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I have a Buffalo hunt planned for Sept in Zimbabwe. How do I obtain blackthorn 209 or pellets so that I can hunt with my muzzleloader?

Going to be in the Save.

Thanks
John
 
Posts: 17 | Location: King Salmon, Alaska | Registered: 09 February 2013Reply With Quote
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Finding them in Zim will be close to impossible. If you know folks there, they may be able to get you some from South Africa. Or, contact LG Harrison in Harare and maybde they can help. It may be possible to have your PH get some from South Africa and be in camp for your arrival. Have a back up plan if somethign goes sour.

That said, here is what an un named friend did. He brougth rifle ammo with him, but loaded it with black powder. He pulled the bullets and used the powder in his muzzle loader. Of course he had a bolt rifle for plains game and used some of the ammo hunting and used other to bring in black powder.

As they say in Zim, so accurately, Make a Plan!
cal


_______________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
www.CalPappas.com
www.CalPappas.blogspot.com
1994 Zimbabwe
1997 Zimbabwe
1998 Zimbabwe
1999 Zimbabwe
1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation
2000 Australia
2002 South Africa
2003 South Africa
2003 Zimbabwe
2005 South Africa
2005 Zimbabwe
2006 Tanzania
2006 Zimbabwe--vacation
2007 Zimbabwe--vacation
2008 Zimbabwe
2012 Australia
2013 South Africa
2013 Zimbabwe
2013 Australia
2016 Zimbabwe
2017 Zimbabwe
2018 South Africa
2018 Zimbabwe--vacation
2019 South Africa
2019 Botswana
2019 Zimbabwe vacation
2021 South Africa
2012 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later)
______________________________
 
Posts: 6916 | Location: Willow, Alaska | Registered: 29 June 2009Reply With Quote
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Cal, if you do that you have violated the law because you brought explosives on a plane. Folks may have gotten away with stuffing shells with black powder, but that doesn't make it any less a violation of IATA rules (or so I am told).

Not a good idea.
 
Posts: 6906 | Location: Minnesota USA | Registered: 15 June 2007Reply With Quote
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You could bring along a shotgun with a box of shells hand loaded with pellets. That would provide you with both the pellets and the 209 primers. I think that there are pellets that are not considered to be explosives, but check first. I did that on a caribou hunt in Quebec a few years back.
 
Posts: 408 | Registered: 13 June 2012Reply With Quote
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Commercially available black powder and accessories don't really exist here. First prize would be bringing the stuff up from South Africa.

The local black powder enthusiasts grind and sieve their own powder from commercially-available blasting powder, which is OK on the range, but very dry.

You can contact the Zimbabwe black powder guru Phil Ineson on ineson@earth.co.zw and he might be able to give you some good information - perhaps someone, somewhere, may even have what you're looking for.
 
Posts: 408 | Location: Zimbabwe | Registered: 01 December 2010Reply With Quote
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Tried a few years ago for SA with no luck. Been trying Zim for past 6 months with no luck.

Putting stuff into rifle and shotgun shells, even pellets is not legal for shipment on a passenger aircraft. Asked a "celebrity" that did this, for a copy of the regulations that allows such and never heard back.

If someone can point to the regulation or guidance on packing into shells it would be a benefit to many.

I have not given up on Zim but am longer focused on getting any black powder so am taking a rifle. If you have any leads or any luck let me know.

John
 
Posts: 351 | Location: Tennessee, North Carolina | Registered: 01 April 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
Cal, if you do that you have violated the law because you brought explosives on a plane. Folks may have gotten away with stuffing shells with black powder, but that doesn't make it any less a violation of IATA rules (or so I am told).

Not a good idea.


I have never done this, but it has been done.

A couple of years ago on AR a gent said he had the laws that stated black powder loaded in a cartridge was, in fact, legal to transport. However I don't recall he ever produced the document.
Cal
PS. I've hunted with black powder doubles but only with smokeless loads. A friend hunted Australia and had the black powder waiting for him in camp. That is the easiest.


_______________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
www.CalPappas.com
www.CalPappas.blogspot.com
1994 Zimbabwe
1997 Zimbabwe
1998 Zimbabwe
1999 Zimbabwe
1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation
2000 Australia
2002 South Africa
2003 South Africa
2003 Zimbabwe
2005 South Africa
2005 Zimbabwe
2006 Tanzania
2006 Zimbabwe--vacation
2007 Zimbabwe--vacation
2008 Zimbabwe
2012 Australia
2013 South Africa
2013 Zimbabwe
2013 Australia
2016 Zimbabwe
2017 Zimbabwe
2018 South Africa
2018 Zimbabwe--vacation
2019 South Africa
2019 Botswana
2019 Zimbabwe vacation
2021 South Africa
2012 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later)
______________________________
 
Posts: 6916 | Location: Willow, Alaska | Registered: 29 June 2009Reply With Quote
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Air Travel with Black Powder is Absolutely Prohibited: What You Need to Know
Air Travel with Black Powder is Absolutely Prohibited: What You Need to Know

Black powder is a Class 1.10, Packing Group II, number UN0027 “Explosive”. Air travel with black powder in your checked luggage is prohibited. Carriage on a plane is not one single offense. Rather, it constitutes multiple offenses and subjects the sportsman to multiple separate civil penalties (15 to be exact) that can each be substantial. The following is a partial quote from a Notice of Proposed Civil Penalty received by a hunter when his luggage was found to contain one container of Jim Shockey’s Gold Premium Grade Black Powder Replacement:

By reason of the above, you violated the following Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials Regulations (Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations):

1. Section 171.2(a) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation in commerce when the hazardous material was not properly classed, described, packaged, marked, labeled, and in condition for shipment as required or authorized by applicable requirements of this subchapter.

2. Sections 172.200(a) and 172.202(a)(1) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the proper shipping name prescribed for the material in Column 2 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

3. Sections 172.200(a) and 172.202(a)(2) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the hazard class or division prescribed for the material as shown in Column 3 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

4. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(3) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the identification number prescribed for the material as shown in Column 4 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

5. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(4) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the packing grouping, in Roman numerals, prescribed for the material in Column 5 of the § 172.101 Table, if any, of the material covered by the description, in the manner required by this subpart.

6. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(5) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the total quantity (by net or gross mass, capacity, or as otherwise appropriate), including the unit of measurement, of the hazardous material covered by the description, in the manner required by this subpart.

7. Sections 172.204(a) or (c)(1) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to certify that the material was offered for transportation in accordance with this subchapter by printing on the shipping paper containing the required shipping description one of the certifications set forth in this part.

8. Section 172.204(c)(2) in that you offered a hazardous material to an aircraft operator for transportation by air and failed to provide two copies of the certification required in this section.

9. Section 172.204(c)(3) in that you offered for transportation by air a hazardous material authorized for air transportation and failed to add the certification required in this section the following statement:

“I declare that all of the applicable air transport requirements have been met.”

10. Section 172.301(a) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material in a non-bulk packaging and failed to mark the package with the proper shipping name and identification number (preceded by “UN” or “NA”, as appropriate) for the material as shown in the § 172.101 Table.

11. Section 172.400(a) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material in one of the packages or containment devices listed in this subpart and failed to label the package or containment device with the labels specified for the material in the § 172.101 Table and in this subpart.

12. Section 172.600(c) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material and failed to make the emergency response information immediately available for use at all times the hazardous material was present, and failed to make such information, including an emergency response telephone number, immediately available to any government agency responding to an incident involving hazardous material or conducting an investigation which involves a hazardous material.

13. Section 172.21(a) in that you offered for transportation materials designated “Forbidden” in Column 3 of the § 172.101 Table.

14. Section 173.21(b) in that you offered for transportation forbidden explosives as defined in § 173.54 of this part.

15. Section 173.54(a) in that you offered for transportation an explosive that had not been approved in accordance with § 173.56 of this subpart.

In accordance with Section 5123(a) of Chapter 51, Title 49 of the United States Code of Transportation, 49 U.S.C§ 5123, [name of violator] is liable for a civil penalty of not less than $250, nor greater than $50,000 ($100,000 if death, serious illness, severe injury, or substantial property damage results), for each violation of the regulations.
John J. Jackson, III
Conservation Force - A Force For Wildlife Conservation, Wild Places And Our Way Of Life
cf@conservationforce.org
www.conservationforce.org
http://www.phmsa.dot.gov/porta...RCRD&vgnextfmt=print

PHMSA Interpretation #01-0216
Oct 15, 2001
PHMSA Response Letter

October 15, 2001
 
Mr. Larry J. Talley                               Reference No. 01-0216
2499 Countrywood Parkway
Cordova, TN 38018
Dear Mr. Talley:
This responds to your letter dated August 7, 2001, regarding the transportation of black powder under the U.S. Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR; 49 CFR Parts 171-180) and the International Civil Aviation Organization's Technical Instructions for the Safe Transport of Dangerous Goods by Air (ICAO Technical Instructions).  Specifically, you ask if there are any exceptions that would allow for the domestic or international transportation of black powder by aircraft.
The answer is no.  The air transportation of black powder is forbidden both domestically under the HMR and internationally under the ICAO Technical Instructions.  Putting the black powder into either a shotgun case or brass rifle case, as you describe in your letter, and carrying it onto an aircraft, would be a willful violation of the regulations. .
I trust this satisfies your inquiry.  Please contact us if we can be of further assistance.
Sincerely,
 
Edward T. Mazzullo
Director
Office of Hazardous Materials Standards
173.22






 
Posts: 12411 | Registered: 01 July 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by shakari:
Air Travel with Black Powder is Absolutely Prohibited: What You Need to Know
Air Travel with Black Powder is Absolutely Prohibited: What You Need to Know

Black powder is a Class 1.10, Packing Group II, number UN0027 “Explosive”. Air travel with black powder in your checked luggage is prohibited. Carriage on a plane is not one single offense. Rather, it constitutes multiple offenses and subjects the sportsman to multiple separate civil penalties (15 to be exact) that can each be substantial. The following is a partial quote from a Notice of Proposed Civil Penalty received by a hunter when his luggage was found to contain one container of Jim Shockey’s Gold Premium Grade Black Powder Replacement:

By reason of the above, you violated the following Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials Regulations (Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations):

1. Section 171.2(a) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation in commerce when the hazardous material was not properly classed, described, packaged, marked, labeled, and in condition for shipment as required or authorized by applicable requirements of this subchapter.

2. Sections 172.200(a) and 172.202(a)(1) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the proper shipping name prescribed for the material in Column 2 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

3. Sections 172.200(a) and 172.202(a)(2) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the hazard class or division prescribed for the material as shown in Column 3 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

4. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(3) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the identification number prescribed for the material as shown in Column 4 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

5. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(4) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the packing grouping, in Roman numerals, prescribed for the material in Column 5 of the § 172.101 Table, if any, of the material covered by the description, in the manner required by this subpart.

6. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(5) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the total quantity (by net or gross mass, capacity, or as otherwise appropriate), including the unit of measurement, of the hazardous material covered by the description, in the manner required by this subpart.

7. Sections 172.204(a) or (c)(1) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to certify that the material was offered for transportation in accordance with this subchapter by printing on the shipping paper containing the required shipping description one of the certifications set forth in this part.

8. Section 172.204(c)(2) in that you offered a hazardous material to an aircraft operator for transportation by air and failed to provide two copies of the certification required in this section.

9. Section 172.204(c)(3) in that you offered for transportation by air a hazardous material authorized for air transportation and failed to add the certification required in this section the following statement:

“I declare that all of the applicable air transport requirements have been met.”

10. Section 172.301(a) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material in a non-bulk packaging and failed to mark the package with the proper shipping name and identification number (preceded by “UN” or “NA”, as appropriate) for the material as shown in the § 172.101 Table.

11. Section 172.400(a) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material in one of the packages or containment devices listed in this subpart and failed to label the package or containment device with the labels specified for the material in the § 172.101 Table and in this subpart.

12. Section 172.600(c) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material and failed to make the emergency response information immediately available for use at all times the hazardous material was present, and failed to make such information, including an emergency response telephone number, immediately available to any government agency responding to an incident involving hazardous material or conducting an investigation which involves a hazardous material.

13. Section 172.21(a) in that you offered for transportation materials designated “Forbidden” in Column 3 of the § 172.101 Table.

14. Section 173.21(b) in that you offered for transportation forbidden explosives as defined in § 173.54 of this part.

15. Section 173.54(a) in that you offered for transportation an explosive that had not been approved in accordance with § 173.56 of this subpart.

In accordance with Section 5123(a) of Chapter 51, Title 49 of the United States Code of Transportation, 49 U.S.C§ 5123, [name of violator] is liable for a civil penalty of not less than $250, nor greater than $50,000 ($100,000 if death, serious illness, severe injury, or substantial property damage results), for each violation of the regulations.
John J. Jackson, III
Conservation Force - A Force For Wildlife Conservation, Wild Places And Our Way Of Life
cf@conservationforce.org
www.conservationforce.org
http://www.phmsa.dot.gov/porta...RCRD&vgnextfmt=print

PHMSA Interpretation #01-0216
Oct 15, 2001
PHMSA Response Letter

October 15, 2001
 
Mr. Larry J. Talley                               Reference No. 01-0216
2499 Countrywood Parkway
Cordova, TN 38018
Dear Mr. Talley:
This responds to your letter dated August 7, 2001, regarding the transportation of black powder under the U.S. Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR; 49 CFR Parts 171-180) and the International Civil Aviation Organization's Technical Instructions for the Safe Transport of Dangerous Goods by Air (ICAO Technical Instructions).  Specifically, you ask if there are any exceptions that would allow for the domestic or international transportation of black powder by aircraft.
The answer is no.  The air transportation of black powder is forbidden both domestically under the HMR and internationally under the ICAO Technical Instructions.  Putting the black powder into either a shotgun case or brass rifle case, as you describe in your letter, and carrying it onto an aircraft, would be a willful violation of the regulations. .
I trust this satisfies your inquiry.  Please contact us if we can be of further assistance.
Sincerely,
 
Edward T. Mazzullo
Director
Office of Hazardous Materials Standards
173.22


That puts an end to it.!


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Posts: 57485 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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Steve

Thank you!

Saved me a ton of time going to look for that. There are still going to be guys putting them into shells or carrying them in their carry on. Certain TV personalities, powder company salesmen and SCI record holders are among those that have hunted with powders that are not available on the African continent.

If would be fantastic if one was able to hunt with a muzzleloader in Africa. If the powder is available there and obtained legally, great. But if one has to smuggle it over, then are you an ethical hunter? What about the dangers associated with carrying that powder? If you were willing to circumvent the rules then maybe you didn't take all the precautions you needed. What would happen if that was next to a bag with a lithium battery and a fire started?

John
 
Posts: 351 | Location: Tennessee, North Carolina | Registered: 01 April 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by TNJohn:
Steve

Thank you!

Saved me a ton of time going to look for that. There are still going to be guys putting them into shells or carrying them in their carry on. Certain TV personalities, powder company salesmen and SCI record holders are among those that have hunted with powders that are not available on the African continent.

If would be fantastic if one was able to hunt with a muzzleloader in Africa. If the powder is available there and obtained legally, great. But if one has to smuggle it over, then are you an ethical hunter? What about the dangers associated with carrying that powder? If you were willing to circumvent the rules then maybe you didn't take all the precautions you needed. What would happen if that was next to a bag with a lithium battery and a fire started?

John


Glad you found it useful. Wink

I have absolutely no time for any idiot stupid enough to even attempt such an act & IMO, they deserve all those penalties plus a whole lot more.

Those rules & all carriage of dangerous goods rules are there for bloody good reason & all it takes is for such an act plus a loading error such as something like flammable when wet material loaded next to frozen goods in the same compartment/hold & you have a disaster in the making.

The 1996 Valujet Everglades crash being a prime example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ValuJet_Flight_592






 
Posts: 12411 | Registered: 01 July 2002Reply With Quote
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thank you for all the suggestions.....I will not be trying to smuggle it...I will reach out to contacts in Zimbabwe and see if I can make it hapen. if not I will just use my old handy dandy 375 HH.
 
Posts: 17 | Location: King Salmon, Alaska | Registered: 09 February 2013Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by john7997:
thank you for all the suggestions.....I will not be trying to smuggle it...I will reach out to contacts in Zimbabwe and see if I can make it hapen. if not I will just use my old handy dandy 375 HH.


John;

You might consider contacting Eugene Combrink of Sabi Rifles/Magnum Arms in Nelspruit South Africa & asking him if he can arrange to get the necessary items sent to Zim for you.






 
Posts: 12411 | Registered: 01 July 2002Reply With Quote
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I'd contact the folks that make Blackhorn 209 to see if that powder is classified the same as black powder. If it is you're out of luck. However, if it's in the same classification as smokeless powder it should be legal to load some in shotgun cartridges.


Tom Z

NRA Life Member
 
Posts: 2077 | Location: Pennsylvania | Registered: 07 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Labman:
I'd contact the folks that make Blackhorn 209 to see if that powder is classified the same as black powder. If it is you're out of luck. However, if it's in the same classification as smokeless powder it should be legal to load some in shotgun cartridges.


All you need to do is check the UN classification on the container. If it says 'Explosive' of any kind then it can't be carried at all. If it says 'Flammable' then it might be possible dependent on container & quantity.






 
Posts: 12411 | Registered: 01 July 2002Reply With Quote
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The following might be interesting. Blackhorn 209 is NOT a black powder, but a nitrocellulous powder, and smokeless. So not BP, and if you are taking rounds along, would seem to be just the same as any other powder.

Is Blackhorn 209 really a Smokeless Powder? - The Firearm ...
www.thefirearmblog.com/.../is-...y-a-smokeless-powder

Jun 11, 2010 · As such, I understand Western s desire not to label Blackhorn 209 is a nitrocellulose smokeless powder. Western also claims that Blackhorn 209 has absolutely none of the corrosive effects of black powder and most black powder subs.

I hope the entire article came through, but if not the site for it might. Hope this helps.
 
Posts: 459 | Location: Maryland | Registered: 18 June 2006Reply With Quote
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Tysue...... the link you posted shows 'Not Found'.

However, assuming the info on this link is correct then Blackhorn 209 is UN Classification 'Explosive 1:3' & therefore may NOT be carried on any commercial aircraft under any circumstances whatsoever.

http://www.blackhorn209.com/wp...lackhorn-209-SDS.pdf






 
Posts: 12411 | Registered: 01 July 2002Reply With Quote
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One other, divergent, point is to make sure that the muzzle-loader produces adequate muzzle energy in terms of Zimbabwe law. On Buffalo, it must be 5.3kJ, or 3,909 foot pounds or greater.
 
Posts: 408 | Location: Zimbabwe | Registered: 01 December 2010Reply With Quote
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It is definitely illegal. You can get a $250,000 fine and be on the no fly list for life, plus some jail time I believe. Many many years ago, I shared with someone here one of those ways to do this like was mentioned above. Some nice AR member copied the post from here and turned me in to the authorities. The FBI came to my house. They were cool and nothing happened, but they explained what would happen if I got caught trying to fly with it. In short, don't do it, not worth any chance. I have never seen Blackhorn or even Pyrodex or Triple7 powder in Africa, when a store does have, it is straight, old fashioned black powder.


Good Hunting,

Tim Herald
Worldwide Trophy Adventures
tim@trophyadventures.com
 
Posts: 2945 | Location: Lexington, KY | Registered: 13 January 2005Reply With Quote
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I have a vague idea that Sabi Rifles in Nelspruit sells or used to sell either Pyrodex or Triple 7............. or perhaps a locally made equivalent.

The Powder Keg in Jo'burg might also be worth a try.






 
Posts: 12411 | Registered: 01 July 2002Reply With Quote
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I've been really busy this week, but sent off a query to Pierre van der Walt (African Dangerous Game Cartridges)in South Africa and got a reply back this morning:

"Sadly not available in SA. We had Sannadex but that ground to a halt".
 
Posts: 408 | Location: Zimbabwe | Registered: 01 December 2010Reply With Quote
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I know guys who load up shotgun shells with BP an take along a cheap,shotgun for birds
 
Posts: 674 | Location: Quakertown, Pa. | Registered: 11 December 2008Reply With Quote
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Well, these silly rules are a lot of bullshit. How can a fella hunt in Africa with his Sharps rifle without using G.d. smokeless?
By the way, that Sannadex was an interesting black powder substitute, as it was even suitable for use in flintlocks.


There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t.
– John Green, author
 
Posts: 14201 | Location: Alamogordo, NM | Registered: 03 June 2000Reply With Quote
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With all due respect, anyone who smuggles or tries to smuggle any kind of explosive material onto a commercial passenger aircraft in this post 9/11 world in which we live or who thinks the regulations are BS needs their head read.

Air Travel with Black Powder is Absolutely Prohibited: What You Need to Know
Air Travel with Black Powder is Absolutely Prohibited: What You Need to Know

Black powder is a Class 1.10, Packing Group II, number UN0027 “Explosive”. Air travel with black powder in your checked luggage is prohibited. Carriage on a plane is not one single offense. Rather, it constitutes multiple offenses and subjects the sportsman to multiple separate civil penalties (15 to be exact) that can each be substantial. The following is a partial quote from a Notice of Proposed Civil Penalty received by a hunter when his luggage was found to contain one container of Jim Shockey’s Gold Premium Grade Black Powder Replacement:

By reason of the above, you violated the following Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials Regulations (Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations):

1. Section 171.2(a) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation in commerce when the hazardous material was not properly classed, described, packaged, marked, labeled, and in condition for shipment as required or authorized by applicable requirements of this subchapter.

2. Sections 172.200(a) and 172.202(a)(1) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the proper shipping name prescribed for the material in Column 2 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

3. Sections 172.200(a) and 172.202(a)(2) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the hazard class or division prescribed for the material as shown in Column 3 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

4. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(3) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the identification number prescribed for the material as shown in Column 4 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

5. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(4) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the packing grouping, in Roman numerals, prescribed for the material in Column 5 of the § 172.101 Table, if any, of the material covered by the description, in the manner required by this subpart.

6. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(5) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the total quantity (by net or gross mass, capacity, or as otherwise appropriate), including the unit of measurement, of the hazardous material covered by the description, in the manner required by this subpart.

7. Sections 172.204(a) or (c)(1) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to certify that the material was offered for transportation in accordance with this subchapter by printing on the shipping paper containing the required shipping description one of the certifications set forth in this part.

8. Section 172.204(c)(2) in that you offered a hazardous material to an aircraft operator for transportation by air and failed to provide two copies of the certification required in this section.

9. Section 172.204(c)(3) in that you offered for transportation by air a hazardous material authorized for air transportation and failed to add the certification required in this section the following statement:

“I declare that all of the applicable air transport requirements have been met.”

10. Section 172.301(a) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material in a non-bulk packaging and failed to mark the package with the proper shipping name and identification number (preceded by “UN” or “NA”, as appropriate) for the material as shown in the § 172.101 Table.

11. Section 172.400(a) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material in one of the packages or containment devices listed in this subpart and failed to label the package or containment device with the labels specified for the material in the § 172.101 Table and in this subpart.

12. Section 172.600(c) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material and failed to make the emergency response information immediately available for use at all times the hazardous material was present, and failed to make such information, including an emergency response telephone number, immediately available to any government agency responding to an incident involving hazardous material or conducting an investigation which involves a hazardous material.

13. Section 172.21(a) in that you offered for transportation materials designated “Forbidden” in Column 3 of the § 172.101 Table.

14. Section 173.21(b) in that you offered for transportation forbidden explosives as defined in § 173.54 of this part.

15. Section 173.54(a) in that you offered for transportation an explosive that had not been approved in accordance with § 173.56 of this subpart.

In accordance with Section 5123(a) of Chapter 51, Title 49 of the United States Code of Transportation, 49 U.S.C§ 5123, [name of violator] is liable for a civil penalty of not less than $250, nor greater than $50,000 ($100,000 if death, serious illness, severe injury, or substantial property damage results), for each violation of the regulations.
John J. Jackson, III
Conservation Force - A Force For Wildlife Conservation, Wild Places And Our Way Of Life
cf@conservationforce.org
www.conservationforce.org
http://www.phmsa.dot.gov/porta...RCRD&vgnextfmt=print

PHMSA Interpretation #01-0216
Oct 15, 2001
PHMSA Response Letter

October 15, 2001

Mr. Larry J. Talley Reference No. 01-0216
2499 Countrywood Parkway
Cordova, TN 38018
Dear Mr. Talley:
This responds to your letter dated August 7, 2001, regarding the transportation of black powder under the U.S. Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR; 49 CFR Parts 171-180) and the International Civil Aviation Organization's Technical Instructions for the Safe Transport of Dangerous Goods by Air (ICAO Technical Instructions). Specifically, you ask if there are any exceptions that would allow for the domestic or international transportation of black powder by aircraft.
The answer is no. The air transportation of black powder is forbidden both domestically under the HMR and internationally under the ICAO Technical Instructions. Putting the black powder into either a shotgun case or brass rifle case, as you describe in your letter, and carrying it onto an aircraft, would be a willful violation of the regulations. .
I trust this satisfies your inquiry. Please contact us if we can be of further assistance.
Sincerely,

Edward T. Mazzullo
Director
Office of Hazardous Materials Standards
173.22






 
Posts: 12411 | Registered: 01 July 2002Reply With Quote
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Bingo!
 
Posts: 10855 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: 26 January 2006Reply With Quote
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This is meant as a sarcastic post. I find it interesting that in one paragraph the author talks about not "sneaking" stuff onto a plane and then two paragraphs later describes how he illegally transported 777 on a passenger aircraft. Evidentially this is in his book and on several web sites about Muzzle loading.

Do you think if I follow this advice that it will be okay for me to take powder to Africa? After all this is from a muzzleloader hunting expert and long-time field editor, also he wrote a book on the subject.

Quoted from the "Experts" book;

“The usual advice I received was that I should place the powder in shotgun and/or rifle cartridges and transport them with me on the airlines. But I don’t like the idea of attempting to "sneak" loads past customs, especially after 9/11. I had visions of being led away in handcuffs by some airport security personnel who had no appreciation for muzzleloaders. The other advice was that those hunters who took Pyrodex pellets in an unopened sealed container had not been challenged in the U.S. or South Africa.”

“Eventually I worked up Pyrodex RS powder cartridges packaged in rubber waterproof tubes in plastic twenty-round boxes. I labeled them as Muzzleloader Cartridges and had them professionally wrapped. I placed them in a double locked ammunition case along with my 209 primers and musket caps as well as including a box of Triple 7 pellets. I also placed packaged 460 and 600-grain Power Punch conicals, 530-grain Power Belt dangerous game bullets and 435-grain Buffalo Sabots in my gun case.”
 
Posts: 351 | Location: Tennessee, North Carolina | Registered: 01 April 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by TNJohn:
Do you think if I follow this advice that it will be okay for me to take powder to Africa? After all this is from a muzzleloader hunting expert and long-time field editor, also he wrote a book on the subject.

“The usual advice I received was that I should place the powder in shotgun and/or rifle cartridges and transport them with me on the airlines. But I don’t like the idea of attempting to "sneak" loads past customs, especially after 9/11. I had visions of being led away in handcuffs by some airport security personnel who had no appreciation for muzzleloaders. The other advice was that those hunters who took Pyrodex pellets in an unopened sealed container had not been challenged in the U.S. or South Africa.”

“Eventually I worked up Pyrodex RS powder cartridges packaged in rubber waterproof tubes in plastic twenty-round boxes. I labeled them as Muzzleloader Cartridges and had them professionally wrapped. I placed them in a double locked ammunition case along with my 209 primers and musket caps as well as including a box of Triple 7 pellets. I also placed packaged 460 and 600-grain Power Punch conicals, 530-grain Power Belt dangerous game bullets and 435-grain Buffalo Sabots in my gun case.”


I think if you follow that advice and you get caught, they'll put you under the jail and throw away the key, and fine you for all you're worth.

Even worse, if you do this, and cause an explosion on the aircraft, you'll jeopardize not only your life, but the lives of all the other passengers on board.

See Steve's post above.

Seriously, why are people still asking if this is OK to try and skirt around the law with potentially deadly consequences.
 
Posts: 8103 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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This was a sarcastic post.

Unfortunately people are following his advice.
 
Posts: 351 | Location: Tennessee, North Carolina | Registered: 01 April 2004Reply With Quote
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Something else to consider, used to be done decades ago before airlines. go to a shipping company and look into shipping a quantity of BP over by SHIP. would need to contact some company on the other end to receive it, and also make sure it's legal to import. But back in the day, as the saying goes, and now we're probably looking at a 100 years ago, people shipped their guns and such forward, and followed them up later. Would seem this might be a way around the shipping by air thing. And today, shipping by ship not going to take months. I don't know if it's doable, but worth looking into. I'd send real BP, and not fool with the pyrodex or such. Going to do it at all, do it right.
 
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Posts: 10855 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: 26 January 2006Reply With Quote
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Guys

The answer is actually REALLY, REALLY simple.

All you have to do is look on the manufacturers packaging & note the UN classification rating.

If it says EXPLOSIVE + any classification number, it is absolutely, positively forbidden to be carried on any commercial aircraft under ANY circumstances & if caught, you could easily face a fine of $750k plus possible jail time & possibly considerably more depending on what else they decide to charge you with including possible terrorist charges.

If it says FLAMMABLE + any classification number it may possibly be carried depending on packaging & several other criteria.

I simply fail to understand what's difficult to understand about that & if you want a really good example o what can happen when some fidiot loads the wrong goods onto an aircraft just Google 'Value Jet Everglades crash'

Is it really worth the risk FFS?






 
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The only way to find out is the hard way. coffee
 
Posts: 1428 | Registered: 06 September 2008Reply With Quote
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Steve,

You are absolutely correct concerning the shipping requirements for blackpowder and substitutes.

But regarding the Valuejet crash:

quote:
I simply fail to understand what's difficult to understand about that & if you want a really good example o what can happen when some fidiot loads the wrong goods onto an aircraft just Google 'Value Jet Everglades crash'


In this case it was the storage of oxygen generators on board aircraft, not explosives. I know because we were the ones who put together and did the initial training for all handlers in the US after this incident.


Roger
___________________________
I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along.
- Glen St Charles

*we band of 45-70ers*
 
Posts: 2498 | Location: Washington (wetside) | Registered: 08 February 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Cougarz:
Steve,

You are absolutely correct concerning the shipping requirements for blackpowder and substitutes.

But regarding the Valuejet crash:

quote:
I simply fail to understand what's difficult to understand about that & if you want a really good example o what can happen when some fidiot loads the wrong goods onto an aircraft just Google 'Value Jet Everglades crash'


In this case it was the storage of oxygen generators on board aircraft, not explosives. I know because we were the ones who put together and did the initial training for all handlers in the US after this incident.


In this case it was the storage of oxygen generators on board aircraft, not explosives. I know because we were the ones who put together and did the initial training for all handlers in the US after this incident.[/QUOTE]

I might not have made my point clearly & if so, my apologies.

I didn't suggest BP etc was involved in the Value Jet incident........ My point was what can happen in the event of any dangerous goods being loaded onto any aircraft & how a mixture of them can make things so much worse.............. In the Value Jet incident was not only the oxygen generators that caused the problem but also the fact they were loaded next to a spares pack which included aircraft tyres that also caught alight.

A theoretical example might be BP in any form loaded next to 'flammable when wet' goods loaded next to frozen goods. Combine that with a hot summer day & a delay in getting in the air & you have an instant recipe for disaster.

Which is why the Air Navigation Order, Carriage Of Dangerous Goods Act is so important & why penalties for transporting incorrectly marked goods so dire. Wink

https://aviation-safety.net/da...rd.php?id=19960511-0






 
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Get a Savage Muzzleloader 10ML II, and shoot it with one of the Savage approved smokeless loads. So by picking a modern rifle that uses the right load you will even have a speed loader for your front stuffer. You get your way and stay legal.
 
Posts: 304 | Registered: 11 March 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Arniet:
Get a Savage Muzzleloader 10ML II, and shoot it with one of the Savage approved smokeless loads. So by picking a modern rifle that uses the right load you will even have a speed loader for your front stuffer. You get your way and stay legal.


It's not about who makes it but rather what UN classification it is.

If the UN classification is 'Explosive' + any number, it's forbidden to travel on any commercial aircraft & if the UN classification is 'Flammable' + any number then it may be permitted under some circumstances.

I took a quick look at some of the reloading data for Savage muzzle loaders & at least some of the powders are UN rated as explosive rather than flammable & would therefore be forbidden to travel.

Even if you can find a substitute that is listed as 'Flammable' & therefore legal, you'd still need to find a solution to the packaging issue because I believe (but am not 110% sure) you couldn't take it in it's original pot because there would be too much in one container & it'd be required to be in it's original packaging so it's a Catch 22 situation.






 
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I guess I wasn't quite clear. You bring a 45-70, and your full allowance of cartridges, loaded 300 grain bullets and 52.3 grains of RL-7, right out of the H handbook. This gives you a speed loader for the Savage ML, just a couple of whacks with a bullet puller. You have the powder and bullet, just bring the sabot in your luggage. That will give you everything but the 209 primer. Can you buy those in Zim?
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Arniet:
I guess I wasn't quite clear. You bring a 45-70, and your full allowance of cartridges, loaded 300 grain bullets and 52.3 grains of RL-7, right out of the H handbook. This gives you a speed loader for the Savage ML, just a couple of whacks with a bullet puller. You have the powder and bullet, just bring the sabot in your luggage. That will give you everything but the 209 primer. Can you buy those in Zim?


RL7 appears to be UN rating Explosive 1.3 so therefore absolutely banned from travel on any commercial aircraft under any circumstance whatsoever & attempt to do so could bring a fine of $750k if no one was injured & twice that if they were plus possible jail time dependent on circumstances. (See my previous post about penalties etc)

See 'Section 2 - Hazards Identification'

http://www.alliantpowder.com/d...loder_Series_SDS.pdf

Please don't think I'm trying to be awkward because that isn't my intent............... My intent is to explain the rules so no-one gets into trouble or injured/killed etc.






 
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quote:
Originally posted by shakari:
quote:
Originally posted by Arniet:
I guess I wasn't quite clear. You bring a 45-70, and your full allowance of cartridges, loaded 300 grain bullets and 52.3 grains of RL-7, right out of the H handbook. This gives you a speed loader for the Savage ML, just a couple of whacks with a bullet puller. You have the powder and bullet, just bring the sabot in your luggage. That will give you everything but the 209 primer. Can you buy those in Zim?


RL7 appears to be UN rating Explosive 1.3 so therefore absolutely banned from travel on any commercial aircraft under any circumstance whatsoever & attempt to do so could bring a fine of $750k if no one was injured & twice that if they were plus possible jail time dependent on circumstances. (See my previous post about penalties etc)

See 'Section 2 - Hazards Identification'

http://www.alliantpowder.com/d...loder_Series_SDS.pdf

Please don't think I'm trying to be awkward because that isn't my intent............... My intent is to explain the rules so no-one gets into trouble or injured/killed etc.


Steve,

I'm thinking there must be more info that is missing from your link and carriage of the RL powders. The link you provided appears to apply to ALL Reloader (RL) powders from Alliant. If that is the case, and there is no additional exemptions allowing carriage, then one of the most widely used powders for dangerous game calibers, RL-15, would also fall into that classification.

What am I missing here?
 
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Steve, for example, see the sheet for Hodgen powders as well here:

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-con...powders_02-11-14.pdf
 
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