Zimbabwe: Interesting development

12 November 2007, 22:48

NitroX

If you want to read about the civilisations that once existed in the Sahara read Herodotus.

quote:
In 1934 A.D. the geographer Konrad Kilian concluded that the period in which the ox, the giraffe, the ostrich, the elephant, the rhinoceros, and the crocodile were common in the Ahaggar cannot have preceded by much the age in which the camel became the chief means of transportation in the Sahara, which is the period just around the beginning of the Christian era. According to Kilian the process of dessication of the Sahara has been a progressive one and is still continuing today. He reports that trees of the cypress type have disappeared from the Ahaggar quite recently.

Our knowledge of the ancient Sahara was revolutionized by the publication, in 1957, or the results of Henri Lhoteâ€™s investigations of the rock paintings of the central Sahara. These paintings indicate that there was a time when chariots drawn by horses crossed the Sahara from the Mediterranean coast to the river Niger. This indicates that the process of dissication of the Sahara had reached a point in which transportation by river was no longer possible from the Great Chots to the Ahaggar and from there to the Niger, but the land could still support horses. One principle used by Lhote in dating this chariot route is the fact that the horses are portrayed on the rock painting according to style conventions that occur in Mycenaean art. Lhote assumes that the Mycenaeans, like the Greeks who followed them, had colonized Cyrenaica and that from there had advanced into the Sahara area. There can be no doubt that the chariot route reached the Ahaggar from the Mediterranean; Lhote assumes that from there it went south to the Niger at Gao. To the north of the Ahaggar the route went through the present oasis of Ghat. In order to be conservative Lhote marks the route as going directly from Ghat to the Mediterranean at Tripoli; but in so doing he does not prove consistent, since he had indicated that the route must have come into contact with Mycenaean civilization at Cyrenaica. In fact rock paintings of horses are found also in the present oasis of Fezzan, which indicates that the chariot route must have gone from Ghat to the Fezzan and from there to Cyrenaica through the present oasis of Jalo. In substance the chariot route must coincide with the trade route described by Herodotus, a route that Lhote recognizes as going from Cyrenaica to the Ahaggar through the oases of Jalo, the Fezzan, and Ghat. It can be assumed that this chariot route must have existed up to roughly 1000 B.C.

By the time of Herodotus the Sahara had acquired an appearance similar to the present one, since he describes it as a series of desert areas separated by oases. However, in his time the fertile areas that separate the deserts must have been more rich in vegetation than they are today.

12 November 2007, 23:03

rholden

quote:
Originally posted by jorge:
I believe the name of the town was Rosewood and the name of the book regarding theoretical differences amongst different people's is called "The Bell Curve." There was also a recent article by a Nobel Laureate who did extensive work in DNA issues, but I can't think of his name. jorge

Dr. Watson I presume

Did I miss something in my zoology/biology classes. I thought we were all one happy species. All this negroid and caucasoid (I think I just dropped one of those in the toilet) species stuff. The books I studied didn't list any of these "subspecies" of humans.
I thought we were just Homo's (sapiens sapiens that is).

a review of the page at Wikipedia (though not considered a scientific website, I believe it will sufice for this discussion. And it has many references).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

One other issue with the formation of the Saharan desert.

Cut and pasted from Wikipedia

Climate history

The climate of the Sahara has undergone enormous variation between wet and dry over the last few hundred thousand years. [7] During the last ice age, the Sahara was bigger than it is today, extending south beyond its current boundaries.[8] The end of the ice age brought better times to the Sahara, from about 8000 BC to 6000 BC, perhaps due to low pressure areas over the collapsing ice sheets to the north.[9] Once the ice sheets were gone, the northern part of the Sahara dried out. However, not long after the end of the ice sheets, the monsoon which currently brings rain to the Sahara came further north and counteracted the drying trend in the southern Sahara. The monsoon in Africa (and elsewhere) is due to heating during the summer. Air over land becomes warmer and rises, pulling in cool wet air from the ocean. This causes rain. Paradoxically, the Sahara was wetter when it received more solar insolation in the summer. In turn, changes all in solar insolation are caused by changes in the Earth's orbital parameters[10].

By around 2500 BC, the monsoon retreated south to approximately where it is today,[11] leading to the desertification of the Sahara. The Sahara is currently as dry as it was about 13,000 years ago. [7] These conditions are responsible for what has been called the Sahara Pump Theory.

The Sahara is known to have one of the harshest climates in the world. The prevailing north-easterly wind can often cause the sand to form tornadoes. Precipitation, while rare is not unknown and occasionally on the border zones to the north and south, the desert will receive about 25 cm (10 in.) of rain a year. The rainfall happens very rarely, but when it does it is usually torrential when it occurs after long dry periods, which can last for years.

Those damn africans. What the hell were they thinking melting all those glaciers. Bet it was their ancient deodorant and CFC's.

Lastly, weren't the Egyptians african (maybe not sub-saharan), or are they of the superior Egyptiod subspecies?

12 November 2007, 23:27

smarterthanu

Howdy Rholden,

Look in Anthropological text. There are three subspecies of human recognized. There may have been a fourth living in southern african that is now extinct. This latter point has been argued significantly.

Your text on the desert is quite interesting. I appreciate you going to that trouble to find it. However pull out your calculator and you can see the math in ages doesn't add up and contridicts itself. You have to understand that desertification starts an ecosystem that controls its own rainfall, just like rainforests. It is not soley a glacial effect. Maybe these texts were pooled from two other texts and that is the reason for the theoretical contridictions. Also if monsoons were created strictly upon the recipe given here the Sahara would be one of the wettest places on the planet.

13 November 2007, 01:12

rholden

For what its worth here's a link to an interesting article, with a selection below:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/07/990712080500.htm

The CLIMBER-2 models showed that feedbacks within the climate and vegetation systems were the major cause of Saharan desertification, building rapidly upon the effects of the initial orbital changes. The model suggests that land use practices of humans who lived in and cultivated the Sahara, were not significant causes of the desertification. Further investigation is necessary, the researchers say, to determine more precisely the specific effects of latitude and oceanic feedback, as compared with biospheric feedback, on the timing of the event.

By the way I believe Antarctica is by definition the worlds largest desert. I think with some searching we'll find frozen goats.

Hope you all are taking this with humor. Rich.

13 November 2007, 01:46

smarterthanu

More interesting info Mr. Rholden. However not all of Antartica is desert. Some of it is. By the way much of it was not always frozen. One thing was also brought to my attention that I had not even thought of before by another interested party. Seasonal planting with agriculure might not be so spaced out since it was equatorial Africa. This would encourage year round planting without any form of soil rest, and would actually compound desertification even faster than what we saw in the dust bowl era in the US. About the goat issue. Just for shits and giggles pick two neighboring ranches in west Texas. One is a goat ranch and the other a cattle ranch. Compare surface biomass and topsoil depth and I would bet you would see the differences are staggering.

13 November 2007, 04:18

MSsafari

This post is a damn good pissing contest. A good read while I wait for my take out food to be ready. OK, I will jump in with my $0.02.

Communism is the problem with Zimbabwe. Rhodesia/Zimbabwe the result of communist backed government and there will be on change there until the rule of law is restored. An economy can not operate at any level of efficiency with the corrupt rulers of the sub-Saharan countries.

Take all living people in Africa and give them each an equal portion of $$ or land. Give them equal access to education and a fare free enterprise system with the rule of law. Wait 20 years.
At the end of 20 years you will have a few very rich Africans, a fair number of middle class Africans, and a whole bunch of dirt poor Africans. That is human nature. That is why only the top 1% (based on earned income, if you inherited wealth, great , you are a lucky few) of American citizens read this board. We are the only ones who can afford to hunt in Africa.

If you have been to African hunting ( I have one time and am no expert) then you have seen that it is really a mess. Were the countries run much better by the decedents of the white settlers? YES, by our standards. The problem with Africa (and the rest of the world) is the population is exploding.

The white land owners in the Republic of South Africa are loosing their land to squatters at an ever increasing rate.

We live in a world ruled by the lone remaining super-power, The United States of America!!!! The rest of the world is just jealous. I am about to leave my air-conditioned office and get in to my huge diesel truck (alone) and pick up dinner (sushi) to feed my family of 5 spoiled Americans. My financial plan has me hunting in Africa for Elephant in 2011. I love the free enterprise system.

13 November 2007, 05:59

rholden

quote:
Originally posted by MSsafari:
This post is a damn good pissing contest. A good read while I wait for my take out food to be ready. OK, I will jump in with my $0.02.

Communism is the problem with Zimbabwe. Rhodesia/Zimbabwe the result of communist backed government and there will be on change there until the rule of law is restored. An economy can not operate at any level of efficiency with the corrupt rulers of the sub-Saharan countries.

Take all living people in Africa and give them each an equal portion of $$ or land. Give them equal access to education and a fare free enterprise system with the rule of law. Wait 20 years.
At the end of 20 years you will have a few very rich Africans, a fair number of middle class Africans, and a whole bunch of dirt poor Africans. That is human nature. That is why only the top 1% (based on earned income, if you inherited wealth, great , you are a lucky few) of American citizens read this board. We are the only ones who can afford to hunt in Africa.

If you have been to African hunting ( I have one time and am no expert) then you have seen that it is really a mess. Were the countries run much better by the decedents of the white settlers? YES, by our standards. The problem with Africa (and the rest of the world) is the population is exploding.

The white land owners in the Republic of South Africa are loosing their land to squatters at an ever increasing rate.

We live in a world ruled by the lone remaining super-power, The United States of America!!!! The rest of the world is just jealous. I am about to leave my air-conditioned office and get in to my huge diesel truck (alone) and pick up dinner (sushi) to feed my family of 5 spoiled Americans. My financial plan has me hunting in Africa for Elephant in 2011. I love the free enterprise system.

Amen brother, and hit a goat on the way!

26 August 2024, 18:11

dogcat

quote:
Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Aglifter,

I hold a college degree in an agriculture science from the largest agriculutre university in the USA. Where do you think I am pulling these facts from?

Texas A&M?? That explains the length of this thread. Suprised Idahosharpshooter was not on this one as well....

26 August 2024, 21:50

450 Fuller

All of these interesting events and predictions could possibly change for the "super power" mentioned in the Fall.

A former POTUS influencing a current lame duck POTUS,
both of whom have tried to Titanic another former POTUS. OOPS, wrong channel...a thousand pardons...

U. of Alabama-1969
Combat Vietnam veteran

27 August 2024, 00:27

BigBBear

I dont say much but if the US in its fked up wisdom leaves Zimbabwe alone, the Chinese will swoop in hard just like they did in Panama.

27 August 2024, 01:42

Fjold

quote:
Originally posted by dogcat:
quote:
Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Aglifter,

I hold a college degree in an agriculture science from the largest agriculutre university in the USA. Where do you think I am pulling these facts from?

Texas A&M?? That explains the length of this thread. Suprised Idahosharpshooter was not on this one as well....

You went back almost 17 years to make a dig about Aggies?

27 August 2024, 01:55

Nakihunter

I bet there is no hunting season at the moment and people have a lot of time to spare! LOL.

Here in NZ it is so close to spring, and it is raining heavily.

27 August 2024, 03:30

505 gibbs

Smarterthanu will be encouraged by the longevity of his trolling skills…

Bring back Smarterthanu!!

27 August 2024, 05:06

dogcat

quote:
Originally posted by Fjold:
quote:
Originally posted by dogcat:
quote:
Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Aglifter,

I hold a college degree in an agriculture science from the largest agriculutre university in the USA. Where do you think I am pulling these facts from?

Texas A&M?? That explains the length of this thread. Suprised Idahosharpshooter was not on this one as well....

You went back almost 17 years to make a dig about Aggies?

No, I like Aggies, but he is not the best ambassador for A&M.
I read the recent National Geographic about the Sahara and some archeologic finds that confirmed at some point parts of the desert held water and some vegatation.
I remembered this post for some reason and got me wondering if Smarterthanu was right in saying that the Sahara was turned to desert because of man's farming efforts. It turns out that no, man did not cause the Sahara to go dry.
I always that that Smarterthanu had a screw loose somewhere and then I saw he was bragging about his Aggie Ag degree. And he is/was a taxidermist in Houston.

Like Idahosharpshooter, this guy was a bit nutty and reading this thread convinced me....

Again, I have is no issues with Aggies... just with idiots...