What if a hunter does cancel due to the virus?

_______________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
www.CalPappas.com
www.CalPappas.blogspot.com
1994 Zimbabwe
1997 Zimbabwe
1998 Zimbabwe
1999 Zimbabwe
1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation
2000 Australia
2002 South Africa
2003 South Africa
2003 Zimbabwe
2005 South Africa
2005 Zimbabwe
2006 Tanzania
2006 Zimbabwe--vacation
2007 Zimbabwe--vacation
2008 Zimbabwe
2012 Australia
2013 South Africa
2013 Zimbabwe
2013 Australia
2016 Zimbabwe
2017 Zimbabwe
2018 South Africa
2018 Zimbabwe--vacation
2019 South Africa
2019 Botswana
2019 Zimbabwe vacation
2021 South Africa
2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later)
______________________________

08 March 2020, 00:13

30.06king

In my experience, airlines will offer some form of recompense if they cancel flights. The recompense can be far less than ideal however, as I have found. Best to book with reputable carriers.

Many Outfitters have cancellation / refund policy details outlined in a hunt contract and these details can be obtained before hunts are booked. I think one would also need to enquire if Coronavirus related cancellations specifically are considered to be included. I'm sure with many outfitters if you have a track record some accommodation is possible for cancellation.

Not Coronavirus related but I was booked to do a mountain hunt in 2019. Slow healing post knee surgery forced me to cancel. In discussuion with the outfitter he offered full deposit refund - no questions. I was afraid my deposit was gone. However my aim was to do the hunt and we just rebooked for this year. I think we both won and I couldn't be happier with this result.

08 March 2020, 05:51

Saeed

Answer to your question.

Non at all.

Let us be realistic, take responsibility for our own actions.

If a hunter cancels, for any reason, it is HIS responsibility.

No one else’s.

If the outfitter or PH he is hunting with can help in the refund, or re-book, it is entirely up to him.

Remember that he also has responsibilities.

He has to pay for all the arrangements he made on your behalf.

And it is certainly not a pleasant thing for him to be left out of pocket.

We have seen here where a client had to cancel for health reasons, and in most cases the ones he has booked with have been very kind in response.

That is great, and tells you more about the character of the people involved.

Here we have an entirely different situation.

It is affecting everyone, and to try to put the onus on the other side is not fair at all.

I won’t go to the Far East right now, but I have no problem flying anywhere else.

In fact, I am going to the airport in about an hour.

Schools brought forward the break, and we are heading out to the Alps.

08 March 2020, 05:56

Saeed

I should have added.

Different airlines have different rules.

Some airlines have different rules regarding refunds depending on the type of ticket you hold.

Look at the small print.

I have seen very cheap tickets where basically if you do not show up at the gate at a specific time you are screwed.

No refund.

No re-book.

That is why these tickets are heavily discounted.

08 March 2020, 15:52

larryshores

I have to agree with Saeed. If the hunter cancels, it is the hunters issue.

08 March 2020, 17:32

Labman

quote:
(We all know what Bushwack would do).

Great post.

08 March 2020, 20:15

INTREPID SAFARIS

Zaeed...hats of too you Sir!! one of the best answers and reply's I've seen on this forum! Of cause as an Outfitter we want the client to hunt and be in camp but cancelling a hunt on short notice about a virus that have almost the same mortality rate as regular flue is not going to be nice for the outfitter and his entire crew of people that sole income is generated from the success of a hunt

08 March 2020, 20:53

tanks

My view is that if the cancellation is due to events out of hunter's control then maybe the outfitter should accommodate.

For me this means all flights to destination are cancelled.

If I can't get there then I can't hunt.

BTW, so far the mortality rate of Covid-19 is about 2-3% the common flu is 0.1% huge difference. Not to mention the mortality rate for those that are over 60 is close to 15%. Again, a huge difference.

08 March 2020, 21:08

crane

Please stop quoting mortality figures. There is no way to calculate mortality without widespread testing which has not happened and likely will not in the foreseeable future. These folks who are putting those numbers out should be ashamed. How many thousands or hundreds of thousands have had the virus with very mid symptoms or asymptomatic?
Had a pal in the insurance business look at a trip we are on through Dubai and on to the Seychelles in a couple of weeks. Executive Summary- Unless the outfitter accommodates there is no recourse.

08 March 2020, 22:47

vvreddy

I think a bigger problem is the likelihood of an involuntary two week vacation extension on your return i.e. quarantine.

08 March 2020, 22:57

LittleJoe

quote:
Originally posted by vvreddy:
I think a bigger problem is the likelihood of an involuntary two week vacation extension on your return i.e. quarantine.

Absolutely agree. I am not worried about getting the virus. I am not worried about traveling to the destination. I am absolutely worried about being delayed coming home.

09 March 2020, 00:54

CanadianLefty

quote:
Originally posted by crane:
Please stop quoting mortality figures.

Please use the only reliable data that we currently have available from the CDC, WHO, John's Hopkins etc. and STOP sharing speculation without any fact or data basis whatsoever.

We should be helping each other.

Italy just quarantined 16 Million people last night. There will be more quarantines going into effect in other countries to different extents and the consensus expert data and opinion from the CDC and WHO is that mortality rates are definitely significantly higher than influenza.

09 March 2020, 01:01

tanks

quote:
Originally posted by CanadianLefty:
quote:
Originally posted by crane:
Please stop quoting mortality figures.

Please use the only reliable data that we currently have available from the CDC, WHO, John's Hopkins etc. and STOP sharing speculation without any fact or data basis whatsoever.

...the consensus expert data and opinion from the CDC and WHO is that mortality rates are definitely significantly higher than influenza.

Yep, the percentages I used at an earlier post was from CDC.

09 March 2020, 01:16

tanks

quote:
Originally posted by CanadianLefty:
...
Italy just quarantined 16 Million people last night. There will be more quarantines going into effect in other countries to different extents...

A friend of mine works for a major news organization. She was just told this Friday that if she left NYC then after her return she'd have to work out of her home for the following two weeks. Also, no concerts, events etc. for employees.

09 March 2020, 01:49

crane

How would the CDC, Hopkins, WHO, etc gather accurate stats without testing? The numbers being thrown around cause a sense of unease that is harmful. Have yet to see any media that leads with the fact that we just don't have any idea on numbers and severity.

09 March 2020, 01:49

muzza

Now's the time to go on a ten day cruise , have an outbreak , and get an extra 14 days of cruising for free

09 March 2020, 02:32

ChrisTroskie

quote:
Originally posted by muzza:
Now's the time to go on a ten day cruise , have an outbreak , and get an extra 14 days of cruising for free

Well if one were to regard sitting in your cabin and having nowhere else to go, having food left outside your cabin door while you’re stranded outside a Port... “cruising”... then I guess this could be the ideal vacation for some...

Not for me though...

09 March 2020, 03:08

Slider

https://www.foxnews.com/health...uise-ships-no-travel

09 March 2020, 04:25

zebrazapper

If I cancel any trip, safari or otherwise because of concerns with this outbreak, that’s my responsibility alone. Why should someone else be expected to share in the financial consequences of a decision that is solely mine?

09 March 2020, 05:13

CanadianLefty

quote:
Originally posted by crane:
How would the CDC, Hopkins, WHO, etc gather accurate stats without testing? The numbers being thrown around cause a sense of unease that is harmful. Have yet to see any media that leads with the fact that we just don't have any idea on numbers and severity.

You are simply incorrect. I don't think any amount of data will change your denial.

Here's another way to explain mortality rate:

quote:
DR. GOTTLIEB (former FDA commissioner): -- South Korea and China. Remember, when you look at the South Korea data, the case fatality rate in South Korea right now is 0.6. But the time to death is three to six weeks. And most of the cases were diagnosed in the last 10 days. Time to hospitalization is nine to twelve days. So, most of these people in South Korea haven't worked through the severe stages of this- of this disease. The case fatality rate will go up. And I'll- one more point, you have to make a distinction between the case fatality rate and the infection fatality rate. We talk in medicine about the case fatality rate: how many people who get the disease will die? Some people are talking about the infection fatality rate. How many people who get the infection will die? That's not what we focus on in medicine because we know that some people will get the infection but not be symptomatic. We typically don't count those. We count people who get the disease. And for that, the case fatality rate probably- it might not reach one percent in our system, but it might get close to that. It's not 0.1. And that's the seasonal flu. And it's not .05 and that's a mild flu season.

That's potentially 10x to 20x the death rate of the flu.

Source: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/t...nation-march-8-2020/

09 March 2020, 05:54

BaxterB

Question: how did northern Italy get so many cases, diagnose so many cases, and have so many deaths in such a short time?

I haven’t seen a great report that explains what seems to be an anomaly.

09 March 2020, 06:24

tanks

quote:
Originally posted by BaxterB:
Question: how did northern Italy get so many cases, diagnose so many cases, and have so many deaths in such a short time?

I haven’t seen a great report that explains what seems to be an anomaly.

I think that was due to the carnival that attracted thousands of people from around the world, most of them jam packed at events.

09 March 2020, 06:38

Lhook7

quote:
Originally posted by zebrazapper:
If I cancel any trip, safari or otherwise because of concerns with this outbreak, that’s my responsibility alone. Why should someone else be expected to share in the financial consequences of a decision that is solely mine?

I completely agree.

09 March 2020, 06:41

crane

Lefty- So now we are talking semantics? Gottleib confirms my point. The number of cases is unknown. They( the medical community) are using as a point of reference their ability to diagnose the flu. Certainly not apples and apples.

09 March 2020, 06:46

Lhook7

quote:
Originally posted by CanadianLefty:
quote:
Originally posted by crane:
How would the CDC, Hopkins, WHO, etc gather accurate stats without testing? The numbers being thrown around cause a sense of unease that is harmful. Have yet to see any media that leads with the fact that we just don't have any idea on numbers and severity.

You are simply incorrect. I don't think any amount of data will change your denial.

Here's another way to explain mortality rate:

quote:
DR. GOTTLIEB (former FDA commissioner): -- South Korea and China. Remember, when you look at the South Korea data, the case fatality rate in South Korea right now is 0.6. But the time to death is three to six weeks. And most of the cases were diagnosed in the last 10 days. Time to hospitalization is nine to twelve days. So, most of these people in South Korea haven't worked through the severe stages of this- of this disease. The case fatality rate will go up. And I'll- one more point, you have to make a distinction between the case fatality rate and the infection fatality rate. We talk in medicine about the case fatality rate: how many people who get the disease will die? Some people are talking about the infection fatality rate. How many people who get the infection will die? That's not what we focus on in medicine because we know that some people will get the infection but not be symptomatic. We typically don't count those. We count people who get the disease. And for that, the case fatality rate probably- it might not reach one percent in our system, but it might get close to that. It's not 0.1. And that's the seasonal flu. And it's not .05 and that's a mild flu season.
That's potentially 10x to 20x the death rate of the flu.

Source: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/t...nation-march-8-2020/

I fail to see how anything you have posted here refutes Crane’s post. One must have both sides of the equation in order to have real results, anything else is simply speculation regardless of who is doing the speculating.

09 March 2020, 06:48

Jason P

quote:
Originally posted by Slider:
https://www.foxnews.com/health...uise-ships-no-travel

We have booked and paid for a cruise in May. We planned on taking my son who is graduating from high school. Still planning on going but the odds are decreasing

09 March 2020, 08:35

CanadianLefty

Lhook, please see here: http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/2971078752

There is ample current and evolving data of the severity of Covid-19 vs. flu.

09 March 2020, 08:39

Texas Blue Devil

quote:
Originally posted by Lhook7:
quote:
Originally posted by zebrazapper:
If I cancel any trip, safari or otherwise because of concerns with this outbreak, that’s my responsibility alone. Why should someone else be expected to share in the financial consequences of a decision that is solely mine?

I completely agree.

I also agree, unless the safari operator's country closes.

If you had a March hunt in China, it would be nearly impossible to get there. Also if you were able to leave the foreign country, you would be quarantined for who knows how long.

09 March 2020, 09:18

Lhook7

quote:
Originally posted by CanadianLefty:
Lhook, please see here: http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/2971078752

There is ample current and evolving data of the severity of Covid-19 vs. flu.

The “evolving data” you reference above is not helping your steadfast position.

09 March 2020, 09:37

Beretta682E

I keep an eye on the running tab from south China post

https://www.scmp.com/news/chin...y-increase-new-cases

The Chinese govt sucked at first but there were brutal and efficient afterwards.

110k infected
4K dead
62k recovered

44k infected right now - I expect this number to keep declining.

Not sure how the rest of the world does.

Mike

09 March 2020, 10:26

CanadianLefty

quote:
Originally posted by Lhook7:

The “evolving data” you reference above is not helping your steadfast position.

The only thing that I am steadfast about is keeping current with the latest DATA. This is a rapidly evolving crisis.

Again, the most up to date data gathered from recognized institutions and world leading health experts (CDC, WHO etc.) have universally agreed that Covid-19 is significantly more deadly than the flu.

09 March 2020, 12:46

Saeed

Yesterday I flew from Dubai to Geneva.

A few passengers in Dubai airports had masks, but most did not.

At Geneva airports immigration they had signs asking people not to stand too close together.

That advice was very hard to follow, as the immigration hall was very small, and packed.

One Indian passenger, wearing a mask and busy on his phone, kept bumping onto me.

I told him to stay away from me, pointing to the signs.

He stayed about a meter behind me after that.

09 March 2020, 13:24

Saeed

I got a message asking what I would do.

So instead of answering in a message I will post my answer here.

I am in a bit of a special relationship with my PH.

I have known him and his family for many years.

We never had any written agreements.

We never discussed or argued about price or payments.

I go and hunt with him.

He sends me a bill whenever he feels like it.

I pay it the same day.

Our hunts are booked face to face or on the phone.

Neither of us has any doubts about the other.

If I have to cancel for any reason, I expect to pay any bill he sends me.

No questions asked.

09 March 2020, 14:05

Opus1

All of this should be addressed in the hunting agreement. The fees and deposits surrendered due to client cancellation is a basic part of any hunting agreement regardless of the reason. Outside of this, it really becomes the operator's prerogative how much further they wish to go.

The hysteria surrounding the Coronavirus is far worse than the actual virus. But we live in a new world of mass hysteria powered by the meia who has no other fake new stories to hype at the moment.

But for realists, it seems there will be lots of hunt cancellations this year (shocker) so lots of cheaper hunts coming up.

09 March 2020, 16:11

BaxterB

quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I keep an eye on the running tab from south China post

https://www.scmp.com/news/chin...y-increase-new-cases

The Chinese govt sucked at first but there were brutal and efficient afterwards.

110k infected
4K dead
62k recovered

44k infected right now - I expect this number to keep declining.

Not sure how the rest of the world does.

Mike

I also have been watching the China numbers from the WHO situation report. It seems that the new case reports have all but stopped considering there are so many still infected. WHO reported only 46 new cases yesterday, seems that number should be higher based on the number infected?

09 March 2020, 17:35

Lhook7

quote:
Originally posted by CanadianLefty:
quote:
Originally posted by Lhook7:

The “evolving data” you reference above is not helping your steadfast position.

The only thing that I am steadfast about is keeping current with the latest DATA. This is a rapidly evolving crisis.

Again, the most up to date data gathered from recognized institutions and world leading health experts (CDC, WHO etc.) have universally agreed that Covid-19 is significantly more deadly than the flu.

And I do not believe there is enough data to make any such judgements with any real reliability. It could turn out to be 100 times more deadly than the flu, it could just as easily turn out to be 100 times less deadly. All the misinformed panic in the world is not going to change how simple math works.

09 March 2020, 17:41

bwanamrm

Just got back from a couple of weeks hunting Uganda. Flew Qatar through Doha - route IAH-DOH-ENT. No issues other than about of a third of people in the Hammad Airport were wearing masks. Like Ebola, (which when the outbreak was on I flew to safari in Cameroon) your chance of contracting COVID-19 are slight. Certainly chances are next to nil if you stay at home, but that is always the case in life.

Go on safari. If all airports close and the world ends and you can't get there certainly you are due a refund. If not, don't let the media and the widespread panic scare you away from a good time.

A safari and a cruise are two very different trips, you will be in a concession with few people and have a greater chance of contracting malaria than COVID-19. In a month or so this will blow over, don't postpone your life based on fear...

On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died.

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch...
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!
- Rudyard Kipling

Life grows grim without senseless indulgence.

09 March 2020, 19:27

fairgame

quote:
Originally posted by bwanamrm:
Just got back from a couple of weeks hunting Uganda. Flew Qatar through Doha - route IAH-DOH-ENT. No issues other than about of a third of people in the Hammad Airport were wearing masks. Like Ebola, (which when the outbreak was on I flew to safari in Cameroon) your chance of contracting COVID-19 are slight. Certainly chances are next to nil if you stay at home, but that is always the case in life.

Go on safari. If all airports close and the world ends and you can't get there certainly you are due a refund. If not, don't let the media and the widespread panic scare you away from a good time.

A safari and a cruise are two very different trips, you will be in a concession with few people and have a greater chance of contracting malaria than COVID-19. In a month or so this will blow over, don't postpone your life based on fear...

Good stuff. How did you get on in Uganda?

09 March 2020, 19:37

Saeed

You won’t catch me dead on a cruise ship!

Being stuck on a floating coffin with 7000 soles is not my idea of fun.

09 March 2020, 19:53

bwanamrm

Great Andrew... hunted with 3 other guys in the Karamojo North concession of Uganda Wildlife Safaris. We shot 12 buffalo on that trip. I shot a Nile Buffalo, Cape Buffalo and a very nice old scrum cap! Also took Guenther's Dik Dik and a huge bodied Uganda warthog, weighed at 100 kilos even! Spent a few days in Aswa Lolim then I headed back. Rest of the guys are on to the Kafu River Basin. I've "been there, done that" so I just got home after a couple of weeks.