Are African buffalo more dangerous than Australian water buffalo?

19 December 2013, 07:40

I have never hunted the Australian water buff or banteng, but i have pursued the African Cape and west african savannah buff 5 times. I can confirm the tenacity, strength, and bullet proof nature of the African variety, but what about the Australian buff? No personal experience, but these are essentially feral cattle.They have not been chased by lions etc for thousands of years, there are no natural predators in Australia for them. Does this mean they are less ferocious, tenacious, and dangerous?
Looking for hunters who have had experience with both animals to comment.
Not looking for a fight, but I am asking outfitters and booking agents selling such hunts
NOT to comment. I am interested in the opinions ONLY of the sport hunters who have hunted both species.

19 December 2013, 07:46

Trax

quote:
Originally posted by emron:
I am asking outfitters and booking agents selling such hunts
NOT to comment.

...

good request!
outfitters make good bucks by spinning exaggerated BS-hype to prospective[gullible] recreational buffalo hunters.

To add, well travelled Craig Boddington seems to have a very low opinion of the safari industry operating in far Northern Australia.

Water buffalo, Banteng and scrub bulls in Australia, are decedents from released[or escaped] imported domesticated stock.

19 December 2013, 08:57

Saeed

All animals are dangerous - especially buffalo.

I see reports on the Internet very frequently where individuals have been killed by domestic cows.

I suspect the reasons are similar to those who get hurt in the field.

The majority are caused by not being careful enough - or going out of their way to be stupid.

If one looks at the number of buffalo shot by hunters, the percentage of those he get hurt might not be higher than those who get hurt hunting other dangerous game.

It would be interesting if someone has those figures.

19 December 2013, 09:54

Sean Russell

I don't have other figures but in the USA an average of 20 people a year are killed by domestic cattle.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmWR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5829a2.htm

Are there that many killed in africa by Cape buffalo?

19 December 2013, 09:57

Saeed

quote:
Originally posted by Sean Russell:
I don't have other figures but in the USA an average of 20 people a year are killed by domestic cattle.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmWR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5829a2.htm

Are there that many killed in africa by Cape buffalo?

I hope not.

But, one would expect buffalo hunters are more careful than domestic cow handlers

19 December 2013, 09:59

Trax

The amount of Cape Buffalo charges based on what Saeed and WDM Bell have shot combined [in excess of 1000]
is zilch-Zero!

and the amount of Cape Buffalo charges based on the several thousands more beasts Saeed and WDM Bell encountered while
shooting their amass of 1000+ buff,... are still zilch-Zero!

Two men who have encountered many thousands of buffalo and shot 1000+ buff between them,
with some 700 of them taken with 6.5mm & 7mm bore - without PH back-up..............and no charges!

Yet the way some people market buff hunting,.. you'd think that such cold sober humble reality was not possible.

quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:

The majority are caused by not being careful enough - or going out of their way to be stupid.

So true.

You just have to look at some hunting videos to see how careless and inept some recreational DG hunters are.
No wonder its REGULATION that a PH has to be present.....which then means the PH [or his trackers] have the chance
of being shot by his reckless and inept client.
Such clients can't shoot to save their own or anyone else's life, and actually endanger members of the hunting party
much more than the pursued DG animals do.

Interesting how Harry Selby assisted his young 14yo teenage daughter Gail, to take DG like elephant
with just a single solid projectile from 7x57,...
yet supposedly mature men three times her age with big bores are still out trying to prove their manhood and failing.
From the accounts of PHs like Mark Sullivan, mature age clients with bigbores are hopeless lousy shots.
Funny enough, thats what Selby also discovered during his several decades of guiding big-bore armed recreational hunters onto DG.

19 December 2013, 10:01

Sean Russell

Strangely enough the majority of those killed would be of about the same demographic-

Males over 60---

We can't run fast and we can't hear---

19 December 2013, 10:50

eagle27

emron you are not going to get any real answers from those recreational hunters who have shot both species of buffalo as most hunters have not shot buffalo in any meaningful quantity to get statistics on which is more dangerous. If one has never been charged or had any problems with either species then one cannot answer your question. Even if only experiencing one charge by a Cape buffalo and none by an Asian buffalo that would hardly be good statistics to make a call as to which was more dangerous.

Plenty of people have been charged by domestic cattle and some killed, and more than a few by both species of buffalo both charged and killed so I think any answers to your question are going to be very subjective.

I hunted the Asian variety in Aussie with a professional meat shooter who only shot them from a vehicle and he admitted he would not follow up a wounded buffalo and he did not go in the scrub after them as he had some close shaves in his earlier years and knew of quite a few others who had had the same experiences. My hunting mate and I did go into the scrub after the buffalo (the PH would not follow), up very close to some, but did not have any problems and between us we shot quite a few. Of course my 404 ensured I didn't have any problems and backed up my mate with his 7mm.

19 December 2013, 15:12

leopards valley safaris

I think anything that's wounded and cornered is dangerous.

When you weigh a metric Ton you're a little more dangerous.

Just be careful an carry a big stick.A wildebeest can kill you if it wants to

19 December 2013, 15:53

larryshores

I have done a pretty fair amount of buff hunting in Africa (taken 43). Personally, the worst thing that ever happened was minor at best. I have seen a lot of DVD's and heard a lot of stories over the year. From what I have personally experienced, personally observed on DVD and the stories I have heard, I think most (but certainly not all) of the African incidents are the result of carelessness or flat out stupidity. Some of this carelessness/stupidity has been committed by big name, well respected PH's. I am tempted to name one but I have decided against it.

I have been extremely surprised at the cavalier attitude some PH's have taken around buff. Some will no doubt pay a price one day for that attitude.

Cattle, wild or domestic, can take exception to you being there for no apparent reason at all. One ALWAYS has to be careful around these animals.

Remember the story of the wildebeest that killed a father and son recently. Imagine if that was a buff, they are so much bigger.

I can't speak for the buff in Australia. However, I hope to find out myself next year.

19 December 2013, 16:07

Matt Graham

quote:
Originally posted by emron:
They have not been chased by lions etc for thousands of years, there are no natural predators in Australia for them.

Dingo, wild dog....

What happened to the tails of the buffalo where we hunt; to cause many of them to dissapear?

Humans are predators too...

The 'thousands of years' comment is just speculation too.

19 December 2013, 16:23

Matt Graham

quote:
Originally posted by Trax:

Water buffalo, Banteng and scrub bulls in Australia, are decedents from released[or escaped] imported domesticated stock.

Molecular analysis has demonstrated that Australian banteng are pure-strain of B. javanicus (Bradshaw et al., 2006). Although non-native, these individuals constitute the world’s largest population of banteng and number more than the rest of the native banteng populations combined. Thus, they represent an important demographic and genetic reservoir of this endangered species and they could be use to reinforce declining populations of banteng or to reintroduce this species in its former range.

http://www.wildcattleconservat...ets/BosJavanicus.htm

19 December 2013, 16:33

BenKK

Wild dogs certainly give enough of them a bit of curry when they're young, and then there're the crocodiles. A mate of mine observed a grand old bull going to great, painstaking length to play it extremely safe when getting a drink along a crocodile-infested river.

Anyway, I wouldn't have a clue which is more dangerous, and don't care. They're big game, and they are in my back yard, and I love hunting them. Enough have scared the shit out of me to cause me to carry a big double most of the time.

19 December 2013, 17:01

boliep

quote:
Originally posted by Sean Russell:I don't have other figures but in the USA an average of 20 people a year are killed by domestic cattle. http://www.cdc.gov/mmWR/previe...html/mm5829a2.htmAre there that many killed in africa by Cape buffalo? I hope not.But, one would expect buffalo hunters are more careful than domestic cow handlers

Very few domestic cattle handlers carry a 375 H&H or higher caliber rifle either.

19 December 2013, 19:16

maki

quote:
Originally posted by BenKK:
Anyway, I wouldn't have a clue which is more dangerous, and don't care. They're big game, ... and I love hunting them.

That nailed it. Hunt both, be happy, let the keyboard commandos worry about the rest.

Cold and Grumpy Dean

19 December 2013, 19:16

venda axe

quote:
posted 19 December 2013 09:54Hide Post
I don't have other figures but in the USA an average of 20 people a year are killed by domestic cattle.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmWR

[quote]posted 19 December 2013 09:54Hide Post
I don't have other figures but in the USA an average of 20 people a year are killed by domestic cattle.

Are there that many killed in Africa by cape buffalo? I hope not.

When I hunted in Zim. in 2008, in the 14 days I was there 4 natives were attacked by cape buffalo and 3 of them died. Because it was a native and not a client or PH it didn't get a lot of publicity. Cape Buffalo didn't get their reputation over the years for nothing. I think you are asking for trouble if you under estimate them.

Bob

19 December 2013, 19:19

Saeed

I have seen individuals hurt by warthogs, kudu, wildebeest, bushbuck and zebra.

19 December 2013, 20:58

Idaho Sharpshooter

Australian buffalo are domesticated animals, gone feral.

I saw ten year olds in Vietnam riding them like a pony, and rice paddy farmers using them to pull plows.

Somebody post pictures of a Cape Buffalo pulling a plow for me.

Then, post a list of people crippled or killed by Cape in the last two or three years. Hint: you can pull at least two or three from posts here.

Asian are probably a lot of fun to hunt, but deadly...?

19 December 2013, 21:10

Skyline

Ugh, not this again!!

19 December 2013, 22:01

surestrike

The most dangerous game in the world is the cave bunny of North Britain. As was documented by the brave nights of the round table in Monty Python's excellent historical film on the period. As is shown here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxKIJTb3Hg

Dangerous game or any animal are much like airplanes there are airplanes that are considered dangerous and are more apt to kill you than others and others that are very docile and you really have to work hard at getting killed in one.

I have a very good buddy who was an ex navy pilot who had multiple traps on the carrier flying all kinds of airplanes in all kinds of crappy weather at night ETC ETC stuff that really will kill you in a heart beat due to inattention or plain old simple bad luck.

But he survived all that cutting edge stuff and managed to kill himself and a passenger in his super cub on a clear sunny day a couple of years ago. He was screwing around down low and managed to stall and spin while showing off doing a steep nose up wing over at about 300 feet off the ground.

Scott Crossfield the famous test pilot who rode the X-15 rocket plane into fame got killed in a Cessna 210 while pushing bad weather.

Either one of these guys getting killed in a light general aviation plane is the equivalent of a Krarmonjo Bell getting smoked by a wounded whitetail doe on a golf course fairway. If you get too relaxed and too complacent and overconfident that is when bad things start to happen.

The two most dangerous times in a life during any risky activity are when you first start out and you're scared and not fully in control of the situation and when you become experienced and overly confident.

19 December 2013, 22:59

fairgame

This topic resurfaces every month or so. Dangerous is how close you want to deal with wild animals.

Recently there are quite a few PH's who have been injured from close encounters by those who feel the need for 'dangerous'.

Rather enjoy the hunting and the spoils of Africa.

19 December 2013, 23:20

Bokvel

You don't plough with a Cape Buffalo.

19 December 2013, 23:41

surestrike

quote:
Originally posted by Bokvel:
You don't plough with a Cape Buffalo.

No but you can make them into big loveable pets. of course this has been done before with really bad results..

The closest I've ever come to being swatted by a bovine was a Black Angus cow. She had a hurt calf and my wife and I were doctoring the calf. She decided to kill me and almost got it done. She was one of those cows whom I trusted explicitly as she was a sweet, loveable old girl,until the moment she wasn't!! Lesson learned.

Never get to comfortable around any animals that have the tools to kill you.

20 December 2013, 00:03

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
I have been extremely surprised at the cavalier attitude some PH's have taken around buff. Some will no doubt pay a price one day for that attitude.

Cattle, wild or domestic, can take exception to you being there for no apparent reason at all. One ALWAYS has to be careful around these animals.

.

...................TRUE!

No animal, domestic or wild, charges without provocation! However the animal is the one who decides what constitutes PROVOCATION!

............Walk softly an carry a big stick, preferably with two barrels!

..................................................................

20 December 2013, 00:04

hornet nick

Frankly this type of thread is BS both types buffalo will kill you.
I have seen where a land cruser had been pushed over by a pissed off water buff. The driver was very lucky to get away ok.

20 December 2013, 00:55

WoodHunter

quote:

The two most dangerous times in a life during any risky activity are when you first start out and you're scared and not fully in control of the situation and when you become experienced and overly confident.

Yep. Our horse shoe guy was killed by a front leg kick from a mule. Straight into the chest, ruptured his heart. He was some 55 years old and had been shoeing since he was 18 years old.

20 December 2013, 05:24

376 steyr

My grandfather always told me that a jersey bull, little as they are, was just about the most dangerous animal you could be around. And yet, jersey cows can be the biggest pets. I have had a charolais(former show bull) bull run me around in a small pen because he knew he had me trapped. I only escaped getting hurt by jumping up and grabbing some overhead horizontal pipe that reinforced the pen. Domestic beef cows with baby calves are always to be respected. I was once knocked flat by a 2nd calf young cow with a baby calf. Luckily she was polled(hornless) and there were trees nearby because she pressed the attack.

20 December 2013, 06:25

emron

There is little question that all large animals are unpredictable, and can injure or kill you. My question was, are the undomesticated, highly stressed, wild cattle of Africa more aggressive than feral cattle, who have had a few scores of years to adapt to the wild. Especially when the progenitors have been selectively bred over thousands of years for their tractability and placid natures. (Water buffalo remains were found in the ruins of the Indus Valley civilization 5000 years ago.)
And notwithstanding other’s comments, there is little controversy regarding how long lion and buffalo have co-existed and interacted. And evolutionary biologists do have a good handle on the behavioral response to environmental stress, and it would be disingenuous to discount this.

Of course, we are going to have more injuries from human-domestic cattle interaction, simply because this type of interaction is a thousand (or more) times more common. Doesnt mean domestic cattle are more dangerous, they just happen to be THERE more often than Cape buff.

So, more opinions from those qualified (hunters who have experienced both types of game?)

20 December 2013, 06:53

Matt Graham

quote:
Originally posted by emron:
There is little question that all large animals are unpredictable, and can injure or kill you. My question was, are the undomesticated, highly stressed, wild cattle of Africa more aggressive than feral cattle, who have had a few scores of years to adapt to the wild. Especially when the progenitors have been selectively bred over thousands of years for their tractability and placid natures. (Water buffalo remains were found in the ruins of the Indus Valley civilization 5000 years ago.)

This fails to address a couple of issues... 1. that 'domestic' water buffalo genotypes vary greatly... you cannot make generalisations about them; 2. we do not know what the exact original of the buffalo that were bought to Australia is. & 3. that we do not know if domesticated buffalo varieties were synonymous with some former wild type. We may never know and it probably doesn't matter.

It's the same deal with the banteng - we dont know the exact origins of the animals that were bought to Australia... but (as the study result above shows) - what we do have now does not match the current domestic strains, only the wild type. That certainly matters to the conservation of the banteng.

In ten years time we might find that the buffalo we have in Australia are the survivors of a now lost wild type from some Asian island?

20 December 2013, 07:58

Trax

Its is my understanding that Australia has two types of water buffalo:
- the river variety [western Asia] curled horns
- the swamp variety [eastern Asia] swept-back horns.
most likely imported from Timor, Kisa and other Indonesian islands.

The Dingo[wild dog] may be a predator, but typically only in the first couples yrs of a buffalos life.
Just about all dingo attacks on cattle or water buffalo are toward the calves.

Australian Dingo.

New Guinea highland dog.

although referred to as native, the Dingo is thought to have been introduced to the Australian continent by Indonesian seafarers
a few thousand yrs ago.

20 December 2013, 08:43

Andrew McLaren

quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
I have seen individuals hurt by warthogs, kudu, wildebeest, bushbuck and zebra.

Not only 'hurt' but actually killed! Here a link to an Afrikaans language very recent newspaper report of such an incident. Story of two men killed by black wildebeest. Just use the "Translate" function in top banner to get it very poorly translated into English. Maybe it will be better to cut&paste it into Google translator? Or maybe someone has a link to an English newspaper story about this incident?

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren
Professional Hunter and Hunting Outfitter since 1974.

http://www.mclarensafaris.com The home page to go to for custom planning of ethical and affordable hunting of plains game in South Africa!
Enquire about any South African hunting directly from andrew@mclarensafaris.com

After a few years of participation on forums, I have learned that:

One can cure:

Lack of knowledge – by instruction. Lack of skills – by practice. Lack of experience – by time doing it.

One cannot cure:

Stupidity – nothing helps! Anti hunting sentiments – nothing helps! Put-‘n-Take Outfitters – money rules!

My very long ago ancestors needed and loved to eat meat. Today I still hunt!

20 December 2013, 08:45

Dogleg

I've hunted buffalo in Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Argentina and Australia. 23 altogether, with no plans of slowing down anytime soon.

The only one that ever took a swing at me/us unwounded was one in Moz. There was one in Australia that ran a little loop and was coming right back when the 4th .458 hit him but he lost interest about that time. I think he might have kept coming if he could have.

I like hunting buffalo, and although I fully understand that they are potentially dangerous in practice I believe that the danger factor is over-rated on all of them. Still fun though, and they are big and tough.

20 December 2013, 09:36

Matt Graham

quote:
Originally posted by Trax:
It's is my understanding that Australia has two types of water buffalo:
- the river variety [western Asia] curled horns
....

Only in captive herds for cross-breeding.

quote:
Originally posted by Trax:

The Dingo[wild dog] may be a predator, but typically only in the first couples yrs of a buffalos life.
Just about all dingo attacks on cattle or water buffalo are toward the calves.

Yes, quite right, it IS a predator of the buffalo.

quote:
Originally posted by Trax:

although referred to as native, the Dingo is thought to have been introduced to the Australian continent by Indonesian seafarers
a few thousand yrs ago.

How many thousand years??? Hmmm...

20 December 2013, 12:18

INTREPID SAFARIS

The most dangerous one is the one that gets you! hell I hunt 40 + big game animals every year with my clients and I got nailed by A SITATUNGA! NOT A BUFF.

21 December 2013, 08:28

Trax

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:
Originally posted by Trax:

The Dingo[wild dog] may be a predator, but typically only in the first couples yrs of a buffalos life.
Just about all dingo attacks on cattle or water buffalo are toward the calves.

Yes, quite right, it IS a predator of the buffalo.

As a predatory threat to bovine in Oz, the Dingo pales in comparison to the greater and constant predatory threat from lions toward
both young and adult Cape buffalo.

For the vast majority of time that Dingo have been in Australia there actually were no calf bovine for them to pursue.
Bovine were first introduced in very small numbers[approx.180 yrs ago?],
so it took a good number of yrs before they became a viable pursuit for the greater Dingo population.

Dingo vs Bovine, pales in comparison to the time line [and magnitude] of Lion vs Cape buff.

In regards to the Dingo making its way to Australia, some believe it may have been by sea...others believe by land,

Dingo genetics seem to stem from southern China. ...

21 December 2013, 08:49

Sean Russell

quote:
some believe it may have been by sea or by land.

As the alternatives would be flying or transport by aliens I venture to guess that yes-it was by sea or land----and since Australia hasn't been connected by land to anything in much more than "several thousand years" I tend to doubt they walked-----

21 December 2013, 09:07

Trax

quote:
Originally posted by Sean Russell:
I tend to doubt they walked----

People who know more on the subject than you, seem to believe they walked.

"Clearly, the land route is much more feasible for dogs than the sea route," says Dr Alan Wilton, a geneticist from the University of NSW, Sydney,
and one of the researchers involved in the study.

According to a study by an international research team, genetic data shows the dingo may have originated in southern China,
travelling through mainland southeast Asia and Indonesia to reach its destination anywhere between 4600 and 18,300 years ago.

21 December 2013, 09:14

Saeed

According to Professor JH Alardyce, of Timbuktu University, Faculty of Species Diversity:

"...Every living thing in Australia was imported there.

From animals to humans.

Bloody hell, all one has to do is look at the map of the world and this will clearly be visible.

Long before Her Majesty decided to send the undesirables there, nature has been doing it.

In fact, what we call Australian buffalo now used to live in Asia, when Asia was part of Africa.

The cape buffalo ran them off to Australia.

The dingo is one of the most intelligent species of dogs.

They went to Australia to avoid being eaten by the Chinese!..."

21 December 2013, 09:28

Trax

studies seem to show the swamp water buffalo may have originated in China,...the river water buffalo from India.

African buff are not closely related to water buff.

21 December 2013, 10:33

Sean Russell

quote:
Originally posted by Trax:
quote:
Originally posted by Sean Russell:
I tend to doubt they walked----

People who know more on the subject than you, seem to believe they walked.

"Clearly, the land route is much more feasible for dogs than the sea route," says Dr Alan Wilton, a geneticist from the University of NSW, Sydney,
and one of the researchers involved in the study.

According to a study by an international research team, genetic data shows the dingo may have originated in southern China,
travelling through mainland southeast Asia and Indonesia to reach its destination anywhere between 4600 and 18,300 years ago.

http://australianmuseum.net.au...Timeline-Pre-Contact

13 000 years ago
Land bridges between mainland Australia and Tasmania are flooded. Tasmanian Aboriginal people become isolated for the next 12 000 - 13 000 years.

10 000 years ago
Present day Australian climate established.

8 000 years ago
The Torres Strait Islands are formed when the land bridge between Australia and New Guinea is flooded by rising seas.

6 000 years ago
The 'shape' of Australia's coastline is defined by present sea level.

Settlement of Pacific Islands.

5 000 years ago
Dingo arrives in Australia.

- See more at: http://australianmuseum.net.au...sthash.xqZWcdB8.dpuf

some do some don't--seems you don't know all you think you do