough to have a stockpile of this bull's "DNA" on ice.

07 November 2011, 03:59

Matt Graham

You would need to ask a specialist wildlife geneticist to get a definitive answer but there is a fair chance that that research has not evenbeen conducted. There is so much that we do NOT know about wildlife genetics. IMO - I would seriously doubt that horn characteristics would be a result of one parent only, at least not in the genotype of the progeny.

07 November 2011, 05:43

MOA TACTICAL

I am not saying every single animal on the planet is the same, but there is a lot of cross over.

If you want big horns you need it on both sides of the isle. Mom's gotta have big horns in her family and so does dad.

You can spend a ton of money buying quality bucks/boars/rams/stags/bulls/stallions and breeding them to crap, but the odds are that your quality will increase very slowly.

The only known way to increase quality is by breeding the best to the best.

Doesn't matter if it is Aardwolves or Zebras.

There is a zoo (to use the term loosly) in Reno, Nevada that has what I think is the best looking male African lion on the planet, zoos from all over North America have borrowed his genes to increase the quality of their zoo lion manes.

But it only worked when the females that the lion were bred to had good hair in their genes.

07 November 2011, 05:44

MOA TACTICAL

Think of it this way if Gilbert Godfrey had a kid with Heidi Klum, would the kid be as good looking as Heidi or would it just be less ugly than Gilbert?

I think just less ugly!

07 November 2011, 07:00

Matt Graham

Thanks - now I am thinking about Gilbert humping Heidi.... yuk!!!

07 November 2011, 07:11

cable68

Genetics get complicated. I doubt they have sequenced cape buffalo DNA, but with the disease free herds being bred in RSA they may be getting some ideas.

If the gene for horn length happens to be on the sex determining chromosomes, it could easily be that the mother is more important than the father.