Anyone have any experience with this new system? All I can find is a patent application and the only gunsmith I know working with them is being secretive. All I know is they're using a primed .308 case with 350 grain .45 caliber slugs out to 400 yards. Thanks

You can buy a video from Richard Franklin on how to convert a rifle to a smokeless muzzleloader. I recently built one that uses 209 primers for a guy in IA and it's shooting very well, 310 or 320 gr bullet (458 Caliber) at 2900 fps and so far about 1.5" groups at 300 yards. That's as far as he has tested it so far.

Yes, there are a few ways to do it; one is to use short brass cases like 9mm or .45 acp (or cut off 308s) and a musket nipple; the case fits hard on the inside to seal the system. Or you can use 209 primers but I have found that they don't seal as well as the former case. (I mean design). I just built one of those too but I only shoot 777 in it. On a P14 action. Or you can make a breech plug to seat primers directly, then punch them out with a cleaning rod/punch. Or you can make a chamber that seals by obturation on a short case, but that is hard to make gas tight too as your flash hole is very small. Of course you must use a chrome moly barrel; not a ML barrel. They are made from weak steel; 1137 or 12L14 are the two most popular. Anyway, you have to use the right bullets; Parker makes them; they must obturate upon firing or they won't spin. You can use sabots too but I don't think they will go as fast as the copper ones. Look up Parker bullets and you will see. Building a ML like this is not hard at all and yes, smiths who do it for money do not want you to know that.

I used a modified Savage breech plug in a rem 700 muzzleloader. My customer supplied me with a nifty aftermarket bolt head and firing pin assembly that is a shell holder type for the 209 primer. It wprked pretty damned slick. This was also set up for full diameter .458 bullets that were used after sizing thru a die made by Swinglock. It uses a 1" section of the barrel used on the rifle and you run the bullet thru the die to pre-engrave the rifling on the bullet (it's a collet arrangement that compresses the barrel section to size the bullet slightly undersized). You have to pre-align the grooves to the rifling to load, but it seems to work very well. I used a custom Brux barrel on this one and it looks like he'll really be able to reach out there with it.

I am so glad you posted this response, matt; many years ago I tried the pre engraved bullet idea (I got it from watching our 4.2 inch Mortar platoon fire one day, and I noticed that all the rounds had pre engraved rifling grooves in them.) Anyway, I used a piece of barrel and swaged the bullets with rifling; problem was, they sprung back enough so they still wouldn't go down the barrel; so I abandoned the idea. Until now.

Thanks guys, the pre-swaging .458 projectiles seems to be the ticket for accuracy. I twisted my smith's arm further and got some more info. There's probably more people making these ML's than show, but Ashland Gun Innovations has some good info on their site. He makes a durned good looking ML with some very nice stats at 550 yards.
It's got me thinking about the possibilities for an inline squirrel rifle since Green Mountain Rifle Barrel Company stopped making their Small Game Rifle. I missed the boat on that one and regretted it since. Using .224 cast bullets and black powder would be a hoot for squirrels, Fall turkey, and ground hogs. It would give my .218 Bee brass a rest.

the "new" Remington 700 muzzleloader uses that system. it is listed on the package that the primers to be used are actually 9 1/2's

Why tweek a muzzleloader till it gets as close to a centerfire rifle as is possible? Sounds like a lot of fun and I can understand experimenting and playing if even just for the sake of fun. But other than playing, what's the purpose of such a rifle? Is it to stay under the definition of muzzleloader for hunting use? If that's the case then it defeats the whole purpose of separate seasons for "primitive" weapons.

It would make just as much sense to start with a centerfire rifle and dumb it down till it is a muzzleloader. Sorry, I don't get it.

No, for me it is just to do something else that shoots; projects for fun and target shooting.
Yes, they are classified as muzzle loaders because they can only be loaded from the muzzle. Most states do not care what it is loaded with; some do.
I am not in favor at all for in-lines being used in ML seasons; but most states have allowed them to reduce the deer population. Using in lines is like using a 30-06 on deer; I have actually killed one with an inline. However, these things sell for the same price as a Flint Lock (lock only) and they use pellets so the users only have to count to one, two, or three; nothing more complicated. I have seen them at the range and they are scary to watch; they have no interest in muzzle loaders; they just want to get into an extra deer season. I much prefer my flintlocks and I wish in lines were not allowed, but that ship has sailed and I know there is tons of hate mail that will follow this posting.

Well for my customer (and several more upcoming now) they are from IA, which limits you to muzzleloader/shotgun ONLY. It's just about making a more effective weapon for their gun limitations allowed. In fact a good friend sent me a message last week saying "OK, you can build me one of those muzzleloaders now" as he had his son out during their regular gun season and passed on 3 different 150 class deer because of distance and wind. A 300 yard shot with one of these is very doable. I agree with muzzleloader only seasons and keeping it 'traditional'. I hunted with a custom Hawken this year during our regular rifle season and it was enjoyable as hell, BUT, if I lived in IA under the guidelines set, I'd sure as hell build one of these for myself and use it during the regular season when the road hunters are blasting at deer at any distance with smoothbore shotguns. My customer shot a 1 1/2" 3 shot at 300 yards in a good wind the other day with this one I built and he's happy as hell with it.

Good point; I do live in Iowa and true, you can get some long shots that a slug won't reach; I have had to pass up some nice bucks that way. As I said, most states have not embraced the "traditional, primitive" ML seasons; they just want to get rid of excess deer.
And most guys could care less about tradition; they just want to kill them.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Good point; I do live in Iowa and true, you can get some long shots that a slug won't reach; I have had to pass up some nice bucks that way. As I said, most states have not embraced the "traditional, primitive" ML seasons; they just want to get rid of excess deer.
And most guys could care less about tradition; they just want to kill them.

Real primitive would be a spear or stone axe.Me ,I want a clean one shot kill since I am limited to a single shot muzzle loader.I am all in favor of an early primitive muzzle loader hunt in Wi.,but would also like to see a proficiency test with said weapon before issuing a license .

Check out www.smokelessmz.com. Luke who owns smokelessmz used an old Remington 700 muzzleloader action and fitted it with a Pacnor barrel. It's got more potential than 300 yards, but that is as far as I've shot it.

Also go to dougsmessageboards.proboards.com and look in the savage smokeless muzzleloader section. This forum is the place to learn about smokeless muzzloading.

What I would consider "NEAT" is if someone made ML conversions for popular pump shotguns

I can easily see how one could make these as a "drop in" conversion...

If anyone makes something like I am describing let ma know...

Years ago (10-15???) I remember seeing a muzzleloading barrel for either the Rem 870 or Mossberg 500 shotguns... They did make them at one time.

Yes they did make them. Not too popular so they quit, but it would not be hard to make one if someone really wanted one. And it could be made to use smokeless powder as well; that is where the cut off .308 case comes in. It is no a secret how to do it.

I live in Iowa and I don't have any problem with the modern in line muzzleloaders, BUT, I think they should only be allowed during our shotgun seasons, not during the early primitive muzzle loading hunts.
I also think that most people who use them are just looking to get in on an earlier specialty hunt. I don't think inlines and nitro muzzle loaders should be allowed to compete with the flint shooters for the earlier tags.
I own both primitive ignition system guns and one inline, which I look at as only a meat gun. There is not as much sport to shooting a deer with the inline as it hardly ever fails to hit and never fails to fire.

If you shoot an in line you might as well shoot a 30-06; nothing primitive about it. As I said, those guys are just milking the original spirit of the muzzleloading seasons. Yes, I have killed deer with inlines for full disclosure. Like shooting them with a 30-06. Here is one I just finished; a .50 cal, stainless, fast twist on a Winchester P14 action, Just like shooting, well, a 30-06. I will be ashamed to hunt with it but I might.

Interesting but not legal to hunt with in Idaho, We are very strict locally. They enforce this with the term, primitive hunt, no modern stuff of any kind. I have no problem with that to be otherwise is a farce..An inline with primer ignition is as easy to kill with as a 30-30. I think all black powder hunts should be primitive otherwise hunt the rifle hunts..Apparantly the state of Idaho sees it that way..I also think bow hunting should not include cross bows.

To see a hunter with an inline muzzle loader with pre weighed powder and ball, with a 2x9 scope, is just wrong!! Not taking away his right to use such a firearm, just believe he should use it during the regular rifle season, as he has removed the difficulty of a primitive hunt..