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Sirs
I´ve being shooting in 300 mts competitions with Sniper type rifles , ie Sako TRG , Steyr SSG etc.
Groups are in 45 mm average, to those who are on the first places.
Main caliber is 260 Remington, but there are some 243 Winchester as well, like my Steyr SSG04.
The competition is to shoot three five shot groups and calculate the average of them.
My question is the following:
I normally have one or two flyers in my groups, that enlarge them.
Those flyers are because , cases , primers ?
In your experience , what is the main factor that produce those flyers .
What thing have I to take care to minimize flyers.
Thank you for your coments.
 
Posts: 66 | Location: Montevideo,URUGUAY | Registered: 14 November 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have always considered flyers the real group size of my load and I go back to basics if that happens. I look at bedding, barrel floating on the rifle—which normally I have already taken care of, but mostly it’s just load development work.
 
Posts: 3701 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 27 May 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Do your flyers show a pattern? Are they consistently vertical or horizontal?

When I get tired or recoil sensitive I will start pulling shots low and right consistently. I know that it's me pushing too hard on the buttstock.


Frank



"I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money."
- Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953

NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite

 
Posts: 12501 | Location: Kentucky, USA | Registered: 30 December 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'd suggest shooting ammo in ten shot groups. Then you'll know if you have fliers or just an accuracy problem with that load.

5 fliers out of 10 is a problem.

1 flier out of 10 is probably not a problem.
 
Posts: 7763 | Location: Das heimat! | Registered: 10 October 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The bullets you use can also be the cause. Half a grain difference between bullets is not a problem and if the noses of the bullets are not identical or skew it will open the group slightly but, if the bases of the bullets are marked in any way, you have lost before you started. See this page.
 
Posts: 2848 | Registered: 12 August 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Like WWW I question your comment about 5 shot groups with one or two flyers. They aren't flyers! That is the group size for your gun with that ammo! There is a reason that the NRA shoots 5, 10 shot groups in their rifle tests (as I recollect), and why lots of the rifles they test, even the "target" ones, are "just" MOA.
To echo Gerard's comment about bullet bases, the NRA did a test many years ago, dropping bullets on a steel plate, noses down, and then bases down. Having established accuracy standards for that bullet, load and rifle, the bullets dropped on their bases showed a significant decrease in accuracy, much more so than bullets dropped on their noses.
So, by all means examine bullets, cases, chamfer cases necks, uniform primer pockets etc. Some of the benchrest tricks might help you, but some of them may be superfluous depending on the accuracy potential of your rifle. Shooting technique will also be a major factor, especially when shooting from a bipod.
Just my 2 cents.
Gerard, where are you these days?
Peter


Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
 
Posts: 10505 | Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Registered: 09 January 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Somchem (a ballistic lab in South Africa) did a similar test. After establishing accuracy with a rifle and a group of components, they snipped the noses off a group of bullets with a sidecutter and scratched the bases of another group of bullets, with a sharp object. The control group of ammunition shot into one inch at 100 while the ammunition with the bullets with the cut noses, shot a little more than a two inch group. The ammunition with the bullets with scratched bases went into four inches.

Peter, we have a factory in Charleston SC. GSC was aquired by CheyTac and we consolidated the factories, that were spread all over the USA, to one facility in Charleston SC.

My wife Elmarie has joined me and we got permanent residence in the USA. The next step is Citizenship but we have to wait a couple of years for that.
 
Posts: 2848 | Registered: 12 August 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Good to hear Gerard. If you ever pass through Jacksonville Fl. let me know, perhaps we can meet up somewhere for lunch or a drink! I still have some of your bullets (from RSA)!
Peter.


Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
 
Posts: 10505 | Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Registered: 09 January 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Weight sorting after nose uniforming and ogive measuring work best for me along with the other BR tuning tricks system and cases. Ogives can be off by several thou...usually 2-5 bullets per box and weights up to 15 gr. I don't measure bullet OAL's anymore, just uniformly trim noses to some arbitrary OAL, usually a few thou shorter than the shortest measured bullet...the new tools make it MUCH easier than in the old days.

Try it first before you laugh. Weight sort, nose trim, measure ogives and get the bullets as uniform as you can in separate piles and fire a group...THEN...take a few with mixed longer/shorter ogives and fire them....if your rifle and you are up to it you will see the variation in group size.

If you want to really see what variation is ogive measure a full box of bullets...NOT CUSTOM or CNC bullets...they are usually exceedingly uniform in all dimensions....use available factory brands. I've measured 3 different ogive measurements in one box of "Match" bullets...normally there are only one or two and depending on when/where the bullets were boxed during the bullet making run I've gotten only one sometimes and 10-11 at other times. These bullets come at a point where something in the building components has changed and the quality control has gone out of spec.

AS long as I shoot the bullets by ogive measurement groups the dispersion isn't anything significant...I get bugholes for ALL bullet groups.

Bullet weights can be variable due to differences in the metal composition or tiny voids which can set up an instability that causes the bullet to yaw.

Not many except target shooters care to go through this much troubles and this works even in the largest calibers, but who wants to go through all that pain to gain a bit of accuracy when 1 minute of animal is all that is needed.

Primers are a big source of variation in accuracy and group size. For all my rifles that have been tuned for max accuracy I only use BR type primers and whatever brand shows the highest potential...PER RIFLE and caliber...BR primers USUALLY give the highest accuracy, but NOT always What brand works best is rifle dependent...DON'T ask me why. A bad primer can cause a flier just as well as any of the other things.

One major problem with trying to understand fliers is once the round is fired ALL the components are destroyed/changed in some way and you can't dissect a hole ion the paper. It could have been the primer, the case, the bullet, the powder amount, the shooter or a bug got in the way...it also can be the barrel vibration node just slightly off or the bag settled at the wrong time...or the Devil was just messing with you...hard to diagnose.

A case can be the problem but because any imperfections in the case walls is difficult to diagnose unless you mark the case as to position and shoot it in that position every time. If you keep getting a flier hitting rear there same point every time, you might just eliminate that case for one group to see if you get a hit at the same point...if not you have you culprit.

I could buy a very expensive, fancy-shmancy double rifle for the cost of components and time I've burned up to find just 10 cases that shot into one hole, consistently. Things have changed for the better in today's world...not as hard to find that consistent "bughole" accuracy with today's components, rifles and reloading tools...plus all the information on the net.

LUCK beer
 
Posts: 1211 | Registered: 25 January 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
Weight sorting after nose uniforming and ogive measuring work best for me along with the other BR tuning tricks system and cases. Ogives can be off by several thou...usually 2-5 bullets per box and weights up to 15 gr. I don't measure bullet OAL's anymore, just uniformly trim noses to some arbitrary OAL, usually a few thou shorter than the shortest measured bullet...the new tools make it MUCH easier than in the old days.

Try it first before you laugh. Weight sort, nose trim, measure ogives and get the bullets as uniform as you can in separate piles and fire a group...THEN...take a few with mixed longer/shorter ogives and fire them....if your rifle and you are up to it you will see the variation in group size.

If you want to really see what variation is ogive measure a full box of bullets...NOT CUSTOM or CNC bullets...they are usually exceedingly uniform in all dimensions....use available factory brands. I've measured 3 different ogive measurements in one box of "Match" bullets...normally there are only one or two and depending on when/where the bullets were boxed during the bullet making run I've gotten only one sometimes and 10-11 at other times. These bullets come at a point where something in the building components has changed and the quality control has gone out of spec.

AS long as I shoot the bullets by ogive measurement groups the dispersion isn't anything significant...I get bugholes for ALL bullet groups.

Bullet weights can be variable due to differences in the metal composition or tiny voids which can set up an instability that causes the bullet to yaw.

Not many except target shooters care to go through this much troubles and this works even in the largest calibers, but who wants to go through all that pain to gain a bit of accuracy when 1 minute of animal is all that is needed.

Primers are a big source of variation in accuracy and group size. For all my rifles that have been tuned for max accuracy I only use BR type primers and whatever brand shows the highest potential...PER RIFLE and caliber...BR primers USUALLY give the highest accuracy, but NOT always What brand works best is rifle dependent...DON'T ask me why. A bad primer can cause a flier just as well as any of the other things.

One major problem with trying to understand fliers is once the round is fired ALL the components are destroyed/changed in some way and you can't dissect a hole ion the paper. It could have been the primer, the case, the bullet, the powder amount, the shooter or a bug got in the way...it also can be the barrel vibration node just slightly off or the bag settled at the wrong time...or the Devil was just messing with you...hard to diagnose.

A case can be the problem but because any imperfections in the case walls is difficult to diagnose unless you mark the case as to position and shoot it in that position every time. If you keep getting a flier hitting rear there same point every time, you might just eliminate that case for one group to see if you get a hit at the same point...if not you have you culprit.

I could buy a very expensive, fancy-shmancy double rifle for the cost of components and time I've burned up to find just 10 cases that shot into one hole, consistently. Things have changed for the better in today's world...not as hard to find that consistent "bughole" accuracy with today's components, rifles and reloading tools...plus all the information on the net.

LUCK beer


This sounds like a horrible amount of time & trouble and IT'S EXACTLY WHAT I DO when I really want something to shoot well!!!

Otherwise, enjoy your flyers.

Zeke
 
Posts: 2269 | Registered: 27 October 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You did not mention using a chronograph while shooting.
Peter.


Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
 
Posts: 10505 | Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Registered: 09 January 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yeah...fliers are a fact of life because NO ONE wants to do that kind of work just for wasting sageratz or sticking some eating beasty...this stuff is ONLY for those that DON'T WANT FLIERS...and like to hit those tiny critters that hawks have a hard time seeing, with equipment that keeps those 1000 yd flies azzes boarded up with Kevlar. shocker lol Roll Eyes

Most of the case prep work can be done while watching a ball game or vids and only needs done once...the same with the sorting...I do most of it while watching vids in the winter when the snow is belly deep to a tall giraffe...some while eating or just watching critters in my yard become targets.

I didn't mention a TON of "STUFF" and I use TWO chrono's one behind the other, that goes without saying, and average the results only if I want velo data...unless the bullets are bugholing the velo data isn't much good...along with the SD data...all that can be roughly inferred from the load data or from the software, basically only becoming useful once the load is developed for calculating drop/windage. Chrono's are just another tool and unless you understand what the data is actually telling you it can lead to spurious deductions.

I had the first and only chrono, an Oehler 33, way back when and for probably 15 years before the next one showed up back in the day. Yah got about 70umpteen more pages you want to read and all the stories of pain and suffering that goes along with them, from the late 50's when I first started this game...

I didn't think so...besides just search AR...it's ALL there...somewhere... tu2 rotflmo

LUCK beer
 
Posts: 1211 | Registered: 25 January 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Good heavens! I am nowhere near as sophisticated as you. I use the chrono and when I get a flyer I check the velocity. If it is outside the SD then I have a strong suspicion that I should look no further than the ammo. If it is within the SD then I suspect my shooting, the rifle (ie. that is as good as it gets) or the wind conditions.
Peter


Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
 
Posts: 10505 | Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Registered: 09 January 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Not a bench rest shooter striving for the smallest possible group. Shoot primarily Long Range NRA type matches and goal is to shoot as many X's and 10's as possible in prone w/sling and micrometer sight system, no optics. Use exclusively Lapua brass, SMK bullets, Fed. 210M primers and with 308 primarily IMR 4064 powder. Range of targets from 600 to 1000yds. Bullet selection is either SMK 155 Palma or SMK 190's, depends on the wind conditions during match day. As for fliers, believe in my case they are brought about by me, not the loads or the rifle, just me and not braking the shot as I should. You will know if the shot is a good one or bad one at the moment you break the trigger, if not you have not shot enough and unable to decipher the wind conditions and make correct adjustment on the sight. The absolute finest reloads possible will not show up on the target face without skilled hands holding the rifle. Trim brass if needed, clean primer pocket, deburr case mouth out and in, seat bullet to suit your chamber/throat, accurate powder measurement, and the rest is up to the trigger puller.
 
Posts: 1050 | Location: S.Charleston, WV | Registered: 18 June 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Instructor:
Not a bench rest shooter striving for the smallest possible group. Shoot primarily Long Range NRA type matches and goal is to shoot as many X's and 10's as possible in prone w/sling and micrometer sight system, no optics. Use exclusively Lapua brass, SMK bullets, Fed. 210M primers and with 308 primarily IMR 4064 powder. Range of targets from 600 to 1000yds. Bullet selection is either SMK 155 Palma or SMK 190's, depends on the wind conditions during match day. As for fliers, believe in my case they are brought about by me, not the loads or the rifle, just me and not braking the shot as I should. You will know if the shot is a good one or bad one at the moment you break the trigger, if not you have not shot enough and unable to decipher the wind conditions and make correct adjustment on the sight. The absolute finest reloads possible will not show up on the target face without skilled hands holding the rifle. Trim brass if needed, clean primer pocket, deburr case mouth out and in, seat bullet to suit your chamber/throat, accurate powder measurement, and the rest is up to the trigger puller.


When shooting from a proper benchrest doing load development at 100-200 yds, maybe even 300; the wind will rarely cause flyers. Reason being that unlike long range Highpower type shooting, you run each shot in the same wind condition. When looking for groups you aren’t as concerned about hitting X ring. It’s more important to run them in the same wind condition so you can evaluate the load. Also, while tight sling prone is a very stable shooting position, it still isn’t as stable as as proper bench rest setup. Meaning a proper bench rest eliminates more shooter error than tight sling prone.

In Highpower, picking the wind is critical because score is all that matters and the shooting at long range is slow enough that there is no guarantee that you can get all 20 shots in the same condition. One shot 6” out of the group isn’t so bad if all the rest are 10s and Xs.

So to sum up, the techniques that produce top scores in long range Highpower are the best techniques for evaluating loads during load development. They two completely different goals.

Like I posted early in the thread, my experience has been that flyers during load development are just the true size of the group and mean more the load isn’t there yet.
 
Posts: 3701 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 27 May 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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