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I just took delivery of an 8 bore rifle by Hollie Wessel through The Gun Works of Springfield, Oregon. The rifle is built in the style of such rifles as used by the early to mid-nineteenth century African hunters and explorers. It features a 30" tapered octagon barrel and balances beautifully at 11 pounds, which, of course, is a tad on the light side if one would be serious about taking it to Africa for buff or ele and loading it up with 300gr of FFG. That said, it is not going anywhere other than my local range. I am thinking of a starting load of 100gr FFG behind an patched, round ball. Any further thoughts? | ||
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I think pictures are in order!  One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know. - Groucho Marx | |||
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100 grains will be a pussy cat in that rifle. DRSS | |||
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I would add photos if I could figure out how?? | |||
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I too have an 8bore rifle that I'm ready to shoot - today perhaps. An R.B. Rodda. My starting load is going to be 150grs 2F using a patched .835" roundball. I agree that 100grs, while fun, will just be lobbing the ball downrange. Even 150grs is a pretty light charge that may be just about 800fps. My guess is that 200-230grs will be the sweet spot and get around 1200fps with a roundball. I don't have much interest in a 300gr charge... I highly recommend www.ballmoulds.com for the mold if you haven't bought one yet. | |||
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Gents: I am using a new Lab Radar to chronograph all of my double rifle loads. I was planning a thread in the double rifle forum but since the question was raised here, here is my 8-bore data. Enjoy, Cal 8-BORE LOCKE DOUBLE RIFLE, 1890 24” BARRELS, RIFLE WEIGHT OF 17 POUNDS LAB RADAR VELOCITY ON HANDGUN SETTING NOTES: MUZZLE AND RECOIL VELOCITIES ARE IN FEET PER SECOND MUZZLE AND RECOIL ENERGY ARE IN FOOT POUNDS RECOIL CALUCLATIONS FROM: SHOOTERSCALCULATOR.COM MKO FROM JOHN TAYLOR’S KNOCK OUT VALUE ALL CALCULATIONS FROM 6-SHOT STRINGS I. BLACK POWDER BALL 275 GRAINS (10 DRAMS) FFG GOEX, 1000 GRAINS SPHERICAL BALL AVERAGE FPS: 1372 MUZZLE ENERGY: 4181 MKO: 171.5 RECOIL VELOCITY: 23.08 RECOIL ENERGY: 140.78 275 GRAINS (10 DRAMS) FFFG GOEX, 1000 GRAINS SPHERICAL BALL AVERAGE FPS: 1467 MUZZLE ENERGY: 4780 MKO: 183.4 RECOIL VELOCITY: 23.88 RECOIL ENERGY: 150.69 275 GRAINS (10 DRAMS) FFFG SWISS, 1000 GRAINS SPHERICAL BALL AVERAGE FPS: 1502 MUZZLE ENERGY: 5011 MKO: 187.8 RECOIL VELCOITY: 24.18 RECOIL ENERGY: 154.42 275 GRAINS (10 DRAMS) FFFG OLDE EYNSFORD AVERAGE FPS: 1512 MUZZLE ENERGY: 5077.61 MKO: 189 RECOIL VELOCITY: 24.26 RECOIL ENERGY: 155.49 330 GRAINS (12 DRAMS) FFFG GOEX AVERAGE FPS: 1611 MUZZLE ENERGY: 5764 MKO: 201.4 RECOIL VELOCITY: 27.4 RECOIL ENERGY: 198.39 330 GRAINS (12 DRAMS) FFFG SWISS AVERAGE FPS: 1624 MUZZLE ENERGY: 5901 MKO: 203.75 RECOIL VELOCITY: 27.51 RECOIL ENERGY: 199.98 330 GRAINS (12 DRAMS) FFFG OLDE EYNSFORD AVERAGE FPS: 1617 MUZZLE ENERGY: 5807 MKO: 202.13 RECOIL VELOCITY: 27.45 RECOIL ENERGY: 199.12 II. SMOKELESS POWDER: BALL 85 GRAINS BLUE DOT, 1000 GRAINS SPHERICAL BALL AVERAGE FPS: 1340 MUZZLE ENERGY: 3988 MKO: 167.5 RECOIL VELOCITY: 14.62 RECOIL ENERGY: 56.48 100 GRAINS BLUE DOT, 1000 GRAINS SPHERICAL BALL AVERAGE FPS: 1400 MUZZLE ENERGY: 4353 MKO: 175 RECOIL VELOCITY: 15.97 RECOIL ENERGY: 67.35 50 GRAINS UNIQUE, 1000 GRAINS SPHERICAL BALL AVERAFE FPS: 1260 MUZZLE ENERGY: 3526 MKO: 157.5 RECOIL VELOCITY: 12.69 RECOIL ENERGY: 42.54 60 GRAINS UNIQUE, 1000 GRAINS SPHERICAL BALL AVERAGE FPS: 1397 MUZZLE ENERGY: 4335 MKO: 174.6 RECOIL VELOCITY: 14.26 RECOILENERGY: 53.73 70 GRAINS UNIQUE, 1000 GRAINS SPHERICAL BALL AVERAGE FPS: 1528 MUZZLE ENERGY: 5186 MKO: 191 RECOIL VELOCITY: 15.78 RECOIL ENERGY: 65.8 CONICAL 70 GRAINS BLUE DOT, 1620 GRAINS CONICAL AVERAGE FPS: 1257 MUZZLE ENERGY: 5685 MKO: 254.5 RECOIL VELOCITY: 20.5 RECOIL ENERGY: 106.24 _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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_______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Cal, thank you for posting this data. Very interesting. I am amazed at the vast difference in recoil between black and NFB. I hope you post some other calibers, especially 577 BPE. Larry | |||
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Larry: I have sold 4 .577bpe from my collection. One remains and I will load for it and try to get the data out within a week or so. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Was able to shoot the Rodda on Saturday! First, 150grs of FF was almost mundane. About the same felt recoil as my 12b with 100grs. I didn't chronograph anything but did work up to a 240gr charge which was still quite manageable. Gallon jugs at 25yds was easy but I have been advised to use a thicker patch to improve accuracy at which point I will put it on paper and report back. | |||
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Gents: Here is the .577 bpe data. I only shoot 3F now in everything from small express rifles to the largest 4-bore. And, only Swiss or Olde Eynesford as the velocity is superior to GOEX. Last night I sold my remaining stock of 2F (9 cans) to a mate. The Lab Radar is a great invention!! Cheers, Cal .577X3” MANTON BPE, 1890 26” BARRELS, RIFLE WEIGHT OF 11 POUNDS. LAB RADAR VELOCITY ON HANDGUN SETTING NOTES: MUZZLE AND RECOIL VELOCITIES ARE IN FEET PER SECOND MUZZLE AND RECOIL ENERGY ARE IN FOOT POUNDS RECOIL CALCULATIONS FROM: SHOOTERSCALCULATOR.COM MKO FROM JOHN TAYLOR’S KNOCK OUT VALUE ALL CALCULATIONS FROM 6-SHOT STRINGS I. BLACK POWDER 165 GRAINS 3F SWISS, 650 GRAINS LEAD BULLET AVERAGE FPS: 1589 MUZZLE ENERGY: 3645 MKO: 86.17 RECOIL VELOCITY: 24.13 RECOIL ENERGY: 99.52 II. SMOKELESS POWDER 65 GRAINS IMR 4198, 650 GRAINS LEAD BULLET AVERAGE FPS: 1561 MUZZLE ENERGY: 3517 MKO: 84.65 RECOIL VELOCITY: 17.4 RECOIL ENERGY: 51.74 75 GRAINS IMR 4198, 650 GRAINS LEAD BULLET AVERAGE FPS: 1732 MUZZLE ENERGY: 4331 MKO: 93.92 RECOIL VELOCITY: 19.49 RECOIL ENERGY: 64.94 _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Interesting, every load has the same gas efflux velocity. Methinks the formula may be wrong. | |||
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Go into detail, please. I know nothing about this and just found the formula on the internet. I seek knowledge in my ballistic work with the old doubles. Thanks for your post, just elaborate, please. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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The momentum of the recoiling gun equals the momentum of the ejecta, in this case the bullet and powder gases. Using your 8 bore load of a 1000 grain ball at 1467 f/s using 275 grains of powder. the momentum of the rifle is 23.88 x 17 x 7000 or 2841720 (the 7000 just converts the weight into grains). The momentum of the bullet is 1467 x 1000 or 1467000. That's a difference of 1374720 If the powder gases have an efflux velocity of 5000 f/s then they would have 275 x 5000 or 1375000, and that, together with the momentum of the bullet, gives the momentum of the gun and the recoil velocity according to that formula. That's fine, IF THE POWDER GASES ALWAYS LEAVE THE MUZZLE AT THAT VELOCITY. They don't, and there's the problem. Use that formula, which I have seen and played with, and you'll find that the gases from a .41 rimfire pistol leave the muzzle at the same speed as those from a .220 Swift. The efflux velocity depends on the pressure at the instant the bullet leaves the barrel, the powder charge, bore area, and probably what the firer had for lunch. We know the gases overtake the bullet, so they're faster, but two different loads will give two different velocities. There is only one sure way to measure free recoil, and that's with having the gun mounted like a pendulum and either measuring how far it swings back or using some form of chronograph to measure the speed. Hatchers notebook has an article on recoil that is well worth reading. A friend, sadly no longer with us, had an 8 bore double, and I sent many 3 ounce bullets downrange with it at Bisley, in the UK. Hope this helps, I'm better at explaining things to myself than I am to thers. | |||
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Quite interesting. Appreciate the data. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Interesting. I have seen the gas velocity for smokeless powder listed between 5000 and 6000 fps but I have never seen any mention of the velocity for black powder. I would assume it is quite a bit lower. That could be tricky to measure, maybe very high speed photography? C.G.B. | |||
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Cal, thanks for sharing your hard-won data. You must have had a steel shoulder insert implanted years ago! There is a chap who shoots at our range who uses a Labradar chronograph and it is indeed impressive to a guy like me who still shoots over a 30-year-old Oehler. I wish I had taken chronograph readings when I was shooting a Pedersoli Kodiak in .72. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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