is this really hunting...

23 September 2011, 21:51

I am interested to get the opinion of anyone and everyone. In Hwange national park, Zim. There are now hunts being offered. Granted this is ok'd by parks because it is their ration animal quota that has always been shot. In the past this quota has been shot by up and coming Zimbabwean hunters and guides to get the necessary experience to qualify and become a Zim Pro. Now Zim parks have seen that they are missing a trick and are now selling the animals to hunting operators ( all south african i believe as i have been watching and noting all the number plates and vehicles that i see who i know to be hunting. I know them as they have the padded rifle rest on the roof so that you do not even need to get out the car to shoot...a personal disgust of mine.)So the point i am making is that these "ph's" are now shooting animals in areas where i walk as a Zim Pro Guide. I have had the misfortune of walking onto skinned elephant three times now while on photographic walking safaris expecting there to be a kill made by lions etc.. The last two i have walked onto are within 200m of water. And water that has been pumped basically since hwange started. How hard it must be as a "ph" to wait at a waterhole in hwange in the dry season then follow a bull that has drunk there for decades for two hundred metres into the bush then brain him... I am not wanting too start a debate about the merits of hunting in conservation..i am fully aware and belive that hunting IF DONE CORRECTLY is a brilliant form of conservation, however is this really hunting?

23 September 2011, 23:16

martin pieters

Where has this been advertised, where were the elephant shot, dates, areas and ivory sizes?

23 September 2011, 23:38

impala#03

Is that really legal? Hasn't this been discussed here before?

23 September 2011, 23:48

Scriptus

AFRICA- short cut paradise

24 September 2011, 00:56

craig boddington

One of the Zim PHs needs to chime in...in Zimbabwe, my understanding is there is a set radius from water within which it is illegal to shoot, at least on Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife estate. I can't recall what it is, but it's a whole lot more than 200 meters. It may depend on "PAC" versus trophy, so we need an educated opinion, but shooting elephants near water is definitely unethical, and possibly illegal.

24 September 2011, 03:23

David Hulme

No it is not hunting and it is an absolute shame.

24 September 2011, 03:28

Bwana Nderobo

IMHO, it is not hunting, and should be scorned by any true sportsman.

24 September 2011, 04:00

Todd Williams

I would say that is killing, not hunting. Certainly not for me anyway.

24 September 2011, 04:02

Crazyhorseconsulting

While it is not TRUE hunting, is there anything anyone can do to have the program stopped?

Or will this just turn into another case of people bad mouthing those that take advantage of the program???

24 September 2011, 19:03

zimguide

I do not know where it was advertised, or the exact dates that the elephant were shot or the ivory sizes either as i was not present. I have my information from some of the rangers that were present on the hunts and finding the carcasses myself and then asking the pump attendants etc in the area. I am not sure if national parks allow the ivory to be taken as they are still ration animals. I do know however that it is defintely going on. The various hunters stay at sinamatella as i have seen hunting vehicles there quite often lately. As far as areas. A bull was shot about a month ago very close the baobab pan after being followed from drinking ( as i was told by the ranger present) Another was shot a little before that on the Lukosi loop. Another shot within the last 2-3 weeks at Tshompani pan, the pump attendants tell me they also shot a buffalo there recently.I have also found another bull shot but not skinned on the lukosi loop last week. There was tyre tracks into the area and boot prints. I have not been back there to see if the animal has been recovered

25 September 2011, 07:28

Blacktailer

Sounds more like shooting than hunting. Why can't these folks just buy a set of replica tusks and prop them in the corner and tell us all how the hundred pounder charged?

25 September 2011, 22:33

MacD37

"SUBSISTANCE HUNTING" is not sport hunting, but that doesn't mean it is not beneficial to wildlife management, and certainly to the locals who get the much needed food supply! How it is done is the most productive way, and if that is shooting from a truck, and/or at night, makes the targets more selective. No appologies necessary.

I don’t think it is anything I’d pay to participate in, however!

From what I’m reading in this case is the meat seems to be being wasted, and that is not sport hunting, or subsistence hunting, IMO!

25 September 2011, 23:53

African Hunters Quest

quote:
I do not know

Maybe you should ask the right people rather than sensationalising on an internet forum.
Get the facts from the ark in question and the hunters you are accusing before plastering the next "special report" across the net.

Whether it is going on or not what you have done is irresponsible, so please clean up your mess and post some facts other than what you have gleaned from the pump jockeys.

26 September 2011, 01:17

Jeff Wemmer

I'll need the FACTS before I can get too wound up either way.

JW

26 September 2011, 01:48

talentrec

There was a huge old bull in Sinamatella when I was there in May. There were trees down all over the camp. I hope that old boy doesn't get killed in what for him has been "safe" territory his whole life.

26 September 2011, 05:27

jdollar

quote:
Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:
quote:
I do not know

Maybe you should ask the right people rather than sensationalising on an internet forum.
Get the facts from the ark in question and the hunters you are accusing before plastering the next "special report" across the net.

Whether it is going on or not what you have done is irresponsible, so please clean up your mess and post some facts other than what you have gleaned from the pump jockeys.

what he posted is what he was told by the game rangers who were present ON THE HUNTS at the time of the kill plus the carcasses he found within 200 meters of a borehole. what is wrong with that? must you be present DURING the actual hunt in order to bring to light such bullshit, legal or otherwise? if a person of authority states he found 50 elephant tusks in someone's backyard, must i keep quiet since i didn't make the discovery myself? and by the way, what is the "ark in question"? sounds like PHASA need to get involved as well as the Zim authorities. maybe Dawie Groenwald is back in business. oh, that's right- i didn't actually see the several dozen rhino carcasses found on his farm- minus their horns. excuse me for being irresponsible.

26 September 2011, 15:21

zimpatriot

what everyone must understand is that zimguide and others, including myself zimpatriot, cannot reveal their identities due to consequences too horrific to comtemplate. loss of operators licence, jail, loss of life...it is just too risky for any of us to reveal anything using our real names at this time. forgive us we do the best we can for now. we know what is going on on the ground and it is not pretty. parks are changing laws as they go to fleece this country, and so are operators, both foreign and local. many south africans are involved. hunting with paying clients in national parks is totally wrong and it is because of this free for all that zim is nosediving. unscrupulous operators and parks are hiking quotas through the roof and certain areas are being destroyed at this moment. there are a few guys still trying to do things properly but they are now few and far between. many clients are hunting with illegal operators on illegally acquired land, or land 'leased' by individuals on the sanctions list. many of these areas have no quota, simple as that. parks are shooting for the chinese in national parks, all that zimguide says about wankie is true, the same is happening in mana and nyakasanga. apparently free for all in nyakasanga right now. be very careful who you hunt with, who they are involved with. it is all being recorded by guys on the ground who care. for example, it is known fact that a senior guy at cabellas has just hunted knowingly on illegally acquired land. the shit is going to hit the fan one day for sure.
it shames me to have to post this anonymously, because i do post here sometimes under my real name and am a hunter known to many of you. i have no choice at this stage for i have a family and live here. i know it is hard to believe the word of an anonymous guy but please heed my words.
saeed, i know you will be able to find out who i am and trust you will keep my identity secret. if you don't want me to make posts like this, simply delete this profile. many thanks, zimpatriot

26 September 2011, 16:26

African Hunters Quest

Zim Guide & Patriot

The route you need to follow if there are SA operators involved is to contact the SA authorities with proof of what you have seen. Be very clear about what you have heard and what you have seen.
Before you go ahead though you need to make sure that you are not perhaps reporting on a legal hunt or a PAC kill etc. If you do so and the people at play are actually scum bags you are going to give them a get out of jail free card.

I can understand your feers but you need to go about this in the right way and make sure you really are looking at what you think you are.

People you need to contact with what you have are as follows.

PHASA, ask to speak to the chairman only and give him the info you have with names of operators and vehicle registrations.

Conservation Authority for the province in which they suspected people operate.

The green scorpions info@greenscorpions.com
http://emi.deat.gov.za/login/i...urnUrl=%2findex.aspp
0800 205 005

That is going to get more done than this thread will.

JDollar, you are a poes and are not contributing to this thread by trying to get into a fight with me. You are well know for your antics and they are not appreciated. If you want to talk to me then do so via PM or on another thread, short of that this thread is here for the purpose of discussion with regards to the "suspected" illegal activities and ensuring that if indeed that is what they are that it will be dealt with the correct way.
We are not here for your entertainment or for you to trump someone in some keyboard duel. Zim Guide and Zim Patriot have neither taken offense to what I wrote as they have realized that it is the correct way to go about it.
Now please, lets get back to doing what is necessary.
Kind regards
HQ

27 September 2011, 05:16

jdollar

so if someone i know tells me about illegal activity i should keep my mouth shut because i didn't personally witness it? if i find an elephant carcass 200 meters from a borehole i should say nothing? nope, sorry, ain't going to happen.

27 September 2011, 10:29

Ganyana

There is also the need for exact facts. Ti Date, who, or vehicle registration. The association follows up where it can. The US embassy is VERY good at refusing visa's to attend SCI for both Zim and SA PH's that are PROVEN to their satisfation to be hunting illegally. They have done so often in the past- including baring Cabella's Zim partner from traveling to the USA...but hard facts, not Johnny Rodreguies - 'it is well known that'.

27 September 2011, 13:35

zimguide

quote:
Originally posted by zimpatriot:
what everyone must understand is that zimguide and others, including myself zimpatriot, cannot reveal their identities due to consequences too horrific to comtemplate. loss of operators licence, jail, loss of life...it is just too risky for any of us to reveal anything using our real names at this time. forgive us we do the best we can for now. we know what is going on on the ground and it is not pretty. parks are changing laws as they go to fleece this country, and so are operators, both foreign and local. many south africans are involved. hunting with paying clients in national parks is totally wrong and it is because of this free for all that zim is nosediving. unscrupulous operators and parks are hiking quotas through the roof and certain areas are being destroyed at this moment. there are a few guys still trying to do things properly but they are now few and far between. many clients are hunting with illegal operators on illegally acquired land, or land 'leased' by individuals on the sanctions list. many of these areas have no quota, simple as that. parks are shooting for the chinese in national parks, all that zimguide says about wankie is true, the same is happening in mana and nyakasanga. apparently free for all in nyakasanga right now. be very careful who you hunt with, who they are involved with. it is all being recorded by guys on the ground who care. for example, it is known fact that a senior guy at cabellas has just hunted knowingly on illegally acquired land. the shit is going to hit the fan one day for sure.
it shames me to have to post this anonymously, because i do post here sometimes under my real name and am a hunter known to many of you. i have no choice at this stage for i have a family and live here. i know it is hard to believe the word of an anonymous guy but please heed my words.
saeed, i know you will be able to find out who i am and trust you will keep my identity secret. if you don't want me to make posts like this, simply delete this profile. many thanks, zimpatriot

Unfortunately Zimpatriot speaks the truth here. I do have registration numbers of three of the SA regsitered vehicles that have been hunting in the park and also have a photo of one of the "PH's". Sadly if the Zim Parks are allowing this then it is obvioulsy deamed legal or i would love to get them hunters banned from entering the US.

27 September 2011, 13:42

zimguide

quote:
Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:
quote:
I do not know

Maybe you should ask the right people rather than sensationalising on an internet forum.
Get the facts from the ark in question and the hunters you are accusing before plastering the next "special report" across the net.

Whether it is going on or not what you have done is irresponsible, so please clean up your mess and post some facts other than what you have gleaned from the pump jockeys.

Africanhuntersquest...unfortuantely SOME south african hunters are creating a VERY bad taste in the Zimbabwean hunting/guiding community. However for you to say i am making a mess with my "special report" is nonsense. I am talking to the rangers who are on the hunts. In two cases two of them are old school and have been in parks since before Zimbabwe! They too are angry at what is going on hence why they are telling me this info.They too are scared to speak openly about this as sadly as Zimpatriot put we cannot just speak out openly or we risk loosing our licenses or worse. I have found the carcasses myself less than two hundred metres from the water.