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First shot hit percentages for big game hunting?
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Originally posted by 7mmfreak:
You sound like every BR shooter I've ever met.


That's probably because there is a ENORMOUS difference between someone who casually shoots from the bench and a serious 1000 yd BR competitor.
 
Posts: 3701 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 27 May 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by HPMaster:
"mid pack" in High power can mean anything from a 760 to a 600 ( out of 800) Tell us your score.

I know BR types that also are good at sling shooting, and sling shooters that are top flite BR and F classers, the fact is they are all very different disciplines and well, it takes discipline and commitment to excel at any or all, and no, simply breaking the shot if your sights ate where you want them won't bring you into the Master or better classes in HP- position is so much more important than just sight alignment/sight picture. If you argue that I know you are blowing smoke.


I found the data book from 10 years ago. My score was 693-7X. I can't find the score on the other match. While that is nowhere near Master or High Master or any help in earning DM, it was good enough to beat a bunch of guys that expected me to finish last and THAT is my only point in recounting that event--that disciplined bench skills provide a LOT of skill transfer to other shooting positions.

What I found hard about Highpower was focusing on the front sight of an AR at the end of the day for the 600 yd phase, and I also found the seated position VERY awkward. I also didn't get into as good of an "on-off-on" rhythm as I wanted to for standing. All those thing affected my sight control, which in turn effected my scores, which in turn makes me stand by my statement about sight control being the most important factor. Learning and becoming comfortable with the shooting positions enhance sight control, and if you dispute that, then I'll know YOU are full of BS. Eeker Big Grin Cool tu2

I was most comfortable with prone rapid fire at 300 yds where I scored 193-4X. I was also comfortable at 600 yds prone--being amazed at how steady the tight sling position was, but the front sight kept going blurry on me.

Now I agree it takes disciple and commitment to excel at ANY shooting discipline, whether it is LR BR, Trap, Highpower, Silhouette, or Practical Rifle. They are all different skill sets. I took me over a year of shooting frequently to START doing well at the club level in 1000 yd BR. ....and I finished last my first match in that game. That entire year I finished in the bottom half at each competition.

While I was deployed from Sep 2005 to Jan 2006 I had a new BR rifle built, and after about three months of load development and shooting I started doing very well. I shot five screamer groups that year (5-shots, 4" or better at 1000 yds), set two club agg records, tied the world record for score twice, shot small group of the match most of the time, and I have a whole box full of first place trophies for those efforts. The pic below is the first time I set the club agg record. 4.9" for three five shoot groups at 1000 yds. I doubt that is anywhere close to what their current club agg record is.

While I do respect the accomplishment of those who earn Master or High Master classifications and/or earn DM in Highpower; I take exception to those who diminish the skill and effort it takes to do well at 1000 yd BR. Interestingly, there were a couple of former Highpower shooters that would shoot 1K BR with us. I routinely beat those guys, mainly because their approach to accounting for wind in Highpower didn't work well in 1K BR, and they were not able to adapt.

I hope now we can stop comparing penises and get back to what looked to be a good thread, which has to do with long range hunting hit percentages and best practices for that type of hunting.

Blaine J. Painter, Maj, USAF, Ret
Command Pilot

 
Posts: 3701 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 27 May 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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What I found is that when one gets into the top one or two percent of shooters in any discipline.

They are very very good at the game they shoot.

But not all those skills do not always transfer to other games. So do some don't.

Placing a shot on game is easy for them if that shot is a lot like the game they play.

But it isn't I seen some very good shots miss game.

I have seen high end trap shooters only shoot once at game birds that flushed in the open then watch it fly away as they stood there with a semi auto.

I have seen high end hi power shooters miss fairly easy shots on moving game.

Each shooting sports require some of the same skills but each has enough different ones that it takes time to learn each sport.

No matter what one shoots they can all be fun.

The best practice for shooting game at longer ranges is to shoot at those ranges with your hunting rifle in all conditions.
 
Posts: 19314 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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What I read is that because you don't practice them you struggled with rapids, seated, and standing strings. Only your sight picture and trigger control transferred. Those things would affect your 1st round hit probability on game.
 
Posts: 518 | Registered: 28 November 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by 7mmfreak:
What I read is that because you don't practice them you struggled with rapids, seated, and standing strings. Only your sight picture and trigger control transferred. Those things would affect your 1st round hit probability on game.


Then we miscommunicated. My point was because it was THE FIRST TIME I tried it I was not comfortable with the seated position, focusing on the front sight on a short barreled rifle at the end of the day, and the rhythm for standing offhand. These items are very specific to Highpower and have ZERO effect on first round hits on game. When shooting game at long range I don't use iron sights, an uncomfortable seated position, or shoot offhand.

Saying "only sight picture and trigger control transferred" implies they are the least important aspects when they are the most important.

Now I am sure this doesn't apply to anyone here, but I have found many Highpower shooters think they know everything about marksmanship. I found 1K BR much more challenging as it had a MUCH higher accuracy requirement, was more interesting, less of a hassle, and the competitors weren't so sensitive. I'll need to keep that in mind as I look for a shooting competition to participate in again.

Merry Christmas!!!
 
Posts: 3701 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 27 May 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Placing a shot on game is easy for them if that shot is a lot like the game they play.


Exactly!! I'll go even further and suggest that if one has achieved a certain amount of success in a certain style of shooting competition, then use that in the field. I try to make every shot as much like a BR shot as I can, especially with longer range shots.
 
Posts: 3701 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 27 May 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by p dog shooter:
What I found is that when one gets into the top one or two percent of shooters in any discipline.

They are very very good at the game they shoot.

But not all those skills do not always transfer to other games. So do some don't.

Placing a shot on game is easy for them if that shot is a lot like the game they play.

But it isn't I seen some very good shots miss game.

I have seen high end trap shooters only shoot once at game birds that flushed in the open then watch it fly away as they stood there with a semi auto.

I have seen high end hi power shooters miss fairly easy shots on moving game.

Each shooting sports require some of the same skills but each has enough different ones that it takes time to learn each sport.

No matter what one shoots they can all be fun.

The best practice for shooting game at longer ranges is to shoot at those ranges with your hunting rifle in all conditions.


Training deficiencies are what you are talking about. You see these a lot. If you always do what you've always done you will continue to do just that. Innovation and variations are the key to growth. If you don't then you will stagnate.

The trap shooter that shoots once and watches a bird fly away is a victim of poor training just like the cop or soldier that trains controlled pairs because his idiot boss stresses it from ignorance and then dies because he didn't keep shooting when it mattered. That's one of my biggest peeves at work:range theatrics are not real training. Next time you are at the tame watch a guy with an AR or pistol and watch them shoot a round or two then come off their gun while doing something that "looks" tactical. They are training to fail and the same can be said for competitive disciplines.

Match shooters fall prey to the same. BR shooters are artificially supported and great at shooting groups with high standards. Makes sense since the gun is fully supported and highly stable. As a result a seated, kneeling, standing, or alt from an expedient support is not going to be natural and it might not occur to then to use it. Oddly enough I never find benches in the field. Palma, XC, HP, SR etc are going to be better at those disciplines because they can practice them but again very little practical (real life not match practical ) shooting is done from prone. Sitting and standing are more common and I have shot more game sitting with a sling or standing with a tripod than prone and have never shot a living thing from a bench.

Practical/PRS/etc shoot something different every stage. You might be shooting KD or UKD and it could be from any position. MIL/LEO matches are the only matches where I have shot movers. Guys usually struggle with that especially in LEO matches because short range movers are harder than long range movers due to FOV and the speed with which the target passes through your reticle.

I have a friend (who just won the Wimbledon Cup) that told me years ago that I couldn't take my sniping seriously if I didn't take my shooting seriously and you can't take your shooting seriously I'd you don't shoot competitively. That changes my life and I maintain that he is right. That said you have to ensure that your training is quality time spent on the gun or you end up good at one or two things and then building bad habits for a lot of other things.
 
Posts: 518 | Registered: 28 November 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by 7mmfreak:

Training deficiencies are what you are talking about. You see these a lot. If you always do what you've always done you will continue to do just that. Innovation and variations are the key to growth. If you don't then you will stagnate.

The trap shooter that shoots once and watches a bird fly away is a victim of poor training just like the cop or soldier that trains controlled pairs because his idiot boss stresses it from ignorance and then dies because he didn't keep shooting when it mattered. That's one of my biggest peeves at work:range theatrics are not real training. Next time you are at the tame watch a guy with an AR or pistol and watch them shoot a round or two then come off their gun while doing something that "looks" tactical. They are training to fail and the same can be said for competitive disciplines.

Match shooters fall prey to the same. BR shooters are artificially supported and great at shooting groups with high standards. Makes sense since the gun is fully supported and highly stable. As a result a seated, kneeling, standing, or alt from an expedient support is not going to be natural and it might not occur to then to use it. Oddly enough I never find benches in the field. Palma, XC, HP, SR etc are going to be better at those disciplines because they can practice them but again very little practical (real life not match practical ) shooting is done from prone. Sitting and standing are more common and I have shot more game sitting with a sling or standing with a tripod than prone and have never shot a living thing from a bench.

Practical/PRS/etc shoot something different every stage. You might be shooting KD or UKD and it could be from any position. MIL/LEO matches are the only matches where I have shot movers. Guys usually struggle with that especially in LEO matches because short range movers are harder than long range movers due to FOV and the speed with which the target passes through your reticle.

I have a friend (who just won the Wimbledon Cup) that told me years ago that I couldn't take my sniping seriously if I didn't take my shooting seriously and you can't take your shooting seriously I'd you don't shoot competitively. That changes my life and I maintain that he is right. That said you have to ensure that your training is quality time spent on the gun or you end up good at one or two things and then building bad habits for a lot of other things.


I guess I mostly agree--take that for what it's worth, but I find something very interesting. You mentioned earlier that I "sound like every BR shooter I've ever met". Did you ever wonder why that is? Why do we so universally reject the characterization that competitive benchrest shooting doesn't have a high amount of skill transfer to other types of shooting or the field?

Maybe it's because after we had gone through the discipline of developing our BR skills we found that ALL our shooting skills from All positions had significantly improved. I have provided examples of that in previous posts on this thread.

Concerning long range hunting, long range BR has one of the highest amounts of skill transfer. To be competitive in LR BR you need: a highly accurate rifle, clear and repeatable optics, an accurate and consistent load that you have to keep tweaking (and NOBODY makes more accurate or consistent loads than a LR BR shooter), a consistent and stable shooting position, extreme consistency in how you grip the rifle and pull the trigger, the ability to shoot through mirage, an understanding of the wind and how to adjust for it (you shoot for both groups AND score), an understanding of the relationship between BC and velocity, etc.

To transition to long range hunting, you take all the above skills and: learn to shoot from a bipod--took me one range session--and develop a drop/windage chart so you know how much to crank at various distances in varying conditions. Alternatively, they do make very stable portable rests that long range hunters often take into the field with them--you often can't shoot from prone in the field. True long range hunting (600+) usually means setting up in a position where you can glass multiple openings and shoot from a very stable position, and that means bringing the equipment to be able to do so.

Oh yeah, I find all kinds of rests to use in the field when hunting. A tree, a rock, a log, etc. Last year I set behind a rock then stacked on a small log and two backpacks in order to get steady enough for my 435 yd shot with my 7.5 lb rifle. I heavily used the skills I learned shooting 1000k BR. In this case, I could not get dead steady, but in 1K BR I became used to the center of the cross hairs (actually a dot) moving around. Yes, that is what you see though a 32x scope from a 15 lb rifle on extremely heavy and stable front and rear rests. The cross hairs--in this case the dot--describe a circular pattern on the target. It is NOT a "no movement" sight picture. The proper technique is to center the movement over the bull and the shoot. That is what I did on the deer at 435 and I made a clean hit.

BTW, I now carry a lightweight (less than a pound) folding tripod with me that allows for reasonable stability from a sitting position. It's much easier than rocks, logs, and backpacks; but then again that is more of a med-long range issue vs a true long range issue.

As to the skill transfer to long range hunting from other shooting disciplines, that varies a bit. I think a competition where you have to shoot past 600 yds is much more valuable than one where you don't. Now for 600 yds and under then Highpower (meaning the 200, 300, 600 yd version) has good transfer, IF you can get to a place to where you can shoot prone. The most useful thing I gained from Highpower methods was the short range offhand technique of on-off-on when you can't get a rest and are shooting between 100 and 200 yds. Under 100 yds I find snap shots--meaning you pull the trigger when you are first aligned on target--to be a better technique.

I won't speak to other styles of shooting competition since I have not done them, but I would think a centerfire Silhouette shooter would have incredible offhand skills at distances most of need to be rested. However, 500 meters doesn't meet the definition of true long range hunting.

One thing I COMPLETELY agree with is your friends assessment that "you can't take your shooting seriously I'd you don't shoot competitively." Maybe that is the unifying point here. The mental approach and discipline required to shoot competitively makes everyone a MUCH better shot than they were before.................
 
Posts: 3701 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 27 May 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have shot competitively I gave up competition as to excel in any one of them one needs to live it.

I have way to many fun things to do instead of only one thing.

I also found that some games impose safety or other rules that are down right dangerous or impractical in real life.

I have shot many tens of thousands of rounds in matches, training, practice and real life hunting/shooting situations. They are not always the same thing.

There can be a lot of over lap.
 
Posts: 19314 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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At least 90 percent between 400 and 750 yards for over 40 deer. If there is more than about 12 inches of estimated hold for wind,I just don't shoot.
 
Posts: 278 | Registered: 25 November 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'd say that falls into what I originally said: 400yds under difficult wind conditions and 600yds under easy conditions.
 
Posts: 518 | Registered: 28 November 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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We have no need to bring up body parts- I am sure yours is just fine.

Regarding sight picture & trigger control- I am sure we agree there more than not too. It is just that the integrated act of firing whatever discipline is just that- a comprhesive all-in act to get the bullet to the x ring, the boiler room, the clay, the center of the group whatever.

The neat thing I found about HP I that you get to do it 50 or 80 times....

Regards and thanks for your service.
 
Posts: 1082 | Location: MidWest USA  | Registered: 27 April 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by HPMaster:
We have no need to bring up body parts- I am sure yours is just fine.

Regarding sight picture & trigger control- I am sure we agree there more than not too. It is just that the integrated act of firing whatever discipline is just that- a comprhesive all-in act to get the bullet to the x ring, the boiler room, the clay, the center of the group whatever.

The neat thing I found about HP I that you get to do it 50 or 80 times....

Regards and thanks for your service.


LOL!!I think we agree WAY more than we disagree, but it's no fun agreeing all the time.
 
Posts: 3701 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 27 May 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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HP,
Thank you for yours too. I think we are on the same page. I shoot several disciplines but focus on PRS. I find anything but a table useful as a training aid.
 
Posts: 518 | Registered: 28 November 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by 7mmfreak:
I find anything but a table useful as a training aid.


Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
 
Posts: 3701 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 27 May 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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