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Hey Guys, recently returned from a hunting trip in Australia with Paul Truccolo, giving the 500 MDM and the 458 B&M a workout on buffalo! I already did a report in the Australia hunting forum so those interested in that please go up to that report, found below;

http://forums.accuratereloadin...931035711#3931035711

This one since I consider the Big Bore Forum home for me, I wanted to do a report on the rifles, cartridges, bullets and how everything performed "IN THE FIELD", on buffalo, a true arena for our big bore cartridges and rifles. I love to hunt of course, but I must have a mission to make it interesting to me. This hunt was a mission to test different bullets in .500 caliber in the 500 MDM at the velocity it can run these as compared to the same bullets in the 50 B&M. In addition the last few years I have spent most of my field tests with the 50 B&M and some with the 416 B&M. But mostly testing the 50 B&M in the field, since I had done so much with 458 Winchester and 458 Lott, the 458 B&M had taken a back seat on getting any field experience and this was the first true outing for the 458 B&M, even though I started working with it in 2005.

So below are the two rifles that did the work in Australia.


On this trip I was more interested in how the 500 MDM was going to perform. I had 4 different bullets I was testing--our 470 gr SSK HP was the "primary" load at 2425 fps. Backed up with the 510 gr SSK Solid at a reduced velocity of 2200 fps to get POI close to the 470 HP load, which the 510 Solid was .5 inches higher POI than the 470 HP at 50 yds--perfect match. The other bullets were the 450 gr JDJ with the cuts in the meplat, and a 426 gr HP version. All same POI at 50, or very close.

Now I had used all the bullets in the 50 B&M for everything from Kudu, cape buffalo and even elephant with great success in the 50! But the 500 MDM is able to add 250-300 fps to the same bullet. I have done extensive tests here with terminal ballistics with these bullets, in the 500 MDM so I already knew how the bullet was going to perform, how it was going to penetrate, expand, and transfer energy to the target. What I wanted to observe mostly was "buffalo reaction" to taking that energy transfer! This is observation, and very difficult to measure, put a number to, or record!

I also want to take a second and explain some issues I have been struggling with for a couple of years, and have posted some concerning that here as some of you will recall. This concerns the copper HP bullets I am using in the various 500 caliber rifles I am working with. We are not annealing or heat treating these bullets. They are 6 bladed copper/alloy bullets and I have 3 versions, a 380 gr bullet for the 50 B&M Super Short---426 and 470 gr HP for the 50 B&M and the 500 MDM. Now when one runs these bullets at certain higher velocity the petals start to break off during penetration, and in the end leaving a solid slug that continues to penetrate, in a straight line! Drop below this point in velocity, the petals hang on and make a wicked 6 bladed bullet. While penetration is more than adequate when the petals hang on, penetration increases dramatically when they break off! I struggled with this concept that if the petals break off and the slug continues to penetrate that this could be an excellent option, since I am destroying tissue that I would not if the petals stay intact, and that possible energy transfer to target would increase dramatically! Through the test work I conducted I came to believe this to be true, but to prove it I needed to put bullet to flesh!

Below you see an example of prior tests with the 470 HP at 50 B&M velocity of around 2200 fps--bullet on the left is a test bullet--bullet on the right recovered from an oryx.


Below you will see the same bullet tested at the higher velocity in the 500 MDM.


Now it was time to test the concept on buffalo. I shot 13 buffalo with the 500 MDM, so it was a pretty good test and I could see reactions of the animals clearly. I really can't say right now just how many I hit first with the 470 HP and first with the 450 JDJ, but the plus numbers for sure going to the 470 HP. It was beyond impressive. Both bullets did very good at the higher velocities of the 500 MDM, but the 470 HP was extremely impressive! All but one of the 13 animals shot dropped in their tracks and never took a step. One very big bodied bull, in his prime, dropped at the first shot, but got up again. He made it a short distance before I put a solid up from the rear, stopped, turned broadside to me, hit him again and he dropped on the spot! By this time I was running to him and reloading on the way, he got up again, ran across my front from right to left, I hit him again and he went down for the count. 12 of the others never got up again from the first shot, but that didn't keep me from shooting them again anyway!

This was the first old bull dropped by the 500 MDM. He was within 25 yds when he took the first 470 HP. Hit thru the shoulders you could see the energy transfer on impact, he dropped on his nose, shoulder broken, bullet exited. He struggled to get up but could not, a couple of finishers ended the affair. We were all pretty impressed with this, including Paul which has seen a lot of buffalo shot! I have shot a few buffalo in my day, I was impressed!


Below is the big heavy body bull that I had a short running gun battle with. All in all the bull never went further than about 25 yds regardless!


A few of the 470 HPs recovered. Two that shed petals were less than 50 yds impact, the one that retained the petals was at or around 75 yd impact, where velocities had dropped to the point the petals would retain. This buffalo never went anywhere either, petals or not! Most bullets passed completely through.



This is the 450 gr JDJ with cuts in the meplat designed to move fluid away from the bullet, therefore inducing a type of hydrostatic shock, and energy transfer to target. It works. I had shot buffalo with this bullet in the 50 B&M at 2150 fps or so. While it worked great, it just did not knock the crap out of them, and all the reactions I could see were that it was at least equal to buffalo reactions that I had seen with 458 Lott. Which is damn good and nothing to sneeze at that comparison, as the 50 B&M is a very small and fine handling rifle, several inches shorter and a couple or more pounds lighter than my 458 Lotts! So I was still very satisfied with the performance. With the 500 MDM I was convinced that the higher velocity of 2400 fps or so would induce more hydrostatic shock and energy transfer to target, and I was correct on that point, it did! Bullet impact was impressive, bullets passed thru, causing trauma and destruction. Still impacts and reactions while very good, it was not as nearly as impressive as the hits with the 470 HP. I would like to try this bullet on some zebra and thinner skinned animals in the future!


The 510 SSK Solid did just what it's job was, hit hard up front because of the flat meplat, drive deep and straight. I did this on all counts, no bullets recovered.


I had some 426 SSK HPs along at 2500 fps however I really never did any first shots with them, but used a few for finishing shots, none recovered.

All in all for me the 500 MDM was a grand success in all counts. There were zero issues with the rifle, no malfunctions of any sort, rifle was easy to handle and fast to shoot! One afternoon we were slipping around a bilabong (swampy area) and we ran across a small herd of around 8-10 animals. Herd Reduction. With the 500 MDM I was able to drop two on the spot, hit the lead buffalo as it broke to my left, confusion set in, reloaded, hit a buffalo behind the lead buffalo, back to the lead and hit it again, then another stopped at the lead buffalo and hit it. Moving forward and including finishers I had shot 9 rounds and had 5 buffalo on the ground before they could run further than 25-30 yards from the start. Want to talk about big fun it was! I had just burned nearly 900 grs of powder down the bore, the barrel could not even be touched it was so hot! God Almighty, what a party that was! I can't even venture to say how long this lasted or took, but it was not very long and action was very quick!

Now I am sure their are many things out there that might equal my 500 MDM rifles and cartridges, no doubt. But for me it is about the finest combination of factors a fellow can put in his hands for this sort of work! No scope the rifle only comes in at 8.5 lbs with the heavy myrtle stock, 21 inch barrel reduces overall length and makes it faster and easier to handle and work with, the cartridge and bullets combined, along with the .500 diameter makes it one hell of a buffalo smashing machine! It did just this on all counts!

I will move on now to the 458 B&M and how it performed. Of course this is one of my little rifles, Winchester M70 WSM action with an 18 inch barrel. Short, handy, light, fast and the cartridge equal in every way to 458 Winchester, only in a tiny package.

I was only able to work with two bullets, primarily. First shots were with a 450 Swift A Frame at 2210 fps backed by a 450 Barnes FN solid at 2175 fps. I actually slowed the 450 Barnes down to bring POI to the same point as the 450 Swift. I also had a 500 Woodleigh Soft that I took 3 rds of, it was just a tiny bit low of POI at 50. I really wanted to try some 350 gr Barnes X bullets, even though I know they are light for caliber these test out very well in the penetration department, however POI was too far off the mark to use without great difficulty.

This proved to be an excellent combination for my 458 B&M, as I already knew from earlier experiences with 458 Winchester. I ended up shooting 7 buffalo with the 458 B&M with excellent results, none going further than 10-15 yds, and I only recall one bull, the last old grandaddy bull, going that far. Some went 5-8 yds and piled up, some dropped on the spot at the shot. I took two really good old bulls with the 458 B&M. While not as dramatic as the 500 MDM, it certainly did not come up short in any way what so ever. It also was very easy to carry, fast and handy!

Below is a series of photos I think you will get a kick out of, with the 458 B&M and an nice old bull I was very pleased with! 450 Swift A up front, followed by 450 Barnes Solids!








Of course the end result was the last photo with myself and Paul Truccolo, my host and now new mate!

A few bullets in 458 Caliber recovered.



It was the 9th day out when we came across this grandaddy old bull and I could not resist, and with one look at my wife and her famous words to me "Shoot Him", and that was all the encourage needed, and I went to work!




Personally I took this as a great stopping point for a wonderful hunt, a tremendously successful test mission for the 500 MDM and the 458 B&M, and the Winchester Rifles that call them home!

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Great photos, excellent trophies. Don't have any video shot at the Buffalo?

Oscar.


I am Spanish

My forum:www.armaslargasdecaza.com
 
Posts: 1084 | Location: Spain (Madrid) | Registered: 11 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Congratulations! thumbAwsome report BOOM
 
Posts: 3608 | Location: USA | Registered: 08 September 2004Reply With Quote
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Just great! thumb



Offhand Open Sight Rifle Shooter
 
Posts: 10317 | Location: Montreal | Registered: 07 November 2002Reply With Quote
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Great photos and a fantastic report, Michael! Good work! beer



"Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP

If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming.

Semper Fidelis

"Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time"
 
Posts: 13326 | Location: Virginia | Registered: 10 July 2003Reply With Quote
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Bravo!
clap


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* Founder, D.R.S.S., Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. Founder , "Bubba" "...all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." Thomas Jefferson
 
Posts: 23926 | Location: Where Mexico is invading and leftists abound. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Thanks guys! Ovny--no video. I hate video!

No questions?

I must have done a thorough job then!

Thanks again, it was big fun to say the least!

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Question...
Are you going to swage down 505 softs to .500"
What velocities do you think you can get with the 600 grain 505 softs and the 500 MDM?
Is the 500 MDM headspacing on the extractor or the mini shoulder?
Are there any accuracy issues when headspacing on the extractor?
Makes me think of the 425 WR bullets on the 06 case... headspace on the extractor so you can crimp.


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* Founder, D.R.S.S., Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. Founder , "Bubba" "...all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." Thomas Jefferson
 
Posts: 23926 | Location: Where Mexico is invading and leftists abound. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Michael,

Very nice report, great photos and awesome results!


Jim coffee
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne
 
Posts: 4883 | Location: Baking in the Summer Desert | Registered: 15 September 2007Reply With Quote
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OK OK OK--I know, I brought it on myself,it's my fault! NEVER EVER EVER ASK if there are questions around Boomy! killpc Just beat myself in the head please!!!!!

Answers:
Are you going to swage down 505 softs to .500" (NO!)
What velocities do you think you can get with the 600 grain 505 softs and the 500 MDM?
(Don't know-Don't care and don't need!)

Is the 500 MDM headspacing on the extractor or the mini shoulder?
)Don't know-Don't care--It works 110% animal OK OK-you know me, but I like the extractor to solve any and all issues, ghost shoulder probably helps a bit.)

Are there any accuracy issues when headspacing on the extractor?
(None that I am aware of) Typical accuracy below!


Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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LOL you asked Big Grin
No accuracy issues it seems. thumb
If it is headspaced off the extractor you would not need to be so exacting in the case length and could crimp on a no shoulder no belt case.
A 425-06 would be a fun project on a M70.
Love the pic with the blood splattered on the bull. What are you going to do with the trophies?


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* Founder, D.R.S.S., Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. Founder , "Bubba" "...all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." Thomas Jefferson
 
Posts: 23926 | Location: Where Mexico is invading and leftists abound. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Hey Michael,

Quick question for the group to ponder...

I’m thinking the 485gr SST FN would be a better companion to the 470gr SST HP than the 510gr FN in the .500 MDM.

My thinking is that the closer bullet weights…470gr HP & 485gr FN vis-à-vis 470gr HP & 510gr FN…would allow the 470gr HP to be loaded to a higher velocity while maintaining same point of aim so that close quarters impact would allow it to lose its petals for both maximum impact damage and maximum penetration.

I would also think as the SST bullets are of solid copper construction that the penetration performance of the 485gr at a higher velocity would closely match the penetration of the 510gr at a slightly slower velocity.

Am I on the right track in this thinking?


Jim coffee
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne
 
Posts: 4883 | Location: Baking in the Summer Desert | Registered: 15 September 2007Reply With Quote
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Boomy, please kick me in the teeth next time I open my mouth!

Well you see we have had this discussion with the 50 B&M--straight case, extractor holds cartridge. However I have never crimped or needed to crimp the 50 B&M anyway.

When that bull went down there was a fountain of blood squirting straight up 8-10 inches high, solid stream for a long time! It made a mess and we didn't have enough water for that.

Have three bulls for shoulder mounts and 1 of them for skull and horns.

By the way I am changing the 500 MDM a bit. I ordered a new reamer already, moving the ghost shoulder forward leaving only a .350 neck. No purpose other than I will like the way it looks better, and it removes the bullet bulge that I never liked. Just makes a better looking cartridge all the way around! There will be no change in ballistics to speak of.

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
No accuracy issues it seems.

Boomy
Now that you are satisfied with the accuracy I am removing the target photo, this thread already has enough photos on it!

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Jim

Well you are not off base with that thinking concerning the 485 and 470. At 2425 or so fps I think I am getting near max with the 470 HP anyway, so there won't be much of an increase in velocity, unless I find another powder besides H-322 that works as well. The 485 version does penetrate straight and well, and i have used it on cape buffalo in the 50 B&M with excellent results. If the 470 HP impacts anywhere above 2200 fps the petals shear off anyway. Which means inside 50-60 yds or so. At 25 yds it is devastating, inducing a tremendous amount of energy transfer and shock. I can run the 510 up to around 2350 fps in the 500 MDM, but in test work there is zero difference in penetration of the solids from 2100 fps to 2300 fps. At 2300 fps there is more damage up front.

Running neck and neck with this thread there is another concerning something about the 460 W based 510s--500 A2 and such. In this thread MrLexma is talking about running 570 TSXs at 2500 fps or so, petals shearing off and how devastating that is on buffalo. Once again confirming thru experience how this energy is transferred to the target.

The jest of the thought Jim basically either bullet would be fine, I just prefer the 510 over the 485 in the 500 MDM for buffalo. For elephant I want the same version of the bullet in the 550 gr. In the 50 B&M where I can run the 485 up to 2150 + then it is a perfect match with the 470 HP.

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Good to see Paul still operating. He's a top bloke
and you got some top trophies.

I liked your write up. I have tested a heap of bullets on buffalo,
they are a superb test medium.

Thanks, that was very informative.
 
Posts: 3191 | Location: Victoria, Australia | Registered: 01 March 2007Reply With Quote
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Hey 500N

Yes Paul is first class all the way. It's been awhile since hunting or shooting with someone who cares more about all the right things, than just after a market share! I plan on getting some new bullets together so I can go back and test some more!

Thanks a bunch! Buffalo are indeed the ultimate test medium! I agree 100%

Glad you liked the report and glad you got something out of it! I know I did!

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Thanks Michael...much clearer now; personal experience also cannot be ignored. Smiler


Jim coffee
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne
 
Posts: 4883 | Location: Baking in the Summer Desert | Registered: 15 September 2007Reply With Quote
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Michael:
Great report. In your final analysis, do you ultimately favor the expanding copper bullet at a velocity which will induce petal loss, an expanding copper bullet at a velocity which will prevent petal loss, or a bonded soft(Swift or Woodleigh) that forms that big ball of expanded lead? Thanks.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Whitworth:
Great photos and a fantastic report, Michael! Good work! beer


+1 thumb

Keith


IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!!
------------------------------------
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Posts: 4553 | Location: Walker Co.,Texas | Registered: 05 September 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeD:
Michael:
Great report. In your final analysis, do you ultimately favor the expanding copper bullet at a velocity which will induce petal loss, an expanding copper bullet at a velocity which will prevent petal loss, or a bonded soft(Swift or Woodleigh) that forms that big ball of expanded lead? Thanks.



From my experience, Woodleighs, even though they sometimes "look" like a "big ball of expanded lead", the petals that are they actually do a surprising amount of damage.

For me, I would go with keeping the petals
as they cause a huge amount of damage to tissue but more importantly, make a huge, ragged wound channel that more often than not, STAYS OPEN and if hit in the right place, BLEEDS Profusely,
leaving a good trail.

That's just my HO from shooting over 100+ buffalo with a whole range of calibres from 500 Nitro / 505 Gibbs and down to 7mm.

But everyone has a different view !!!
 
Posts: 3191 | Location: Victoria, Australia | Registered: 01 March 2007Reply With Quote
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MikeD

That is a hard question. In the 500 MDM I will go with the expanding copper at a velocity that will induce petal loss. I have seen the trauma and energy transfer up close. While it works with .500 caliber I suspect it will with most big bores, but I also feel diameter has lot's to do with this! Also I would never trade penetration for anything, and we must bear in mind these are NOT CONVENTIONAL bullets-and therefore we cannot think conventional. Penetration increases with petal loss, which is a major plus! Petals are not sheared on impact, they are shed from 2-10 inches of penetration.

Really hard to answer your question, because the bonded softs also transfers energy in 458 +. I think I must investigate some expanding coppers in 458 caliber too. I have worked with some brass bullets that do the same.

Not much of an answer I think!

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Mike

We were both typing at the same time.

What do you think of my comments ?
 
Posts: 3191 | Location: Victoria, Australia | Registered: 01 March 2007Reply With Quote
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Michael,
Jolly good show. thumb

I second your preference for higher velocity secondary petal-missiles plus primary penetrators.
Much more deadly and reliable for DG.

Better than a solid, more deadly, but still risks a shoot-through in a herd.

If you shoot them at long range, they retain their petals with lesser impact velocity, and give the shallow penetration
on the small critters that need less killin'.

The buzzsaw effect of expanded petals attached to spinning bullet is BS.

A starburst of copper (or brass) petals
is like a death star burst, I reckon, dead reckon. Wink
 
Posts: 21930 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Pioneering design by S&H, the .395-caliber/310-grain VeloHex,
and my sketch of a mechanism for its observed deadliness: shock and penetration

 
Posts: 21930 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
Pioneering design by S&H, the .395-caliber/310-grain VeloHex,
and my sketch of a mechanism for its observed deadliness: shock and penetration





If this is te case would there be any advantage in making the secondary projectiles longer?

What I mean is if you made the hollow point cavity deeper the secondary projectiles that blow off should have more weight be longer and penetrate more.

Now that would make some damage

Has this been tested ?

regards
S&F
 
Posts: 462 | Location: Victoria, Australia | Registered: 26 September 2007Reply With Quote
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S&F:
I think the breakdown should be 80% primary missile and 20% secondary missile to retain penetration and yet provide some bloody awful initial wound channel.

Bigger caliber bullet needed.

All deer and elk killed with the above bullet have died instantly as if struck by lightning. thumb
I hope to get some bigger bore ones some day.

Australia for buffalo is on my itinerary too.
A .395 Tatanka and a 500 Mbogo with VeloHexploders is on the wish list.


BTW, your avatar:

What does "A-Style" mean?
Is that doggy-style copulation?
I hope that is a heterosexual couple practicing normal sex in your avatar. Wink
 
Posts: 21930 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
S&F:
Australia for buffalo is on my itinerary too.
A .395 Tatanka and a 500 Mbogo with VeloHexploders is on the wish list.


BTW, your avatar:

What does "A-Style" mean?
Is that doggy-style copulation?
I hope that is a heterosexual couple practicing normal sex in your avatar. Wink


RIP if you do make it to Australia and your near the souther parts, Con and I would be happy meet up and say G'Day

The Avatar.......Well I saw it and thought it was pretty CHEECKY so I adopted it..

A-Style is an Italian clothing manufactured I believe

Actually if you ever watch GP Motorbikes, Valentino Rossi from Italy is sponsored by them.

And yes I too hope that it is a NORMAL DOGGY COPULATION Wink

regards
S&F
 
Posts: 462 | Location: Victoria, Australia | Registered: 26 September 2007Reply With Quote
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S&F,
I am sure I will have to hit civilization in Oz too. That would even interest my wife!

Highjack off:

OK, I'll settle for 75% primary and 25% secondary bullet burst, as Michael has proven that, Macifej will take note:

 
Posts: 21930 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Michael
Congrats on the hunt. Now I really want to build one of these.
If I want to build the 500 what action should I look out for.
Cheers
Ian
 
Posts: 423 | Location: Natal - South Africa | Registered: 23 September 2006Reply With Quote
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Wow you guys have been at it last night! Not me, I have to get my beauty sleep!

Now let's see, 500N as for my opinion on petals or no petals. It's the best of both worlds! If they stay on I believe they act more like a conventional bullet, yes penetration is reduced because of the frontal area, but with these bullets penetration is still more than adequate regardless. I have shot several lesser animals with the 470 HP in the 50 B&M where the petals do not break off and these animals were hit very hard with and still taking energy transfer. So to me it's a no loose situation either way. I will say that if the animals are hit hard where the petals do break the results are dramatic to say the least.

While this is a great situation either way, it still leaves us with some really good bullets to work with, Swift, Woodleigh, Barnes at the top of my list for other calibers. I will continue to use the entire arsenal provided depending on critter! But in my .500 calibers I think I have found what I need for them. When I get some time I think I will explore getting some of the HPs made in 458 and 416 and see what I can do with them! Might be a fun project for the lesser calibers, might increase effectiveness in the meantime.

RIP
Thanks buddy, your opinion on these matters is always important to me! It took me a long time to get my mind wrapped around the concept, as you may well recall, but I have seen the light!

Excellent diagram too by the way! We have done some of the bullets in brass and got exactly the same results, both on animal tissue and my test medium I use. I like the copper alloy bullets because they give me a little more weight than brass. Now on this I am not sure it makes any difference but the copper petals tend to hang on longer, breaking off anywhere from 2-10 or 12 inches of penetration. Not all at once either, they tend to break off 1-2 up front and continue to break off during penetration. The remaining slug does not seem to tumble and appears stable continuing to penetrate dead straight. On average about 25% deeper than if the petals stay intact. I think either way it hits them like bombs!

All bovine are large, heavy built, tanks! They are very hard to impress with mere bullets. These buffalo in Australia are just as tough as any I have ever shot, and that one big prime bull bigger than any cape I have ever shot. Believe me they were impressed with the 500 MDM which exceeded my expectations! They were more impressed with the 470 HP when the petals break off at closer range, they were impressed, but somewhat less with the 450 JDJ.

S&F I agree with RIP 80% primary and 20% petals. Currently my copper 470 HP is at 75% and 25% roughly. I don't want that reduced more because I want that extra 25% or so of penetration when the petals shear.

I have not shot thinner skinned game yet with the 500 MDM and the HPs. I have a 380 and 426 gr version of the same bullet, which would work great for lesser critters in the .500s.

Now for consideration for other thin skinned dangerous game, bear/lion, this same 470 HP in the 500 MDM would explode these critters I think! I shot a griz last year with the 470 HP in the 50 B&M, complete pass thru, but the bear did not go 8-10 steps and fell over. Don't really know if the petals sheared or not, penetration at the point of exit was better than 3 ft, it was at an angle. Either way, dead bear.

Thanks Ian! Right now a 500 MDM if it's a Winchester (really is there anything else?) then it must be one of the M70s that were made in 300 RUM. Jim (Capoward) and I have been kicking around a 2.65 inch case that will fit in standard actions, but it is not based on the RUM case. Right now it looks good, the only issues is magazine retention, which looks good right now. This would open up the number of rifles that could be built upon. I have several Win M70s waiting in the wings to be converted to something useful instead of rat rifles like 300 winchester and such.

Thanks All!

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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I found a couple more bullet pics I wanted to add.

Paul was carrying a 458 Lott and had some factory ammo from Hornady loaded with the 500 gr DGX bullets. I asked him to shoot a couple into some animal tissue to see if we could get a couple recovered, they did very well.


Of course I hate to report the rifle was a CZ and would not feed or function from the left side!

Another comparison with a couple of 450 gr 458 Swift A's and one of the 470 HPs that did not blow the petals in .500 caliber.


This is not a Woodleigh RN soft, but one of their pointy 500 gr bullets in 458 caliber.


FYI

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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I was recently told that doing test work, in particular terminal ballistic tests was a waste of time. I beg to differ greatly concerning that as I have been testing for many years and have enough field experience to be able to correlate those tests, and to confirm the reliability of such tests, here is yet another good example. Of bullets used in the field and bullets tested in the lab. Some differences in impact velocity is noted.




http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Very nice pictures Michael…

If you hear any arguments, then I recommend you mark the bottoms of the buffalo shot and test medium bullets, dry some blood on your test medium bullets, and then post them all in one picture and see if anyone can pick out which bullets were used against live buffalo and which were used in your test medium.

I doubt you’ll find any winners.


Jim coffee
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne
 
Posts: 4883 | Location: Baking in the Summer Desert | Registered: 15 September 2007Reply With Quote
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+1 on that.

Sorta makes arguments about testing v. real hunting moot.

All this information is making me lust after a big bore B&M.

I think I see a 458 in my future......


______________________
Guns are like parachutes. If you need one and don't have one, you'll likely never need one again Author Unknown, But obviously brilliant.

If you are in trouble anywhere in the world, an airplane can fly over and drop flowers, but a helicopter can land and save your life. - Igor Sikorski, 1947
 
Posts: 661 | Location: Northern Minnesota | Registered: 18 September 2004Reply With Quote
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Capoward & Chopper

I have hundreds of examples that can be compared and the story is the same--either blood or paper residue, only way to tell the difference! But there are those that will argue anyway, of very little consequence however.


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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MM,
I reviewed this .. and I fialed to tell you how impressed I am with the rounds and with the hunting. You, sir, are both blessed and lucky

all the best
jeffe


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
Order AR/AccRel Brass
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 33479 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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I have a couple of things of special note that some may need to know. Many of the rifle stocks you see are done by Accurate Innovations in Rapid City South Dakota! I have been working with these guys for several years and have never been disappointed with the work on the stocks, and the durability and strength. Much of the strength is due to the aluminum chassis that is installed in the stock that the action sits in. These stocks are absolutely essential for the 500 MDM rifles.

Many of you know that on the first 500 MDM I used the Winchester Super Grade stock that was originally part of the rifle. The first 18 rounds busted the stock from the action moving back during recoil. We attempted to repair the stock. Once repaired it took exactly 4 rounds before the repairs were undone. At that time I called Jeff Roller at Accurate Innovations and we got rolling on the myrtle stock you now see gun #1 in. Roughly 400 plus rounds later of load development, test work and now the trip to Australia there are zero issues with the rifle breaking stocks! Not going to happen with the AI stock at all. The aluminum chassis keeps the action in place solid, end of story.

Both rifles, the 500 MDM and the 458 B&M used on this trip sported AI stocks and I could not have asked for anything better, and more dependable. My second 500 MDM (the stainless one) is fitted with an AI Claro walnut and although that rifle has not been fired much more than a 100 or so rounds, I have no concerns about an issue with cracked stocks and problems of that sort.

Currently Jeff is working on a Turkish stock for my favorite 50 B&M, which had a really super nice super grade stock that unfortunately cracked around the forend. Once fitted with the AI stock that will not be a problem anymore, just hate like hell losing that original stock! I should have put it on something else.

Just yesterday I spoke with Jeff and I am getting ready to build 3 more 500 MDM rifles, so we are getting 3 new AI stocks to fit them in. For the 500 MDM it is required no ifs ands or buts about it. I am also getting Jeff to do another B&M stock for a new 50 B&M I am doing.

Prices are very reasonable for what you get, so go over and take a look. Now remember too that these guys are not a big operation that has 10-20 sales people waiting around to answer the phone, so give them a little time to get back to you, they are all in the back of the shop building and getting stocks ready, and most of the time don't answer the phone, leave a message, they will catch up with you. And don't start overloading them, hell I have stocks that have to be done and don't want you guys getting in my way!!!! Wink

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
MM,
I reviewed this .. and I fialed to tell you how impressed I am with the rounds and with the hunting. You, sir, are both blessed and lucky

all the best
jeffe


Jeffe

I can't think of a higher or more impressive compliment that could possibly bestow a fellow like me, than one in which you have been so gracious as to place! From a fellow of your stature I am humbled and appreciative to say the least, thank you very much!

Blessed and Lucky! Very true, and on top of it all having a blast at it!

Thanks Again

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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aww, shucks .. (here's 10 bucks, thanks!)


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
Order AR/AccRel Brass
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 33479 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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