legality question on AR pistols

26 February 2019, 23:02

If one bought an AR pistol such as this:

https://shop.fortresstactical....er-p/rp9sfs-450m.htm

Is it illegal to change the pistol brace stock to a collapsible rifle stock or even just a standard rifle stock?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.

27 February 2019, 03:27

Dulltool17

Lane- I believe putting a rifle stock on it makes it an SBR, subject to NFA. Doesn't matter whether collapsible or not.

Someone with real credentials will, I'm sure, clarify the matter, but the entire premise of the pistol centers on the fact that it doesn't have a shoulder stock, therefore is a pistol, not a short-barreled rifle.

27 February 2019, 20:10

ledvm

Thank you kindly sir. Now after your guidance in research...I see you are likely correct.

What an epitome of a stupid law.

28 February 2019, 23:27

Use Enough Gun

There's a lot of stupid gun laws out there! Sad that we are the brunt of the same!

01 March 2019, 04:15

Clan_Colla

Lane, it is confusing - more than just a bit,
since there are now "folding"arm braces" and "collapsible arm braces"

Although, they look and function like a stock (to most common sense brains) they have a maximum length of pull of 13.5 " or less.

ANY true "STOCK" placed on the "pistol" would constitute the manufacturing an SBR

while a "BRACE" which will accomplish largely the same thing the "pistol" remains a "pistol"

This little hidden gem of info (the 13.5" rule)
was disclosed in a bench trial where BATFE was prosecuting a man for an "over-length" folding "brace"

the "rule" however was not publicly published, rather it was an "agreement" between BATFE and "BRACE" manufacturers
(he won the case , by the way, still cost him mucho dinero)

since these "braces" arrived on the market-
BATFE has issued 3 types of letters on "use"

FIRST -it was OK to shoulder a "brace"

SECOND -it was "redesigning" the firearm and not OK to shoulder a "brace"

THIRD - it is OK but subject to review

IMO--Basically do not get filmed with it at your shoulder
--although many of the young "high-speed" tactical "gurus" have videos posted doing just that-

01 March 2019, 04:51

cgbach

I see a lot of folks running them as pistol caliber carbines at plate matches with the brace held against their shoulder. I would not be comfortable doing this at this time, but that is just me. I do know that I would really really like to get my hands on one of the little Sig sbr 9mms. Those things are amazing.
C.G.B.

02 March 2019, 02:31

p dog shooter

quote:
I do know that I would really really like to get my hands on one of the little Sig sbr 9mms. Those things are amazing.

The first time I saw one of their "pistols"at SHOT I threw it up to my shoulder.

The Sig rep said no you can't do that. I gave him a dumb look saying why not.

He then told me I just looked like well who's going to listen to that and proceeded to shoulder it again.

He just smiled.

03 March 2019, 08:05

NormanConquest

Several years ago at a gun show I bought a new Ar upper w. 8" bbl.thinking that this will be great for home defense etc.Then the reality kicked in;if you shoot somebody with this,you WILL go to jail + worse.Thus the CZ 75 w/ night sights sets in my night stand.

03 March 2019, 16:48

p dog shooter

quote:
Several years ago at a gun show I bought a new Ar upper w. 8" bbl.thinking that this will be great for home defense etc.Then the reality kicked in;if you shoot somebody with this,you WILL go to jail + worse.

Only if you put it on a rifle lower.

03 March 2019, 19:00

ledvm

quote:
Originally posted by Clan_Colla:
Lane, it is confusing - more than just a bit,
since there are now "folding"arm braces" and "collapsible arm braces"

Although, they look and function like a stock (to most common sense brains) they have a maximum length of pull of 13.5 " or less.

ANY true "STOCK" placed on the "pistol" would constitute the manufacturing an SBR

while a "BRACE" which will accomplish largely the same thing the "pistol" remains a "pistol"

This little hidden gem of info (the 13.5" rule)
was disclosed in a bench trial where BATFE was prosecuting a man for an "over-length" folding "brace"

the "rule" however was not publicly published, rather it was an "agreement" between BATFE and "BRACE" manufacturers
(he won the case , by the way, still cost him mucho dinero)

since these "braces" arrived on the market-
BATFE has issued 3 types of letters on "use"

FIRST -it was OK to shoulder a "brace"

SECOND -it was "redesigning" the firearm and not OK to shoulder a "brace"

THIRD - it is OK but subject to review

IMO--Basically do not get filmed with it at your shoulder
--although many of the young "high-speed" tactical "gurus" have videos posted doing just that-

Thus...an adjustable “brace” is legal...as long as the “length of pull” is 13.5” or less??? Is that a true inference from your opinion?

03 March 2019, 19:01

ledvm

quote:
Originally posted by p dog shooter:
quote:
Several years ago at a gun show I bought a new Ar upper w. 8" bbl.thinking that this will be great for home defense etc.Then the reality kicked in;if you shoot somebody with this,you WILL go to jail + worse.

Only if you put it on a rifle lower.

What is the definition of a rifle lower?

03 March 2019, 19:55

p dog shooter

One that was made for as a rifle first.

So if you buy a brand new rifle you can not but a short barrel on that receiver.

Now if you buy a receiver and call it a pistol.

You can do most anything with it.

Then if you finish a 80 presenter I would call it a pistol.

And yes the law is all screwed up and that is why we are where we are.

03 March 2019, 20:27

Beretta682E

quote:
Originally posted by p dog shooter:
One that was made for as a rifle first.

So if you buy a brand new rifle you can not but a short barrel on that receiver.

Now if you buy a receiver and call it a pistol.

You can do most anything with it.

Then if you finish a 80 presenter I would call it a pistol.

And yes the law is all screwed up and that is why we are where we are.

Not if it has a buttstock. If it has a brace or a blade you will be fine.

The law is screwed up but one
I would not want to run afoul of especially if the gun was ever used in self defense.

Mike

04 March 2019, 00:06

p dog shooter

quote:
Not if it has a buttstock. If it has a brace or a blade you will be fine.

That falls under the almost any thing.

04 March 2019, 02:38

ledvm

What sets an adjustable brace such as a SBA3 apart from an adjustable buttstock?

04 March 2019, 04:12

Beretta682E

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
What sets an adjustable brace such as a SBA3 apart from an adjustable buttstock?

ATF rules.

It it is a buttstock it will be a Sbr. On a blade if the blade has a covering that made it a buttsock it will be a sbr.

Mike

04 March 2019, 04:16

p dog shooter

Some have said length a figure of 13.5 inches have been thrown around.

Or a arm brace seems to be two pieces and not solid like a butt plate.

It is just one of those strange things about our fire arms law.

Design and innovation and the willingness to push the legal envelope.

Has change the whole field and legalize.

04 March 2019, 04:49

ledvm

There has to be specs that allow this...

https://www.opticsplanet.com/s...abilizing-brace.html

...to be a brace.

While this...

https://www.opticsplanet.com/m...e-carbine-stock.html

...is a rifle stock.

The both mount on a standard mil-spec multi-position carbine buffer tube.

04 March 2019, 04:59

Beretta682E

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
There has to be specs that allow this...

https://www.opticsplanet.com/s...abilizing-brace.html

...to be a brace.

While this...

https://www.opticsplanet.com/m...e-carbine-stock.html

...is a rifle stock.

The both mount on a standard mil-spec multi-position carbine buffer tube.

Your brace you can open it up and wrap around your hand like some b movie action star,

The blade assist the pistol but the hole annthe end of the blade cannot be covered.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S91JETXFn9o

It’s all fun and games till 2021 when a democratic president can send atf agents to every class iii holder and check their firearms that are governed by current law.

Mike

04 March 2019, 05:36

ledvm

Can anyone point me to where I can read the actual rules?

04 March 2019, 06:57

p dog shooter

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
Can anyone point me to where I can read the actual rules?

No

Wish there were.

So do a lot of other people.

Kind of a wing and pray now that BATFE does not change their minds.

04 March 2019, 08:20

86thecat

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
What sets an adjustable brace such as a SBA3 apart from an adjustable buttstock?

An approval letter from ATF.

Braces must have been designed as a brace not as a buttstock. ATF approval letter to manufacturer stating acceptance is the only way to be sure a brace is legal (at least for now).
Somehow SBA3 was approved with a carbine type buffer tube, not quite sure how that went thru.
Another issue can be a forward vertical grip as a pistol under a minimum length with one installed is a NFA (National Firearms Act) firearm.

If I was more of a tin foil hat kind of guy, the bumpstock and pistol brace rulings allowed by ATF interpretation would seem like an avenue to eventually reevaluate semi autos and outlaw them.

Might want to google "AR Pistols - AR15.com" and do some research on their AR Pistol forum.

04 March 2019, 09:42

John A.

quote:
If I was more of a tin foil hat kind of guy, the bumpstock and pistol brace rulings allowed by ATF interpretation would seem like an avenue to eventually reevaluate semi autos and outlaw them.

Given the government as it is ~~ Fast and Furious, agents dead due to weapons illegally ferried to the Cartels on instructions of O'Ba ma, ATF and "Justice," Eric Holder criminally responsible but no prosecution in sight, Hillary grossly and deliberately violates every security protocol leading to constant, ongoing leaks of Top Secret SCI information (not to mention rampant influence-peddling and international-level corruption), but the way is cleared to send her to the White House, etc...

I'd say there's no tin foil hat required. You are merely looking 2-3 moves ahead on the chess board, and wisely so!

Just because we have a vastly superior technical understanding of these issues than the average "anti" doesn't mean their leaders will not twist and exploit anything they can in order to get what they want.

John

04 March 2019, 17:43

ledvm

Ah...so when you buy an SBA3...you get a copy of a letter?

04 March 2019, 21:18

p dog shooter

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
Ah...so when you buy an SBA3...you get a copy of a letter?

Sure an a Easter bunny to go along with it.

04 March 2019, 22:00

Beretta682E

quote:
Originally posted by p dog shooter:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
Ah...so when you buy an SBA3...you get a copy of a letter?

Sure an a Easter bunny to go along with it.

Unless you already own suppressors or other class 3 stuff I would stay as far away from sbr as possible.

They are just worth the legal hassle.

Mike

04 March 2019, 23:07

86thecat

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
Ah...so when you buy an SBA3...you get a copy of a letter?

Manufacturer should have an approval letter from ATF.
SBA3, Shockwave braces etc are commonly known to have approval. If not sure, contact manufacturer or seller to be sure there is an approval letter. Buyer doesn't need a copy.

ATF has approved multiple pistol braces and ruled that shouldering a brace does not repurpose the pistol as an SBR. That could possibly change but the more pistol braces in use, the less chance .GOV will be able to outlaw them. SBR's need paperwork to travel interstate and have other restrictions, braces are allowed loaded in your vehicle as CCW in most states so braces do have worthwhile advantages.

Looking at velocity, flash signature, sound pressure level and maneuverability a 12 inch 5.56 AR pistol with brace may be the best available option for close to medium work. Market prices are great now and hopefully if there is a legal change we will be grandfathered in, so go for it.

04 March 2019, 23:26

ledvm

quote:
Originally posted by 86thecat:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
Ah...so when you buy an SBA3...you get a copy of a letter?

Manufacturer should have an approval letter from ATF.
SBA3, Shockwave braces etc are commonly known to have approval. If not sure, contact manufacturer or seller to be sure there is an approval letter. Buyer doesn't need a copy.

ATF has approved multiple pistol braces and ruled that shouldering a brace does not repurpose the pistol as an SBR. That could possibly change but the more pistol braces in use, the less chance .GOV will be able to outlaw them. SBR's need paperwork to travel interstate and have other restrictions, braces are allowed loaded in your vehicle as CCW in most states so braces do have worthwhile advantages.

Looking at velocity, flash signature, sound pressure level and maneuverability a 12 inch 5.56 AR pistol with brace may be the best available option for close to medium work. Market prices are great now and hopefully if there is a legal change we will be grandfathered in, so go for it.

Thank you kindly for the detailed response.

05 March 2019, 19:13

p dog shooter

quote:
That could possibly change but the more pistol braces in use, the less chance .GOV will be able to outlaw them.

Just like they did with "bump stocks"

05 March 2019, 21:19

Clan_Colla

CASE ON THE 13.5"

https://www.thetruthaboutguns....l-rifle-prosecution/

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
ARCHIVES OF BRACE LETTERS

https://www.sb-tactical.com/re...category/atf-letter/

+++++++++++++++++++
THIRD LETTER
https://www.sigsauer.com/wp-co...er-march-21-2017.pdf

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
OTHER NEWS-- some pistols considered AOWs

https://www.thefirearmblog.com...24/oal-brace-folded/

05 March 2019, 22:03

DuggaBoye

take a peek at this

https://foldar.com

06 March 2019, 01:07

p dog shooter

Where is some interesting reading that might help you understand the regulatory process.

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/...rt-of-appeals-in-dc/

06 March 2019, 21:24

86thecat

quote:
Originally posted by p dog shooter:

Just like they did with "bump stocks"

Fat Lady hasn't sung yet.
Nolo Contendre aka Stephen Stamboulieh over on AR15.com is fighting the good legal fight and making progress on the bump stock ban.

09 March 2019, 19:19

Mike Mitchell

Lane, my SIG AR with the SB-15 arm brace came with a copy of the initial ATF letter. Prior to the 2nd letter that basically said if you shoulder the weapon, it becomes an SBR.

Replacing the arm brace with any traditional rifle stock constitutes a felony as I understand it.

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
Ah...so when you buy an SBA3...you get a copy of a letter?