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Sable sub-specie, client photo's please
17 June 2004, 13:48
Balla BallaSable sub-specie, client photo's please
Dear Guests
I recently read the [ very interesting article ] in Hatari Times by Harald Wolf on the SABLE antelope specie 100 year old MYTH that their DNA was different within the sub-species ... Apparantly, apart from the Rooseveld group in the Shimba Hills NP all sable essentially have the same DNA type, the only way to determine their sub-specie classification is to look very carefully at the [ white cheek stripe ] as it varies from being, very distinct to not visible at all on the Giant Angola Sable ..
What I would ask our valued guests is to post their pictures of any Sable they have taken, and [ clearly state ] the [ country and area ] where it was hunted so we can then get all get an appreciation on this theory about the white stripe and how it diminishes as we travel from SA, Zimbabawe, and further north into Zambia etc.
I will start the ball rolling with this sable pic below taken by a client hunting in Zambia, it was on our ranch which is [ Southern Kafue Nationnal Park region ] and close to the Bilili/Nkala GMA area, note the stripe is somewhat diminished as it traverses down the cheek area towards the mouth
ZAMBIA -- Southern Kafue National Park - Private Ranch hunt area
Interesting, Peter
17 June 2004, 14:08
JohnTheGreek
Zimbabwe - Ntabeni Conservancy near Chinhoyi.
17 June 2004, 14:10
SnakeLoverI'll go ahead and post mine here and then delete my other post.
This is a Giant Sable that was shot in RSA. The area I hunted in RSA, in the Vallwater region, is one of only a couple that have pure Giant Sable. The giant also appears to have "redder" back skin hairs on them.
Brad
17 June 2004, 17:22
Balla BallaHi Alf
Thanks for that additional information, it all helps with this interesting project ...
BRAD ??? that sable you took at Vaalwater, Giant Angola, it must certainly NOT be endemic to the region, did they translocate some stock to the region and if so any idea where they were obtained from and how many approximately !!
=============================================
Here is a sable taken at our Game ranch in SA .... the animal is a translocated specie from Zimbabwe ....
South Africa - Private Ranch Limpopo Province ( caveat, this is a Zimbabwe Sable translocated )
Peter
I don't have my sable pictures scanned but both mine and my hunting partners sables look very very close to JohnTheGreek's in the way the white is "distributed" on their face.
We shot our sable in Zimbabwe on Charter Estates in East Moshantaland.
17 June 2004, 20:55
SnakeLoverPeter, my understanding was that the original sable from the herd mine came out of was captured in Angola back several decades ago when one could legally do so and transported to RSA. According to the owner of the ranch, the San Diego Zoo has purchased sable out of this herd and they are on display there as Giant Sable. I am not a scientist, but these things would lead me to believe they are H niger variani.
Brad
17 June 2004, 23:04
SnakeLoverI can only pass along what the owner told me. If you don't believe him/me, there's probably not much I can offer. However, when I read your posts, I must admit they do not clear this matter up for me. Consider:
You stated that
Quote:
the sable has 4 subspecies that are territory defined as well colouration and horn shape.
Mine has the colouration, and given the owners story about capturing specimens in Angola, the territory would seem possible for mine to be.
You also stated Quote:
no genetic differentiation has been shown in either the Sable or the variuos Roan subspecies of subsaharan africa
How could you determine what is a Great and what is not simply by looking at a picture when even the genetic differentiation is impossible to determine?
You further state Quote:
Royal sable differs in facial colouring in that it has no cheeck stripe and eye stripe. The whole face is black. The east african is never jet black and they have a distinct white cheek and brow line. The cheek line connects the muzzle patch to the brow white patch. this applies to the two "typical" subspecies ( Niger niger and Niger Kirkii)
Since you have stated you believe my sable to be niger niger, and since mine has no white cheek and brow line, what are you basing your conclussion on? If they never have a black face, how do you explain this? Because it is not listed in your database?
On this same ranch there are black impala, and he is attempting to add black rhino from his famiilies other ranch. Could it be that he simply has some of the less common species?
I truly don't care whether it is or isn't. However, given the information the owner provided, as well as the information within your own posts on this, you seem to either confirm that my sable is a Giant, or at least, do not rule out the possibilty.
Therefore, it would seem that a couple possibilities exist here:
1) Your research list is incomplete and there are Giant Sable in RSA. Probably not likely, though possible.
2) The sable I shot is truly not a Giant Sable.
I'll let the viewers at home decide.
18 June 2004, 00:33
BwanamichSnakelover,
Were you sold the sable as a Giant Sable and if so were you charged more because of it?
18 June 2004, 01:08
SnakeLoverNo I wasn't told it was a giant sable until afterwards when we were looking at it and taking pictures that the topic even came up, and even then I thought he was talking about the tear drop white going down and thru the black as opposed to the full face. I was just estatic/in awe about having shot this huge sable. To be honest, I didn't know the difference, until I returned to the lodge and looked at the mounts/pictures they had and then I noticed.
My husband's Sable taken near Kwekwe Zimbabwe with his
91 lb. Black Widow Recurve Bow.
18 June 2004, 05:30
BFaucettSlightly off topic, but for anyone interested in learning more about the Giant Sable, let me suggest the following book. Fascinating read.
-Bob F.
# Hardcover: 320 pages
# Publisher: Atlantic Monthly Press; 1st edition (October 1, 2002)
# ISBN: 0871138581
18 June 2004, 06:03
rick3foxesI don't like to post LARGE photos, but since you're looking for detailed face markings, here goes...
June, 2002
Gwayi Valley, Zimbabwe
Rick.
18 June 2004, 06:43
Adam ClementsTwo different sables from two different regions in Tanzania. One is the Common Sable and the other a Roosevelt Sable
Sable taken in Rungwa Western Tanzania with a client of mine that was 44"
Sable taken in the Selous Game Reserve with a client that is 41" and should be in top 5 in record book for Roosevelt sable.
First time to post pictures and do not know if they will come out okay or not.
18 June 2004, 06:56
SlingsterHere's mine again, taken in Zambia on 25 May 2004:
18 June 2004, 08:52
SnakeLoverI believe the last sighting you are talking about was in Angola; I don't recall anyone actually looking for them in RSA. They could have been there all the time.
Quote:
Under our game laws in the RSA whether you "own" the game as a game rancher you do not have the privilege to dispose of your game at will
I don't understand that quote at all. That is exactly what the properties do - they allow hunting, capture or cull excess, disposing of the game at their will. The ranches are managed to a carrying capacity, just as cattle ranches here in the states. With few natural predators and mild climate, they must take care to retain a natural balance. Are you telling me the govt sets the number of animals that can be harvested on the property? I know there are quotas for leopard in the Waterberg Mts, perhaps this is true with all the Big 5 species - was that your intent?
Should you like to have more information, I have posted a hunting report with the outfitters name and web link. You are welcome to book a hunt with them and inquire about hunting sable, perhaps you'll go to the same property.
18 June 2004, 09:10
Outdoor WriterQuote:
Now with this in mind and the CITES listing as critical no conservation authority in the world would allow the shooting of, or the translocation across any border of such an animal dead or alive anywhere in the world.
Under our game laws in the RSA whether you "own" the game as a game rancher you do not have the privilege to dispose of your game at will and trust me if this person did own real Royals there is no way he would be given a permit to offer them for hunting to anyone.
Considering the paragraph before the one you quoted, I THINK what he is saying that regardless of who owns game that is considered threatened or endangered under CITES, i.e. NO hunting allowed, RSA law would prevent hunting such game even on private land.
I have no idea if that is actually true or not, but that's how I interpreted the quote above. Everyone's mileage may differ. -TONY
18 June 2004, 09:18
Bill CInAfrica Safari-Boer Coetzee Owner/PH
Vaalwater, RSA
Webpage inafrica@worldonline.co.za Snakelover - While $10,000 might seem like a lot for a Sable, I bet it would represent quite a steal for a Royal Sable, considering what the "collector crowd" would be willing to pay for it, dead or alive. In any case, it is a GREAT looking trophy, congrat's! And like you said, you shot it because it was BIG, not because of what type it is or is not.
18 June 2004, 13:08
Balla BallaEric
From observing both your picture and mine from Zambia BOTH our sables are showing that white cheek line extremely diminished, as opposed to those taken in SA & Zim's which have a full line all the way down to the mouth region ...
ALF, you may be interested or already know !!!
When I was visting that chap ( cant recall his name ) near Hoedspruit whom has the white Lion project, he claimed to have a small herd of Giant Angola Sable, bugger me, at the time I did not take very closer notice of the cheek stripe as the herd was in the shade under some tree's ... I can try to find out his name if you dont already know of him, you proberbly do, as it is not far from your place, he is a very big boned heavy Afrikaans guy also doing a clean buffalo project ..
Peter
18 June 2004, 13:24
SlingsterQuote:
Eric
From observing both your picture and mine from Zambia BOTH our sables are showing that white cheek line extremely diminished, as opposed to those taken in SA & Zim's which have a full line all the way down to the mouth region ...
Peter
Peter:
Yes, in fact a wild game veterinarian who just happened to be in camp and came along on our hunt pointed out exactly that distinctive feature of Zambian sable while we were examining it. He also measured the circumference of the bull's testicles as an indicator of health; it was quite a bit above average, he said!
18 June 2004, 15:14
Balla BallaAlf and others
If you have some time on your hands here are some quite interesting facts on the subject :::
Introduct Giant Black Sable New Observations Summary Regards, Peter
18 June 2004, 16:42
SnakeLoverALF - So if I am understanding correctly, if you make the animals available to others, then the permit must be issued. Does the same apply if they are not made available to others? Following your example, if you bought the eland and wanted to shoot it yourself, maybe it hurt it's leg in an antbear hole or maybe the genetics aren't what you were looking for, would you still have to get a permit?? If so and you didn't, then are you subject to arrest for poaching??
Bill C - thank you. $10K might be a bargain to some, but I had to have the "super sale price" or I couldn't have afforded it. I paid ~25% less than that when all was said and done.