When FN produced their commercial bolt with the swept back bolt handle was that just a military straight bolt altered to swept back or a completely different forging?

I have a couple of uncompleted FN commercial receivers from Sarco back in the day, they have the stripper clip hump (no slot) so I assume they just used the a military forging and milled the hump off for a commercial.

Not sure how they did the bolts.

They are welded on. I have heard of a void inside them It is the same bolt. That is undocumented.
Why does it matter?

Because I am interested in the manufacturing process and history and it has always been a bit fuzzy to me the actual differences between FN military and commercial.

Often you read claims that the commercial had tighter tolerances and better finish, but I suspect both versions were made with the same steel, same heat treatment (which evolved), same forging dies, and on the same machinery.

The fork in manufacturing was whether it was thumbcut, stripper cut and had the bolt handle cut off and a swept back welded on.

By the time FN went with the double cut breeching collar were they even making military 98s with a single cut anymore?

Supposedly FN started the H ring in 1948; all the FN commercial actions I have here are H. I have an FN 1950 military action here somewhere and when I find it I will report what it is. The last FN military rifle was made in 1964 and I can't imagine they were using a C ring when the H had to be cheaper to make.
As far as manufacturing differences in commercial and military FNs; I never noticed any difference in fit or finish; military rifles of the period were very well finished. And many were painted black; the ones used by Belgium and The Netherlands were. L and W crest; king Leupold and Queen Wilhelmina.

I have an FN that was a 30-06 mil. It has an Imperial crown over an L over ABL and 1951.
It's an H ring. Very nicely made, it has a 35 whelen Imp barrel on it now .... need to finally finish that rifle!

That pretty much says it all. If they made them for Belgium with the H ring then they made them all that way. That is the Belgium 1950 model.
For the Armée Belgique Leger. Someting like that.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Supposedly FN started the H ring in 1948; all the FN commercial actions I have here are H. I have an FN 1950 military action here somewhere and when I find it I will report what it is. The last FN military rifle was made in 1964 and I can't imagine they were using a C ring when the H had to be cheaper to make.

and

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
I have an FN that was a 30-06 mil. It has an Imperial crown over an L over ABL and 1951.
It's an H ring. Very nicely made, it has a 35 whelen Imp barrel on it now .... need to finally finish that rifle!

See, I did not know they ever made military versions with the H ring.
Or when they ended military production.
Thanks!

It has a little notch in the front ring, and a 3.4" mag box to fit 30-06 ammo.

Anecdotal at best; I have a commercial FN stamped 1950 in a cartouche below the front ring that is a C ring. It was imported by Firearms International and has the FI insignia across the front ring.

quote:

uncompleted FN commercial receivers from Sarco

i have a sim memory of these NOT being heat treated - i could be wrong.


the H torque face receiver is easier to machine than the C torque face receiver , something about easier/faster to machine the inside bolt rail.. again, from memory, i could be wrong

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

uncompleted FN commercial receivers from Sarco

i have a sim memory of these NOT being heat treated - i could be wrong.


the H torque face receiver is easier to machine than the C torque face receiver , something about easier/faster to machine the inside bolt rail.. again, from memory, i could be wrong

Correct not heat treated and requiring minor machining and lots of finishing.

The H can be cut with broaches, the C requires the left blind lugway to be shaved with a single point tool going back and forth a billion times.

That machine is a shaper.
I did find m 1950 FN ABL action; H cut.
That FI action must/might have been the last C cut.

If you are wanting to create a FN style bolt this might make a good handle donor:

https://www.sarcoinc.com/fn-mauser-belgian-bolts/

It also suggests FN was making up the bolts from at least two parts. Not a one-piece forging.

Those are .715 OD and do not have guide ribs; not sure what they were for. I buy them by the dozen for the handles.

In the early 1960's, I visited a surplus arms importer warehouse, I can't remember which one, in New York City. There was at least one case of unissued FN Dutch Police Carbines with 18 inch barrels in 8x57 JS. Asking price was $60. Finish was blued. Some crests were J for Queen Juliana. Others were W for Queen Wilhelmina.

Those were the days.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
If you are wanting to create a FN style bolt this might make a good handle donor:

https://www.sarcoinc.com/fn-mauser-belgian-bolts/

It also suggests FN was making up the bolts from at least two parts. Not a one-piece forging.

Doubtful they would have made a entire oddball bolt just to cut the handle off and weld it on a 98.

But I bought a few and they did make a cool coat rack.

Or course not; they were for some other rifle; not a 98.

OK we covered the bolt.

Any info to support the claim that later FN commercial and military mausers were made from 4140 or some other alloy instead of low/med carbon steel and case hardened?

quote:

Originally posted by vangulik:
In the early 1960's, I visited a surplus arms importer warehouse, I can't remember which one, in New York City. There was at least one case of unissued FN Dutch Police Carbines with 18 inch barrels in 8x57 JS. Asking price was $60. Finish was blued. Some crests were J for Queen Juliana. Others were W for Queen Wilhelmina.

Those were the days.

Since you are tormenting us with prices from the past.

Wow, I’ll take a dozen.

They were low carbon steel, not 4140.

Polish 'em up, they'll make!

I have a FN Mauser made in Leige.
.375 H&H, was Dad's. Uncle was stationed
there and shipped it home for Dad I think in '62 as he retired in 'fall of '63 and the folks drove
to AK, uncle flew up and they hunted moose.

It's handy if you want to know the markings I
don't have a way to send pics unless by txt to
dpcd.
Nice looking rifle, blued too.

George

quote:

Originally posted by Fal Grunt:
They were low carbon steel, not 4140.

What do you mean by 'they'?

Those unfinished FN receivers I have pictured? Yes they are.

All FN produced mausers?

Because I asked up the thread,
"Any info to support the claim that later FN commercial and military mausers were made from 4140 or some other alloy instead of low/med carbon steel and case hardened?"

So I am unclear about your reply.

thanks Doug

quote:

Originally posted by georgeld:
Polish 'em up, they'll make!

I am thinking about shortening at least one, maybe all.

Without all that excess carbon from being case hardened they should be easier to weld hopefully without those nasty carbon inclusions that like to form.

I have acquired a small stash of FN auctioned rifles sold by Sears and Montgomery Wards and only have one with the C ring and it's dated 1948.

Those bolt bodies offered by Sarco look like the push feed bolts Browning changed to in about 1967. The bolt head was secured by a cross pin, and had a plunger ejector and extractor in the bolt head.

Talk abut a giant leap backward!

The FN bolt handle is (in my opinion) butt ugly and I replaced many...always found a void in the weld

quote:

Originally posted by Doug W:

quote:

Originally posted by Fal Grunt:
They were low carbon steel, not 4140.

"later FN commercial and military mausers"

thanks Doug

That is not to say that they are not... but I have never seen documentation that implies or explicitly states that they are. All documentation and references I have seen point to low carbon. I am sure over the years the alloy changed...