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Having been frustrated with poor local quality of gunsmith skills, and the cost of shipping to a welding gunsmith, I am going to ask a local skilled welder to do the work for me. I have a Brownells heat sink and insulating paste. I even have some extra bolts for practice. I need advice on electric and gas welding techniques to weld on a complete new handle, to bend a bolt down and forward, and welding on round knobs onto bolt handles with a flat-bottomed knob. What is the best rod to use and any other techniques you recommend? Thanks Allan Quick, Cheap, or Good: Pick Two | ||
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Forget about electric and gas welders; that is from the last century. No one forges bolts any more either; TIG everything on; much safer, less heat migration and easier to control. No rods; the only rod is the steel filler metal you get at the local welding supply store. Get a TIG welder. Cut off and weld back on, if needed. Having used the old methods, I now only TIG thing. Except WW2 Jeep bodies, in which case, I MIG. | |||
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Great all-around advice on bolt handles. I've repaired more mig welding jobs and forging jobs than I care to count. Tig is clean and easy to control. Like Dpcd mentioned, filler rod is all that's needed.
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And argon! And any 12 year old can do it. It does take a bit of coordination; you will use both hands and one foot on the pedal; like flying a helicopter. Sort of. | |||
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I don’t like paying to have something done twice. That’s why I had dpcd replace the bolt handle on an FN Mauser.  | |||
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The welding ain't the hard part, it's the cleanup and profiling afterward. Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Cusom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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True; another reason to use TIG; much less cleanup because you can melt, and make metal appear precisely where you want it. | |||
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There is no question that TIG is the best way to do it. Nonetheless, I still weld with oxy-acetylene or MIG. It works the same as it did 45 years ago. I'm too old to spend the money for a TIG outfit now. I have a lot of other things to spend money on. Regards, Bill | |||
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I can relate. Even though I'm in the metal business large tool purchases need to pay for themselves if you're at retirement age. I wanted a plasma cutter for quite some time until I had a job come up that paid for it at once. My mig welder as well. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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Tig burns hotter than Mig, has less penetration, and more of a chance of contamination. Very few can even run a decent bead with Tig and manipulate the piece being welded at the same time. For someone that has done all there isn't really all that much different between them. Me if I had to make sure something had to be actually bomb proof, it would be done with stick. Controlling the heat and cooling, and of course distortion is where its at. Phil | |||
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Hmmm; using TIG and MIG, at least weekly, and no longer using stick because it is not precise enough, I don't agree. I might be missing something; I welcome anyone to come over and show me how bad TIG is. Less penetration? Not with the one I have. | |||
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I would suggest getting a pair of cheap needle nose vice grip pliers. Modify them to work as a jig that lets you clamp the handle to the body and function test in the receiver. At least with r700 stuff, getting the handle timed properly with good extraction cam etc. is a big part of doing the job. Get it positioned how you want, put on a TIG tack, check it with the receiver again, then wrap the nose in a wet rag and weld out the handle. 2¢ | |||
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Ok, they make jigs that hold the bolt and handle together so you can tack them on, then remove it and finish the weld. Mauser bolts are nothing like Remington bolt handles.; yes, those are tricky. If you need to wrap your bolt nose in wet rags you are putting way to much heat into it. | |||
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A 12 year old can drag a TiG torch around but most "welders" are not welders at any age ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Phil, I will disagree. If I have a bolt job done or other small items done I want a qualified micro tig person. One of the very best is Dan Armstrong at www.accu-tig.com. He has probably done more bolt handle jobs that the next 3 0r 4 guys put together. | |||
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I disagree too, but the micro TIG thing is not required. Standard TIG is super precise; plenty for a bolt handle. If I can do it, most anyone can. | |||
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Tom, I won't disagree with you on the tig subject, I just like Dan's work and his experience. | |||
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Dan does like to play 20 questions, and be a dick on the e-mail correspondence. I like getting along with people. You are a better man than I am Butch.  | |||
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I've had the same experience with the guy. Sent him a Mauser bolt one time and he returned it to me with a nasty note saying he wouldn't work on stuff that came from CA. Good to hear from you, Charlie. Hope you are doing well. | |||
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Hanging in there. Trimming all my stuff (that own's me now). It's been a while, but I loved my time in the Humboldt area. | |||
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Saw a bolt welding jig many years ago that Ted Blackburn made up..I copied it..you can see it on my website. Works great! | |||
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And I copied Duane’s, and it works great too! John Farner If you haven't, please join the NRA! | |||
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I am curious about the OP's comment about shipping cost. A bolt handle will fit in a priority small flat rate mail box. $16 round trip. Seems pretty reasonable to me. Mike  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I guess no old welders out there using a quality drag rod. 3/32 7024 low temp rod, flat position set in a table mounted jig just turn by it by hand and quench. Tig without a jig, one that shields the shielding gas from escape. Well should try the rod sometime. Any of you guy's ever cut or bend to shape rod to get into tight places while welding laying flat on your back trying your best to get in under a machine base or tank structure? Phil | |||
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I do a lot of hobbyist level metal fab, and arc weld most of that. Arc welding is poor choice for very short welds. By the time the rod gets up to temp, stabilizes and flows well it is time to stop. Yes you can get the rod flowing on a piece of scrap and jump to your work. But why? Tig is precise, no spatter, no slag, and far more controllable. They used to arc weld with uncoated electrodes, why not go back to that? lol | |||
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Phil, I believe the folks are looking for a nice professional job and not a tank welder. A good micro tig welder is very reasonable and their work is great. | |||
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Have to know how to weld before you can get that good job. But I wasn't offering anyway! As for being old school, NO. Just capable and don't limit myself to any one system. Probably welding before most here was born, grew up with it and worked with it. When you can weld on a 10 million machine at one of many aircraft plants, you can talk about rifles.
I'm glad I didn't know that in more than 60 years of welding... Phil | |||
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Well now you do.  Sounds you need to take that 60 years of pipe welding experience to all the custom gunmakers who tig their bolt handles on and Ruger who tig welds up a plug weld in the back of every #1 breach block and tell them they are all wrong. That archy, sparky, splattery stick is the way to go. lol It would be nice too if you would post up some threads of your gunsmithing work using stick to weld on bolt handles, shorten actions, weld on squarebridges, fill in thumbcuts, add on blind hole tangs and such. Since you have 'done it all". This being a gunsmithing forum and we are here to learn. | |||
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Mike, A pro will not just weld on a new bolt handle unless he's darn sure the owner knows how to properly make the new mortise in the action Pretty important pat of he job...So...yes, there would be more cost than just sending along the bolt. | |||
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Good point Duane, I have run into a few like that when trying to convert to lever type safeties. Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Cusom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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Duane, Good point about just shipping the bolt, but for the current Zastavas I need the bottom flat part of the knob built up and rounded and the handle bent straight. I want the handle to fit the receiver properly and the handle to tuck down tight. That means the receiver must be relieved a little. So I have to ship both receiver and bolt and that means the welder must have an FFL. The local guy has an FFL and he did a very nice job. I think he charged me $125 for building up the flat knob, polishing and bending it and polishing the entire bolt. What are typical prices for similar work from other people? Quick, Cheap, or Good: Pick Two | |||
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I am getting confused. Does the local FFL (gunsmith) do a good job or not? Or is it really about trying to save a buck and training a welder (non gunsmith) to do the work? | |||
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Sounds like a backward ass way of doing things. Much easier and less constraints to just weld on a proper handle.  Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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Yes sir, a proper bolt handle. | |||
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The average Mauser DIY'er scenario- Pkge arrives No correspondence/call/e-mail No Funds No decision in regards to- Length Angle Knob shape Handle perpendicular or swept configuration. Receiver/Handle clearance compliance. If you're lucky,a hand written note stating: Configure for low scope mount w/e-mail &/or 'phone number if question(s) arise. craigster- Heed the above; Glad the note got your panties in a knot-10yrs ago. By choice- I actually prefer to accomplish precision welding over 19th Century Blacksmith/Mauser work. | |||
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Well, maybe that explains your demeanor.  | |||
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Doug, Irregardless of your or anybody else's opinion, Dan is the best and has done more bolt handles than all on this forum put together. I understand that some clients are va real pain in the ass. | |||
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Butch, I am not a pain in the ass customer. I get along fine with the gunsmiths I deal with, and communicate clearly about what I want done. I asked Dan to weld one of Duane Weibe's bolt knobs on a VZ24 Mauser. After three of the rudest e-mails that I've ever received in my life, I suddenly remembered that I had tried to use his services in 2004, and had been treated shabbily then. Dan, I'm sorry that you have had clueless customers, I dealt with that a lot as an emergency physician (especially in Alaska in the 1990s). Totally aside from being hard done by by some of your customers, I believe you need professional help with your personality issues. | |||
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lawndart, "I asked Dan to weld one of Duane Weibe's bolt knobs on a VZ24 Mauser". Your above quote was nothing more than a D.Talley $5.00 handle w/the round bar stock milled to square to BS the Mauser clowns & is of 1018 free machining steel,not 4130/4140 Moly. The only issues in 40 years dealing w/DIY'ers are the IGNORANT individuals that believe that I have to work on their JUNK. Emergency situations under duress are a totally different scenario than expecting someone to stop the world turning to fix/alter their C&R scrap metal. | |||
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If you need an excellent welder who has customer service skills, try Peter Nagel at restorative welding: http://restorativewelding.com/...welding/Welcome.html Pete has been welding on guns and blades since the 70's and has done many bolt handles for me. He knows metallurgy inside and out and your bolt will return with the cocking notch still hard. Besides all that, Pete is a hell of a nice guy. Steve | |||
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