Mickey1...Alan...And The Rest Pointing Fingers ---A Question?

11 September 2003, 15:56

DB Bill

Actually a couple......(1)How about a list, not of those you consider morally wrong, but those who are "clean" by your standards and still taking clients...include the reputable booking agents too if you would and then add to that (2) a list of those who have quit taking clients and have refunded money paid...safari companies and booking agents again please and then add what is being done to help these folks get along until things "get better".

Is African-Hunter going to take a position on this? Refuse advertising, etc?

Can we expect a back-lash at SCI? Hard stares? Fist fights? I don't mean to make light of this but this type of internecine warfare never does anyone any good.

12 September 2003, 05:47

Mickey1

quote:
Originally posted by DB Bill:
Actually a couple......(1)How about a list, not of those you consider morally wrong, but those who are "clean" by your standards and still taking clients...include the reputable booking agents too if you would and then add to that (2) a list of those who have quit taking clients and have refunded money paid...safari companies and booking agents again please and then add what is being done to help these folks get along until things "get better".

Is African-Hunter going to take a position on this? Refuse advertising, etc?

Can we expect a back-lash at SCI? Hard stares? Fist fights? I don't mean to make light of this but this type of internecine warfare never does anyone any good.

Bill

In your two questions you sound like Scott Sweet in one of his personnas. So no, I won't, you can do your own homework assignment.

Your second question is interesting only if you, after seeing somebody beaten and robbed, would bend down and steal their shoes. The choice is up to each individual.

I can't speak for 'African Hunter' other to say I find it a very good magazine and not afraid to say if something is wrong. Too bad more magazines are not like this.

As for SCI, well they will prostitude themselves for a dollar nowdays and will undoubtedly take hunts from the people mentioned [Frown]

and that is sad also.

12 September 2003, 07:25

DB Bill

Mickey....I have no idea who Scott Sweet and as to doing my own research, questions like this are part of it.

You made a provocative posting and I am simply following up on it to see if you or anyone can provide a more complete list of the "good guys & bad guys". I'm also a little curious if you see any shades of grey in this issue or are the lines clearly drawn for you?

A couple of other thoughts if you or anyone else might care to respond with either an opinion or specific knowledge.........

With respect to the farms the government has confiscated......

Does anyone think the original owners (or their families) will ever get them back?

And by this I also mean after Mugabe goes regardless of who assumes power? Does anyone think the opposition party will be the champion of the white settlers?

If they do get them back in a few years, will they ever be productive again?

What would be their incentive to rebuild knowing the same thing could happen again?

Do you think that if every PH and safari company refused to conduct hunts on these confiscated lands that it would make any difference to what happens to the game animals or to the chances of the original owners ever being restored?

Same question for the government concessions?

12 September 2003, 13:37

Mike Smith

Bill, Please see my post on the original thread. I have to agree with you that these people are screwed as far as getting their land back. My real issue is with the rape and pillage of what is left. Everyone looses including the Zanu PF types who currently occupy the land. If the quotas are based on money and are not sustainable there will be nothing left soon enough.

12 September 2003, 14:26

Mickey1

quote:
Originally posted by DB Bill:
Mickey....
Do you think that if every PH and safari company refused to conduct hunts on these confiscated lands that it would make any difference to what happens to the game animals or to the chances of the original owners ever being restored?

Bill

I don't know the answer to your question but I do know that the current attitude of 'I better get mine before they are all gone', is not the one I subsribe to.

How about you?

12 September 2003, 16:15

DB Bill

Mickey1.....I don't care for it either but then I've never had to live in a repressive country like Zimbabwe where what we in America consider "Rights" are ignored and citizens, both white and black, are thrown in jail, beaten and worse just because they have something someone else wants...a farm, a lease on a hunting concession, a business or just a car.

I've also never had to make a choice of doing something I normally wouldn't even think about doing .......or not being able to provide for my family. If those being accused of unethical behavior are doing it only to make more money it's one thing but if they are doing it to survive until things get better then I have some understanding......I don't necessarily approve but I won't throw stones.

I've hunted in Zim twice and although it saddens me, I will probably never go back. I think the situation, as you described, has made it clear that there isn't any future for the white population....the farms won't be given back, 3 years, and more to go, of goats on once fertile farmland,etc will basically keep the country in poverty, tourism will weaken even further, and what infrastructure is left will continue to decline...think Somalia.

A bleak outlook but what can happen to change it?

12 September 2003, 16:41

Mickey1

Bill

On that post I agree. I think that you have accurately predicted the future of all of Southern Africa.

Time will tell and I pray we are wrong.

12 September 2003, 16:43

HunterJim

Mickey,

I emailed one of the Tucson SCI convention staff about Zim hunt donations. They refer anything from Zimbabwe (and else where) to a committee for "review and approval". I expect they aren't going to have anything at auction this year.

jim

14 September 2003, 09:19

Boss Kongoni

Mickey1 - I'm curious as to why you refused to offer a list of "good" outfiiter /PH's actively working in Zim. I find the responce of "do your own research" one that implies you have a predetermined agenda.

I'm rather new here and do not know who "Scoot Sweet" is or if you and DB Bill have any history of antagnisim.

I'm doing my own research in preperation to my second trip to to Southern Africa. I have found this site to be a wealth of infomation. However,
the one thing I am sure of, is that hidden agenda abound about hunting in Zimbabwe. People with business in Zim. insist there are no concerns while those with interests in other countrys predect the worst of trouble. I thought your origan post was objective, upon seeing your "figure it out for yourself", responces here I have doupts in my mind about your agenda.

I will be speaking with one of the people you indited on the other thread latter today and intend to question him on your alligations.

I am very interested in your responce. As I am approcing the time when a hunt deposit & comitment should be made. If you feel uncomfortable in addressing my post on this forum please e-mail me.

If I have misjudged your intent, accept my apology in advance.

Thank You,
Frank

14 September 2003, 17:05

Mickey1

Boss

First, DB Bill and I have no issues, neither past nor present that I am aware of.

quote:
By Boss Kongoni
Mickey1 - I'm curious as to why you refused to offer a list of "good" outfitter /PH's actively working in Zim. I find the responce of "do your own research" one that implies you have a predetermined agenda.

I think that my recommending 'Good Outfitters' would demonstrate an agenda. Don't you? I am not connected in any way to the Safari Business in Zim or any other African Country nor any other business interests there.

I have no horse in this race other than the one that says I don't like to see people who are caught by the ass in the Barb Wire screwed by their friends.

I do not know all of the PHs that are honorable and doing the right thing. I am sure that they are in the vast majority, at least I hope so.

I do not know all of the Booking Agents who have refunded money or refused to book hunts on the stolen land. I hope they are numerous.

I put forth a report that was gathered by WWF,
The Commercial Farmers Union and the Zimbabwe Professional Hunters Association. I published their contact information for anyone's use and will repeat it here. I urge everybody to avail themselves of the information available.

Personnaly, I have a problem with giving thousands of dollars, in advance, to people who have proven they have no character or honor. If they will take advantage of their neighbors what will they do to me?

Wherever you decide to go hunting I hope you have a splendid adventure and mucho memories. [Big Grin]

For those wanting more information I suggest you contact the:

WWF Southern Africa Regional Office at wwfsarpo@wwf.org.zw

The Commercial Farmers Union, Matabeleland Branch at Matabele@cfu.co.zw.

PH association of SA
phasa@pixi.co.za +27-12-667-2048

Zim PH Association
pangeti@zct.co.zw

17 September 2003, 05:01

Mickey1

quote:
Originally posted by Boss Kongoni:
Mickey1 -
I will be speaking with one of the people you indited on the other thread latter today and intend to question him on your alligations.
Thank You,
Frank

Frank

What did you find out from your phone call? Would you let us know who you talked to and what was said? I think we all would like more info on Zim.