Rifle rental fee?

30 July 2018, 05:43

LittleJoe

Rifle rental fee?

Why do outfitters charge rifle rental fees? I understand charging for ammo. I do not understand charging a daily fee for rifle use. The rifle is in camp, not being used and IMO just another way to add more $$$$ to the cost of the safari. Am I missing something here?

30 July 2018, 06:13

Blank

We have used camp rifles many times, and were just requested to replace thee ammo. We always leave our extra ammo when we leave also. Never mentioned any charge for rental.

30 July 2018, 06:16

Fjold

Every service and product has a price, it's called business.

If the outfitter wasn't renting the rifle out he wouldn't have it in camp, why invest in extra rifles if they don't provide revenue?

30 July 2018, 06:29

LittleJoe

quote:
Originally posted by Fjold:
Every service and product has a price, it's called business.

If the outfitter wasn't renting the rifle out he wouldn't have it in camp, why invest in extra rifles if they don't provide revenue?

Interesting comment. I don’t agree but I appreciate your comment and opinion. I would call it nickel and diming someone.

When I look for an outfitter I specifically look for the nickel and dime items and almost always I pick someone else but I know I will get nickeled and dimed elsewhere as well.

I think having rifles in camp is just part of business. I have items in my office that are part of business that I do not charge for.

30 July 2018, 06:35

Poyntman

quote:
Originally posted by LittleJoe:
quote:
Originally posted by Fjold:
Every service and product has a price, it's called business.

If the outfitter wasn't renting the rifle out he wouldn't have it in camp, why invest in extra rifles if they don't provide revenue?

Interesting comment. I don’t agree but I appreciate your comment and opinion. I would call it nickel and diming someone.

When I look for an outfitter I specifically look for the nickel and dime items and almost always I pick someone else but I know I will get nickeled and dimed elsewhere as well.

I think having rifles in camp is just part of business. I have items in my office that are part of business that I do not charge for.

I agree...camp rifles are a basic accommodation generally to help clients (already paying a lot of money) either avoid hassles or when the rifle doesn’t show.
Business can chose items like this as a basic intrinsic expense or try and turn them into a “profit center”
I don’t like business that seem everything must be a profit center. I certainly don’t in my business.
What I would agree with is a very minimal charge meant to cover the expense of the asset without profit. Any normal human being would understand this approach

30 July 2018, 06:53

DCS Member

It makes perfect sense. I don’t think I would loan out my personal rifles, as I’m superstitious. Therefore, camp rifles are bought for that specific use. Depending on the trip, that camp rifle hire is well worth not dealing with travel with firearms.

30 July 2018, 07:26

jdollar

I have used a lot of camp rifles to kill a lot of stuff. Most times the rifle use was free with payment for ammo only( and often that was free- how many rounds are you going to shoot to kill an elephant or buffalo?)... Even when it cost for rifle use, it was still cheaper then paying $200+ for meet and greet in Joberg PLUS a rifle permit in Moz, Bots, or Nam....To each his own.

30 July 2018, 07:27

Nevada Wapati

Both outfitters waived the fee the two times I used camp rifles. Of course they only waived the fee at my request.

30 July 2018, 07:35

Saeed

I have no problem paying for the use of a camp rifle at all, as I understand some outfitters have several rifles on offer to choose from.

I am assuming these rifles were bought specifically for clients'use, therefore their cost has to be recovered.

Just like any other investment.

The problem starts when outfitters take this to an extreme, and start charging ridiculous amounts like $50 per day??!!

Charging something like $200 for the hunt is understandable.

30 July 2018, 07:52

fulvio

Firearms are bought and paid for and some can be quite pricey, need periodical licensing renewal which comes with a fee and at times depending on usage (carelessness by the client) may require some maintenance.

So as Saeed says, $200 for the duration of the hunt is not really a bad deal and hardly a case of "knickle & diming" when one considers the hassles having to cart your own from home, through airports, export permits, import permits, overweight, ammo restrictions, meet and greet, and the list is never-ending.

One does not have to be a spendthrift but neither should one be as tight as a crab's a/hole.

30 July 2018, 08:58

shootaway

A 500 dollar rental fee and 20 dollar a round charge is not fun.That and being charged 20/round without knowing beforehand and taking the last day of the hunt for a fun target shoot.
It is less fun too if you are charged for the rounds but you have left ammo with your PH on past hunts.
If I over paid for a hunt I will not like being charged anything.If I feel I got a really good deal then I wouldn't mind paying 200 dollars.
If one feels he got screwed it's because he probably did.

30 July 2018, 09:26

DCS Member

I also can say I liked taking my rifle to Africa. It needed to go, just like I did. Would I do it now? Not for PG, but I’d take a double for the big boys, but I’ve only got a 9.3x74R.

I’ve never taken a gun to Argentina, but that’s because the “camp” rifles and shotguns are great and know them well.

30 July 2018, 09:59

crbutler

A reasonable fee? I would have no issue with it.

However, I get pretty upset when the rental fee will pay for a new rifle within a season...

My view is that if a rental fee is less than the cost to get a permit wherever, fine. More than that, too much.

And the price for ammo that is listed is extraordinarily high in most all cases.

However, to be honest, unless I asked to buy some ammo from the local economy (has happened twice on longer hunts) I have yet to be charged for the .22 or shotgun shells (or the odd shot with the PH's double) over there.

I suppose if I went all Ruark or Hemingway and decided that volume bird shooting was on the menu I would expect to pay for shells- but I guess I am going with decent folks who are reasonable.

30 July 2018, 12:11

Saeed

Has any of you gentlemen seen the prices for ammo in certain countries?

30 July 2018, 13:27

BNagel

Justin, the only part I'd get hot about is undisclosed fees. If I know it's coming I can make a plan (or not go, just as with restaurant's and tipping.) It would take a huge gouge to make me squirm if I'd decided the rigmarole of taking my own weapons was worse. Then, I'd expect ready-to-go, fully functional equipment. Hopefully Id remember to take my own slipover pads/whatever to get the best fit for me with the "camp" rifle.

30 July 2018, 13:47

ijl

I feel that use of a camp rifle is a service; you should expect to pay a reasonable fee for it and if the PH chooses to waive that fee, so much the better.

One thing that hasn't come up, though, is the fact that this might be a necessity in the future. Regulations governing travel with firearms aren't going to lighten up.

In countries like South Africa, Namibia and Zimbabwe there are prolific range facilities, and a hunter can come here, load his ammo, check it on the range, and also hire a firearm, and it may be that one day not so far from now, that will be the go-to solution to troublesome airlines and laws.

30 July 2018, 14:45

Saeed

I got a message that some outfitters charge up to USD50 per day!!

That is day light robbery!

30 July 2018, 15:05

shootaway

Another charge that bugs me is the road transfer charge.If your PH is on his way up to camp and you will be going along why not just pay for his gas? Why pay 1000 for road transfer? Why pay 1000 when you paid 500 on your last hunt?

30 July 2018, 15:21

fairgame

Never hired a rifle but will expect a fee for the ammo used.

If a good rifle is specifically purchased for hire then why not charge a couple of bucks?

30 July 2018, 19:19

fulvio

quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Has any of you gentlemen seen the prices for ammo in certain countries?

You cannot buy .500NE over the counter in TZ and God forbid the cost of having the shop order on your behalf - I normally pay between $15-$18 per round for factory ammo - won't touch hand loads for free.

Last quote I heard for .375 was $7-$9 per round depending on the make.

30 July 2018, 19:35

jorge

I see no redeeming social value in hunting with borrowed firearms. If we ever come to that, I'll quit hunting.

30 July 2018, 19:58

cal pappas

Nickle and diming is an interesting expression.
On a hunt in the 1990s the PH and I stopped for a burger and coke on the way to camp. At the hunt's end I settled the bill for several thousand dollars. "Oh, I forgot to add the $1.80 for the coke and burger to your bill" said the PH!

I always hunt with my own rifles as I'd rather go through the hassle than use another rifle so I've avoided the fees associated. I also don't like surprises. In the 1990s I was charged $500 for an airport pickup fee. It was not in the contract, was never mentioed to me, but I was assured every client paid it. So I did. Upon returning home I contacted other clients. No one paid the fee. It was included in the hunt. The PH just screwed me a bit to get some money for himself. He was young then and now is a veteran and posts here often. Had I know of the fee I would not have tipped him the archery equipment he wanted. I am now in the airport for this year's trip to SA and Zim. I never hunted with him again. He could have had my business for 15+ additional hunts and I've sent others elsewhere.
I agree with an above poster; if I know all in advance I can plan and decide to go or not to.
Cal

_______________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
www.CalPappas.com
www.CalPappas.blogspot.com
1994 Zimbabwe
1997 Zimbabwe
1998 Zimbabwe
1999 Zimbabwe
1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation
2000 Australia
2002 South Africa
2003 South Africa
2003 Zimbabwe
2005 South Africa
2005 Zimbabwe
2006 Tanzania
2006 Zimbabwe--vacation
2007 Zimbabwe--vacation
2008 Zimbabwe
2012 Australia
2013 South Africa
2013 Zimbabwe
2013 Australia
2016 Zimbabwe
2017 Zimbabwe
2018 South Africa
2018 Zimbabwe--vacation
2019 South Africa
2019 Botswana
2019 Zimbabwe vacation
2021 South Africa
2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later)
______________________________

30 July 2018, 20:06

Saeed

quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
Nickle and diming is an interesting expression.
On a hunt in the 1990s the PH and I stopped for a burger and coke on the way to camp. At the hunt's end I settled the bill for several thousand dollars. "Oh, I forgot to add the $1.80 for the coke and burger to your bill" said the PH!

I always hunt with my own rifles as I'd rather go through the hassle than use another rifle so I've avoided the fees associated. I also don't like surprises. In the 1990s I was charged $500 for an airport pickup fee. It was not in the contract, was never mentioed to me, but I was assured every client paid it. So I did. Upon returning home I contacted other clients. No one paid the fee. It was included in the hunt. The PH just screwed me a bit to get some money for himself. He was young then and now is a veteran and posts here often. Had I know of the fee I would not have tipped him the archery equipment he wanted. I am now in the airport for this year's trip to SA and Zim. I never hunted with him again. He could have had my business for 15+ additional hunts and I've sent others elsewhere.
I agree with an above poster; if I know all in advance I can plan and decide to go or not to.
Cal

Hahaha!

I hope you did not leave a tip!

30 July 2018, 20:10

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by jorge:
I see no redeeming social value in hunting with borrowed firearms. If we ever come to that, I'll quit hunting.

Haven't you already?

30 July 2018, 20:24

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
Nickle and diming is an interesting expression.
On a hunt in the 1990s the PH and I stopped for a burger and coke on the way to camp. At the hunt's end I settled the bill for several thousand dollars. "Oh, I forgot to add the $1.80 for the coke and burger to your bill" said the PH!
I always hunt with my own rifles as I'd rather go through the hassle than use another rifle so I've avoided the fees associated. I also don't like surprises. In the 1990s I was charged $500 for an airport pickup fee. It was not in the contract, was never mentioed to me, but I was assured every client paid it. So I did. Upon returning home I contacted other clients. No one paid the fee. It was included in the hunt. The PH just screwed me a bit to get some money for himself. He was young then and now is a veteran and posts here often. Had I know of the fee I would not have tipped him the archery equipment he wanted. I am now in the airport for this year's trip to SA and Zim. I never hunted with him again. He could have had my business for 15+ additional hunts and I've sent others elsewhere.
I agree with an above poster; if I know all in advance I can plan and decide to go or not to.
Cal

Cal,what will you be hunting?

30 July 2018, 21:28

DArcy_Echols_Co

On my 1st trip to Zim my rifles did not make a tarmac transfer before the hunt in London and were then locked in British customs for months and months and months !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Imagine a custom rifle maker in this position. After some bush "gun-smithing" My wife and I managed just fine with an Interarms 375 H&H and a Ruger 77 30-06 but it didn't taste very good. I had to ferret though an old wooden box of left over ammo to come up with what looked like the same type and weight of ammo for each rifle, then we zeroed each on a tree and got to work.

Over the years I have made Legends for PH's to have and use as loaners of for when the client pitches up with a rifle that goes South. All they have ever asked for to my knowledge is a minimal replacement cost for the ammo used on the hunt.

As overseas travel to Africa or the "Stans" begins to become any even bigger hassle, if that's possible, I think we'll see more people requesting to use a rifle already in camp rather than going through the dog and pony show. Imagine hunting Poli sheep with an AK ?????????

30 July 2018, 22:25

MD375

This is a tricky one.

When I had my hunting camp, I had about an equal split of European and American clients.

Europeans would always ‘perform better’ with blaser/sauer rifles with those big 30mm swaros and Zeiss scopes.

Americans, on the other hand were a bit flustered with those rifles and preferred Winchester M70/Ruger rifles with leupold scopes.

So I had to invest a lot in rifles and just simply costed it into my daily rates if you intended to use camp rifles. Rifles and ammo in Africa are bloody expensive!

But at the end of the day we tried to make sure our clients had the best hunts and not lose any opportunities because of unfamiliar rifles.

The plus side though is I get to have new rifles!

30 July 2018, 22:42

Charlie64

.

One of my pet hates - along with camps that charge for booze and skinning.

Recent hunt was charged $ 50/- day for a rifle that in fairness we had asked for to be on hand but never used. I think the last day the appi carried it around. A few hundred bucks was added to the bill.

Others camps provided loaners and never thought of asking for a fee.

I suppose the argument is 'what happens if it gets broken'? Then the fee covers it ? Yeah right!

And I have been charged (once only) for skinning! The other 3 animals on that hunt I skinned / caped myself because I can!

.

30 July 2018, 23:18

bwana cecil

How much are fees on average for rifle usage?
I think I remember something like $15 a day quoted to me once. I brought my own rifle so it wasn't something I was concerned about.

30 July 2018, 23:28

BuffHunter63

Some PHs willingly loan you a rifle at no cost, and some charge a fee.

As long as you know upfront, I don't see an issue.

In some countries, every firearm brought in has to be registered and a fee paid to the government. Outfitters should certainly be able to recoup some of that cost by renting out rifles kept as "loaners".

Along the same lines, some outfitters charge pickup and drop off fees (from and to airport), others don't.

In other words, some outfitters provide more value for your safari bucks than do others.

I try to get all additional charges in writing as well as what is included with the daily rate.

Simplifies headaches and surprises that way.

BH63

30 July 2018, 23:42

Bud Meadows

The first two times I flew to Namibia I flew through Frankfort then Air Namibia to Windhoek. After 2013, Air Namibia decided to charge $100 extra each way for firearms. About the same time, the anti-gunners in Frankfort passed a law that you need a special permit for firearms, even when they’re checked straight through to Windhoek and you never take possession. I decided to screw both Air Namibia and Frankfort and fly British Airways via London. The PH I hunt with (Jan du Plessis of Sebra Hunting Safaris) has excellent quality rifles, all topped by Leupold scopes. He does charge for camp rifle usage, but because I’m a repeat customer (4X) he gives me a break. I no longer check any bags, just a Red Oxx carryon. Frankly the biggest hassle was always CBP and TSA in the USA, not in Africa.

31 July 2018, 00:15

D. Nelson

quote:
Originally posted by Bud Meadows:
Frankly the biggest hassle was always CBP and TSA in the USA, not in Africa.

Definitely!!!

Best regards, D. Nelson

31 July 2018, 00:52

drongo

quote:
Originally posted by fulvio:
quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Has any of you gentlemen seen the prices for ammo in certain countries?

You cannot buy .500NE over the counter in TZ and God forbid the cost of having the shop order on your behalf - I normally pay between $15-$18 per round for factory ammo - won't touch hand loads for free.

Last quote I heard for .375 was $7-$9 per round depending on the make.

When I was in Zim last August I was told the .375 H&H ammo was selling for $5 per round in Harare. I left most of my ammo there for the PH and an Appy that hunted with us.

31 July 2018, 02:01

reddy375

Just take your rifle and stop bitching. Do the bitchers have any idea of what it costs to get a decent rifle in Africa, ammo etc........

My advise take your own.

31 July 2018, 03:12

Fjold

It's interesting on how thing are charged for different outfitters.

I was shopping for hunts in Namibia and one outfit charged $500 for airport pickup and return with a 2.5 hour drive to camp.

The other outfitter offered to pick us up in Windhoek on Easter Sunday and drive us the 6 hours to camp and back for free.

I don't mind what anyone charges as long as I know about it in advance.

31 July 2018, 03:17

joker24002

Can confirm the $50 per day. Last place charged me 45 euro per day as well as 40 euro per "box" of ammo. The rifle was on of the PH's personal guns. And the boxes of ammo were estimates due to the fact they were his own handloads.

31 July 2018, 03:26

cal pappas

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
Nickle and diming is an interesting expression.
On a hunt in the 1990s the PH and I stopped for a burger and coke on the way to camp. At the hunt's end I settled the bill for several thousand dollars. "Oh, I forgot to add the $1.80 for the coke and burger to your bill" said the PH!
I always hunt with my own rifles as I'd rather go through the hassle than use another rifle so I've avoided the fees associated. I also don't like surprises. In the 1990s I was charged $500 for an airport pickup fee. It was not in the contract, was never mentioed to me, but I was assured every client paid it. So I did. Upon returning home I contacted other clients. No one paid the fee. It was included in the hunt. The PH just screwed me a bit to get some money for himself. He was young then and now is a veteran and posts here often. Had I know of the fee I would not have tipped him the archery equipment he wanted. I am now in the airport for this year's trip to SA and Zim. I never hunted with him again. He could have had my business for 15+ additional hunts and I've sent others elsewhere.
I agree with an above poster; if I know all in advance I can plan and decide to go or not to.
Cal

Cal,what will you be hunting?

Hi George. Cape buffalo.
Cal

31 July 2018, 03:28

Bill C

I have never been charged a “rifle usage fee” nor am I likely to book with an outfitter (or booking agent) who treats this as a revenue stream. Like reliable transportation, a quality field rifle/scope is a business requirement today. IMO for many hunters including those who are combining hunting with touring, like myself - it is a necessity.

I realize this is a challenge in remote destinations, but my French outfitter gladly provided a loaner rifle when I hunted LDE in Cameroon years ago. Buzz always made a plan on a light rifle even when Zim was a mess, and a few weeks ago Johann Veldsman had numerous quality rigs to choose from.

Clever outfitters such as Juan Pozzi in Argentina embrace this concept and promote it as an advantage of booking with him. I have and would gladly pay costs for ammo used.

31 July 2018, 03:50

gotogirl3

How many different types of rifles in how many different sizes, etc. do you think an outfitter should keep on hand free of charge? I have a 12 1/4” LOP and shoot left-handed. Not many of those laying around with Swarovski scopes on them!

31 July 2018, 04:16

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
Nickle and diming is an interesting expression.
On a hunt in the 1990s the PH and I stopped for a burger and coke on the way to camp. At the hunt's end I settled the bill for several thousand dollars. "Oh, I forgot to add the $1.80 for the coke and burger to your bill" said the PH!
I always hunt with my own rifles as I'd rather go through the hassle than use another rifle so I've avoided the fees associated. I also don't like surprises. In the 1990s I was charged $500 for an airport pickup fee. It was not in the contract, was never mentioed to me, but I was assured every client paid it. So I did. Upon returning home I contacted other clients. No one paid the fee. It was included in the hunt. The PH just screwed me a bit to get some money for himself. He was young then and now is a veteran and posts here often. Had I know of the fee I would not have tipped him the archery equipment he wanted. I am now in the airport for this year's trip to SA and Zim. I never hunted with him again. He could have had my business for 15+ additional hunts and I've sent others elsewhere.
I agree with an above poster; if I know all in advance I can plan and decide to go or not to.
Cal

Cal,what will you be hunting?

Hi George. Cape buffalo.
Cal

Good luck! I hope that rifle works well...being old like that.