Well Kyler I feel your pain!!!!
I know I should not get involved in this discussion because after a LOT
of shooting and 5 decades of hunting I have some insights that a lot of people don't feel all warm and fuzzy about.

1.the vast majority of us are highly over confident in our ability to precisely place a cold bore shot under field conditions in difficult atmospheric conditions at unknown distances on a neutral colored animal while excited.

2. The vast majority of hunters do not have access to a range that is over 200 yrds. They do their shooting from the bench and have no idea of what their actual cone of fire looks like from field positions past that range.

3.this is hunting not war. I am afraid the "tactical" aspects have become to0 important in this sport. Yes Warriors make insanely difficult shots some times but in war if a "tactical" shooter makes a hit around the edges of an enemy then ok! That will probably take that enemy out of the fight. Not so in a hunting environment. Hits that are not perfectly placed in the vitals lead to unnecessary suffering.

4. I have wondered for a long time, what is a realistic and humane distance to shoot from? This is the exercise I used to set my personal limits for deer hunting and I think is a very good one to give realistic yardages to shoot at.

200 shots fired.
20 shots at a time
10 sessions different days therefor different temps and winds

The session starts with one shot off the bench to make sure the rifle is still on, so there are no excuses. There are four targets. one each for standing kneeling sitting and prone

walk to 100 yards, tack the targets up and walk back fast to get heart rate up to simulate the excitement of the hunt, walking climbing etc.
shoot one shot standing. Walk quickly to the target and mark the shot. Walk back. Go into kneeling and shoot one shot and walk down and mark the shot. Repeat the drill with quickly getting into position and walking with sitting and prone.

this is done five cycles so that 20 shot are fired. At the end of the exercise the distance from the center of the aim point for each shot is measured and logged.

I did this over 10 sessions so that a total of 200 shots were fired.

when I ran the results through simple statistical analysis to give 2 standard deviations or a 95% probability that my bullet would hit in a six inch target zone , which I think is a good target area for small deer. The yardages were

Standing---- 62 yards
kneeling-----94
sitting------115
prone--------136

If I enlarged critical area to 8 inches with a 95% hit probability the yardages were

Standing----83 yards
kneeling----111
sitting----154
prone ---- 168
All in all not very far to have a 95% chance of making a great shot.

5. I just really don't see much reason for shooting at animals much past 200 yards except under extreme circumstance and then only by some one who has shot at least one barrel out of a rifle target practicing. Or an animal that is wounded and trying to get away.

6. I feel that the hunter who has done lots of shooting will be more than happy when he gets to camp to shoot his rifle and show that he can make hits of a paper plate size target at what ever range he is comfortable shooting at an animal.

7. A guide has the right as a professional to say to his hunter "No that is not a ethical shot for us to take. We must get closer or leave this animal.

OK. Rant off.

I am often at the range during hunting season. There are about 15% who sight in carefully and can hit the bullseye at 200 yards over a concrete rest with padded front rest. Most don't even shoot their rifle beyond 100 yards I suppose because they don't want to walk up to 200 yards). many of those cannot hit an 8 inch circle at 100 yards over a rest. I don't know how many will connect on their first shop in the field. I assume that the guys here because they are interested in the sport are much better than what I have witnessed. Myself I usually hit with first shot about 65 to 70 % of the time but often have use a 2nd shot to finish it off

further to my above post. In 54 years of hunting I have only wounded one animal, a white tail doe that got away, tracked her for 4 hours until after dark, but never didd find her.

I'm going to throw in another qualifier - the terrain !
To answer the question, I would say the shooter should - at whatever distance -have at least an 80% confidence level, and maybe up to 95% when the terrain works against you. In fairly open country where you can see (or track)where an animal goes, it's probably OK to go with a scenario of an almost sure thing. That translates, for me, at 80%. That moves up to a higher level when the distance is a long ways and it's difficult (1) to tell if the animal is hit hard or (2) to follow due to cover, draws, etc. It is not fun to take a marginal shot and then not be sure if you hit, where you hit, or where they went.

So along with wind (can be a BIG consideration), I would also add that the terrain should influence the confidence level needed to make a first shot hit in a vital area.

I have done my share of penance, walking after wounded game that actually wasn't. And of following wounded animals with a knot in my stomach. I do believe a "paper plate test" under field conditions is pretty useful for either a self-test or to evaluate someone else's capacity to do well (and enjoy the hunt).

By the way, thanks for a great post you started. And a great story to go with it. So, did I ever tell you about my 500 yard shot at a mountain zebra??? There I was with my trusty 308.....

Thanks for the comments and input guys. There are some interesting thoughts in these answers. Hopefully we here aren’t part of the problem of shooting farther than we’re honestly/ethically capable of.

This trend of tying military sniping with big game hunting is truly sad. They are very different, with very different purposes, and I guarantee it is causing damage to the sport of hunting.

I often wonder if it became more common in the USA to charge for wounded game, as is done in much of the rest of the world, if people wouldn’t be a bit more honest about their abilities in fear of it affecting their wallet. I’ve had international hunters lean over their gun and ask me in the heat of the moment if I charge for wounded game…. To me that means their money is more important than their ethics - but I guess that’s how some people will always be.

I’ve heard that it’s extremely difficult to complete the exams to get a hunting license in some countries. (All I had to do as a kid growing up in CA was to not blatantly point my rifle at my Hunter Safety instructor for a few minutes on a Saturday morning). Maybe hunters from other countries can chime in and let us know if they had to pass shooting tests before they could take to the fields after game.

While I hate to see more government regulation, maybe we as hunters could police ourselves better to make sure our young hunters, and other members of our hunting parties, are only taking shots they’re readily capable of making. (And not just winging bullets for the possible sake of bragging about being “a sniper”).

Els, I don’t know you, but I’ve got to say that’s one of the BEST posts I’ve EVER read on an internet forum.
Your practice and testing is extremely commendable and honest. Hunting would be much more respected if hunters could be honest and ethical enough to test and limit themselves as you’ve outlined. Unfortunately there are a lot of fragile egos among hunters that are too worried about bragging of their long range prowess than admitting that they are unnecessarily risking the wounding of game.
Thank you for your input and great ideas of testing procedures. If it makes you feel any better, the shooting students that I train for hunting are put through very similar paces. I use 4 targets at 100 yards, one for each shooting position, and we walk forward to mark the targets and discuss technique every 3 to 5 shots. I tell them the goal isn’t necessarily to become proficient at each shooting position (because most of them aren’t going to spend the time or burn the powder), but to learn their limitations. I teach them that prone shooting is pretty limited in hunting fields because of vegetation and terrain, so I want them to focus on learning sitting and kneeling. And before they leave I have them do a bit of standing shooting - if nothing else to teach them to get a rest and at least take a knee.
I’ve only been able to teach around 30 students this year, but hopefully I’m helping a few people to be realistic about their abilities.

Greg (H T), That’s a great point about the terrain and vegetation hiding game and preventing follow-up shots. And while probably not many of the people here know you, I can say you’re one of the top field shots of the thousands of people I’ve been fortunate to hunt with over the years. So I would trust you to correctly know your capabilities.

Thanks,
Kyler

quote:

Originally posted by els:
Well Kyler I feel your pain!!!!
I know I should not get involved in this discussion because after a LOT
of shooting and 5 decades of hunting I have some insights that a lot of people don't feel all warm and fuzzy about.

1.the vast majority of us are highly over confident in our ability to precisely place a cold bore shot under field conditions in difficult atmospheric conditions at unknown distances on a neutral colored animal while excited.

2. The vast majority of hunters do not have access to a range that is over 200 yrds. They do their shooting from the bench and have no idea of what their actual cone of fire looks like from field positions past that range.

3.this is hunting not war. I am afraid the "tactical" aspects have become to0 important in this sport. Yes Warriors make insanely difficult shots some times but in war if a "tactical" shooter makes a hit around the edges of an enemy then ok! That will probably take that enemy out of the fight. Not so in a hunting environment. Hits that are not perfectly placed in the vitals lead to unnecessary suffering.

4. I have wondered for a long time, what is a realistic and humane distance to shoot from? This is the exercise I used to set my personal limits for deer hunting and I think is a very good one to give realistic yardages to shoot at.

200 shots fired.
20 shots at a time
10 sessions different days therefor different temps and winds

The session starts with one shot off the bench to make sure the rifle is still on, so there are no excuses. There are four targets. one each for standing kneeling sitting and prone

walk to 100 yards, tack the targets up and walk back fast to get heart rate up to simulate the excitement of the hunt, walking climbing etc.
shoot one shot standing. Walk quickly to the target and mark the shot. Walk back. Go into kneeling and shoot one shot and walk down and mark the shot. Repeat the drill with quickly getting into position and walking with sitting and prone.

this is done five cycles so that 20 shot are fired. At the end of the exercise the distance from the center of the aim point for each shot is measured and logged.

I did this over 10 sessions so that a total of 200 shots were fired.

when I ran the results through simple statistical analysis to give 2 standard deviations or a 95% probability that my bullet would hit in a six inch target zone , which I think is a good target area for small deer. The yardages were

Standing---- 62 yards
kneeling-----94
sitting------115
prone--------136

If I enlarged critical area to 8 inches with a 95% hit probability the yardages were

Standing----83 yards
kneeling----111
sitting----154
prone ---- 168
All in all not very far to have a 95% chance of making a great shot.

5. I just really don't see much reason for shooting at animals much past 200 yards except under extreme circumstance and then only by some one who has shot at least one barrel out of a rifle target practicing. Or an animal that is wounded and trying to get away.

6. I feel that the hunter who has done lots of shooting will be more than happy when he gets to camp to shoot his rifle and show that he can make hits of a paper plate size target at what ever range he is comfortable shooting at an animal.

7. A guide has the right as a professional to say to his hunter "No that is not a ethical shot for us to take. We must get closer or leave this animal.

OK. Rant off.

I shot yesterday at 100 and 200 yards with various positions; my hit rates are bullets within 4 inches of the center of the target:

200 sitting with sling: 3/3
200 sitting with a BogPod bipod: 2/2
200 standing with BogPod elevated to standing: 2/2
200 standing no sticks, etc: 1/2
100 standing not sticks, etc: 4/5

I love long range shooting, but I shoot way more at 200 than any other range - frankly, 200 and less is where the game is killed.

I do think I need to spend more time offhand at 100. I shot a moose at 50 yards offhand last month, but that is a big target...

Common practice for off hand shooting for High Power shooters is to dry fire some 4-5 shots and call and mark your supposed hit on target beside you. You do this few times you will see a pattern develop and then take 2-3 live fire shots for confirmation. When you can routinely place 5 shots off hand in a 10" paper pie plate at 100yds. you are developing skills which will transfer over to hunting situations. The various techniques used for formal match shooting off hand are extensive and would be difficult to employ for hunting, but it is the practice that makes for better off hand performance regardless of setting, match or hunting. Just a suggestion

Kyler
thank you for your kind and thoughtful response

I made a free standing frame out of 2x4s and staple a cardboard cutout of a deer to it with a 8" steel plate behind on broadside silhouette and 5"x8" plate on frontal silhouette.
I taught both of my boys and my sister-in-law to shoot on these and judged what their effective range should be based on their hits under field conditions. I set them in different positions around the farm where they would shoot off sticks or improvised field rests or from the blinds and stands we hunt from. The maximum range they can make 100% of the hits is the maximum range I will allow them to shoot.

My oldest son has some vision issues which limit him but he can consistently hit out to 100 yards.

My youngest son is thoroughly proficient out to 225 yards, which isn't bad for a nine year old. I still limit my his shots to 150 yards due to his age and experience.

I put my sister-in-law in a bow stand and limit her shots to 40 yards or less. I bought her a Camera, she's far more accurate with that.

I made some grizzly silhouettes out of refrigerator boxes this past summer with a 12 inch plate behind it that I have been practicing on with my .375 & .270 for this coming spring.

It's a cheap easy portable set up to make and might be helpful for you to set up and let clients shoot under field conditions prior to the beginning of their hunt. It sure beats having to hear somebody go on and on about how great they shoot.

Thoughts from a knucklehead...................

I am not sure I have seen proper long range hunting shots (600 yds plus) discussed here. To do it right we need a highly accurate rifle and load with a very repeatable scope, a bipod, tripod, or other very stable shooting rest, a spotter with either 15x binocs or a spotting scope on a tripod, a accurate rangefinder, and a ballistics program and/or drop/windage cards. We need to have spent time chronographing our loads and shooting at various distances so we can take the theoretical (ballistics charts) and turn that into actual hits.

I know a few guys who hunt that way and their first round hit percentage is very high. However, if we are not willing to do all the above we have no business trying to shoot game past 600 yds.

The next tier I call med-long shooting and it is from about 400-600 yds. A reasonably accurate rifle with a decent scope works fine here if we can get steady in a field position. We do need a rangefinder and either multiple aiming points on our scope that we have verified, something like the Leupold CDS, or another repeatable scope where we have verified drops. In most cases we should also have a spotter looking through binoculars.

I think med-long hunting shots are the most abused and thus get the most bad press. 400-600 yds is is a typical cross-canyon shot here in Oregon, and who here doesn't know someone who has bragged about making (or missing) a 600 yd shot by "holding a foot high" over an animal's back? Or maybe started shooting and walked the shots on to the animal. Unless we know where the bullets are going to impact and have a found a steady rest, we have no business taking the shot. The wind ought to be calm as well.

Mid range shooting I call 200-400 yds. A typical bolt action hunting rifle and a duplex reticle works fine here as does duplex reticle range finding. I am no so concerned about having a spotter. A fast flat shooting rifle and MPBR theory works fine here as well. Still important to get steady.

Short range shooting is under 200 yds. With proper technique offhand shots aren't too difficult to 200 yds. This is about as far as I'd want to shoot a moving deer and I am WAY more comfortable with an offhand shot at 100 yds (which I have made) than 200 yds (which I haven't attempted). Regardless, I'll try and find a rest for even a 40 yd shot if I can.

One more short range thing. Shooting while breathing hard with a high heart rate is a very bad idea. I missed an opportunity at a very nice Blacktail buck at about 175 yds a few years ago because I stupidly moved too fast and was breathing too hard when I spotted him. He was head on facing me. I couldn't get steady enough with my heavy breathing and he didn't wait around for me to find a field rest. For those of you who are unfamiliar, when at close range, a mature Blacktail buck will often give you only 4-5 seconds before moving off. That is the opposite experience I've had with both Whitetails in Texas and Whitetails in Oregon. It's also why I like the idea of longer range hunting.

I have shot animals in all of the above categories except the first. (I haven't wanted to fuss with dragging all the equipment into the field.) However, I plan to start true long range hunting with with a group of like minded fellows.

The only distance zone where I have made poor shots is the short-range zone. That is because I had less time to make shots and thus didn't account for brush or misjudged the animals movement. Which brings me to a very important point. Regardless of the distance, conditions, type of sights/optics, how we're rested, or if the animal is moving or not; we should NEVER pull the trigger until we are aimed where we want to be aimed.

One last thing. I don't know where the idea came from that you shooting from the bench doesn't translate to the field. Maybe it came from those same guys who "hold a foot high" when all the time they spent at the bench was shooting off piled up sandbags and and calling their 3" two-shot group as good enough.

When we are disciplined at the bench, shooting consistently good groups from a steady rest through a chronograph, there is a LOT of transfer to the field. The key is to be as disciplined in the field as we are on the bench and remember to never pull the trigger until the sights are aligned where they should be. Shooting through the chronograph gives us actual velocities that will allow accurate hits out to about 600 yds in the field.

Past 600 yds we need actual data from the field in addition to chronograph work. If we want to shoot offhand past 50 yds we need to work on it every now and then.

Well that's how I see it........................

I get that BR fundamentals are the same as fundamentals for any other position. The reason it doesn't transfer is because guys who shoot a lot of bench don't tend to shoot much else IME. My effective range from BR or an F-Class setup is much greater than from a knee, with a sling, over a rock/log. Shooting alts well doesn't happen by luck or magic and being awesome at the bench will not help you at that rock much.

As I said before, I shoot from a bench or prone with bipod for load dev and data collection. After that I generally shoot alts. The vast majority of my shots at work and hunting have been from positions other than prone or from a built up bench (like an urban hide).

I agree with your list of kit in regard to glass and LRF. A spotter is ideal but I shot a lot of solo rifle matches where wind calls are on me and I spot my own shots. I practice that at work as well since there is not always time to have a guy get glass on tripod to help you out. The key is having proofed your drops and shooting enough in wind to become proficient. Read mirage while you drive or take your Kestrel along while you walk the dog.

quote:

Originally posted by 7mmfreak:
I get that BR fundamentals are the same as fundamentals for any other position. The reason it doesn't transfer is because guys who shoot a lot of bench don't tend to shoot much else IME. My effective range from BR or an F-Class setup is much greater than from a knee, with a sling, over a rock/log. Shooting alts well doesn't happen by luck or magic and being awesome at the bench will not help you at that rock much.

As I said before, I shoot from a bench or prone with bipod for load dev and data collection. After that I generally shoot alts. The vast majority of my shots at work and hunting have been from positions other than prone or from a built up bench (like an urban hide).

I agree with your list of kit in regard to glass and LRF. A spotter is ideal but I shot a lot of solo rifle matches where wind calls are on me and I spot my own shots. I practice that at work as well since there is not always time to have a guy get glass on tripod to help you out. The key is having proofed your drops and shooting enough in wind to become proficient. Read mirage while you drive or take your Kestrel along while you walk the dog.

I agree with Freak; I don't shoot at all from a BR; my LR load development is done with a bipod prone at 500 yards. I don't even chrono them, although I might start to when I get a LabRadar. I look for .2 MOA min vertical spread at 500 yards and .25 to .4 maximum spread.

After that, I shoot at 800 yards, making sure vertical dispersion is small. Assuming bullet drop based on chrono'd velocities assumes the BC of your bullet is accurate, which isn't always the case. I like to shoot at actual ranges and see what I am getting for drop. as I shoot over the course of a year, I write down every shot past 500 yards to identify the impact of temperature, windage, the impact of wind on drop (left to right vs right to left), etc.

I practice shooting in the wind - there is simply no substitute for it. I believe short practice sessions are better than long afternoons unless the wind is really shifting around. Most of my long range shooting is done sitting with a bipod and sling, but I practice standing with sticks out to 300 and offhand to 200.

quote:

Originally posted by 7mmfreak:
I get that BR fundamentals are the same as fundamentals for any other position. The reason it doesn't transfer is because guys who shoot a lot of bench don't tend to shoot much else IME. My effective range from BR or an F-Class setup is much greater than from a knee, with a sling, over a rock/log. Shooting alts well doesn't happen by luck or magic and being awesome at the bench will not help you at that rock much.

As I said before, I shoot from a bench or prone with bipod for load dev and data collection. After that I generally shoot alts. The vast majority of my shots at work and hunting have been from positions other than prone or from a built up bench (like an urban hide).

I agree with your list of kit in regard to glass and LRF. A spotter is ideal but I shot a lot of solo rifle matches where wind calls are on me and I spot my own shots. I practice that at work as well since there is not always time to have a guy get glass on tripod to help you out. The key is having proofed your drops and shooting enough in wind to become proficient. Read mirage while you drive or take your Kestrel along while you walk the dog.

Ahh, but disciplined bench shooting skills transfer EXTREMELY well to shooting from other positions. When I was in the middle of competing in 1K BR, I put together a budget grade AR and shot two Highpower matches. Much to the suprise of the experienced Highpower bench-shooting-skills-don't-transfer crowd I placed mid-pack both times. Realize at that time I was ONLY shooting from the bench. When they asked me how a bench shooter like me could do so well on his first two Highpower outings, I said "Simple. Never pull the trigger until the sights are aligned where you want them."

I say a spotter is required past 600 yds--and is an extremely good idea past 400--because an animal can move off after being hit and there is a very good chance when you recover from recoil and get lined up again the animal is gone. A spotter makes recovering game shot at long range much more reliable. Also, though none of us ever miss, a spotter can tell you where the bullet hit since you can see the bullet path in a spotting scope or high power binocs. Now if the animal is standing in a field of low cut grass a spotter isn't such a it deal. Out here, we usually find animals in little openings with cover close by in all directions.

You sound like every BR shooter I've ever met.

"mid pack" in High power can mean anything from a 760 to a 600 ( out of 800) Tell us your score.

I know BR types that also are good at sling shooting, and sling shooters that are top flite BR and F classers, the fact is they are all very different disciplines and well, it takes discipline and commitment to excel at any or all, and no, simply breaking the shot if your sights ate where you want them won't bring you into the Master or better classes in HP- position is so much more important than just sight alignment/sight picture. If you argue that I know you are blowing smoke.