Does anyone know of a .45-70 load for heavy bullets using Win 748 powder? A kindly AR member has given me about 100 cast-and-lubricated bullets with gaschecks and I'd like to use them with my stock of Win 748, if I can find a safe starting load. The bullets average about 468 grains but loads for 500 grainers would be fine.

Speer No.12 lists data using 748 in Springfield and Marlin rifles for their 400gr bullet.

I didn't think it would burn well at Springfield pressures. Never tried it though. Ball powders usually need higher pressure to work well. But Speer should know.

Speer No.12 data. I've loaded the Hornady 500gr RN in a Marlin .45-70 XLR (24" barrel) using 748 and got a muzzle speed just under 1600 fps at near maximum pressure with decent accuracy.

That is getting up there for a cast bullet; depending on what it is made of. Only way is to try it and see.

Thanks everyone. As noted, I posted in reloading, too, perhaps disturbing the flow of comment.

The rifle, you guys might remember at least, is a Miroku Win 86 with a shortish throat.

Thanks 4sixteen, I see your tables for the 400 grain bullets; any chance you could tell or show me what their load for the 500-grainers is?

Speer does not have loads for 500s as they do not make them. Since it is a compressed load for the 400, I would just make it fit the 500 grain bullet filled to the bullet base. That powder is a very slow burner when you put it into a straight case.

Not a recommendation of course to use 500gr jacketed bullets in the Marlin or any other lever rifle for that matter but with appropriate safety measures I was able to load these safely. Re15 also worked with the 500gr Hornady in my Marlin XLR. Slightly higher muzzle speed compared to 748. A bit less compression with 748 since it's a spherical powder. Determined the 500gr start load using simple linear regression and worked up from there to near maximum pressure.

I found some Win748 loads in the Australian Nick Harvey's manual for 405-grain bullets that topped his weak-action list, ranging from 1668fps from 55 grains to 1800 from 59gr.

The Marlin table's test rifle must have had different dimensions or tolerances because 58 grains only gave it 1680fps. The maximum 62 grains managed 1835fps - not much gain over the trapdoor-rifle table for those extra three grains.

My rifle seems to handle 57 grains OK but I have no idea of the velocity.

I'm not having much luck figuring out linear regression, so, unless someone can suggest actual powder weights for 470-500-grain bullets, I might keep the W748 for the 405gr bullets and get some AR2207 for the heavy ones.

Goto "CAST BOOLITS" AND the online Lever gun forums there is a ton of information for the 45-70 with heavy boolits...those are your best bets as they are chocked FULL of 45-70 enthusiasts.

Linear just means starting at a particular weight point and increasing/decreasing a set rate like 1-2 gr at a time...NOT going over SAMMI pressure specs...whatever pressure level YOUR rifle model is rated at. I don't agree with dpcd about ball powders being "linear" and depending on the brand/type they can be VERY NON-LINEAR with burn curves looking like a friggin' banana...in todays world the old adages about ball powders vs flake vs log vs whatever have been blurred beyond recognition.

I don't give out reloading data online for all the obvious reasons and I have 2-458 Americans, 1-450 Marlin and 3-45-70'ish-45-120's. I've found that AA2460 and 2495 to be the best powders for all but the longest/highest volume, 300-720 gr bullet weight, cases as far as velocity/pressure/case longevity and accuracy are concerned, getting 25-40 reloads per case in the ~75-80 gr H2O volume straight walled cases. LOTS of testing went on there.

I have a local supplier for my cast 500 gr RN bullets AND various 45 cal 300-600 gr molds in various nose profile configurations and I've tried MANY DIFFERENT powders in the 4198 thru RL 15 +/- burn rate in these various cartridges(and others) but the two I mentioned work best for my applications.

I just checked my notes for all these cartridges and here is the powder list for 430-720 gr bullets I used in testing: 748, RL-7, H 322, H 4198, 3031, BENCHMARK, Varget, H 4895, H 335, AA-2460, 2495 and 2230, AND probably a few others I didn't note down. Some were better than others with jacketed bullets AND with cast bullets up WAY beyond "normal" velocities for ...BUT, AGAIN, RIFLE/RECEIVER/BARREL LENGTH/CASE CAPACITY SPECIFIC. MOST would give nice velo's and equally nice pressures and that info can be found on many reloading powder maker forums...but again for specific weight that are in use that would work well in your '86 I would go the the above named forums...I KNOW there are many heavy bullet loads listed as I have looked/tried many starting LOW AND WORKING UP SLOW.

You first need to see just how long the COAL IS FOR YOUR PARTICULAR BULLET/CHAMBER, then go from there. MOST 45-70 loads have a COAL OF 2.55" or there abouts...ALL my rifles have a different COAL for the heavy bullets and for the bore riders I also shoot...the 45-120 have COALS out to almost 5" and the 45-70 etc ALL exceed 2.60".

Pick your COAL starting point and one of the popular powders and go from there...or not...just about ANY 500 cal bullet load will suffice for just about ANY animal in the world.

As an aside it's very easy to throat the 86 to obtain the max COAL that will work through the action...one way to turn a 45-70 into a 45-90, 100, or Turnbull can do it for you, but I really don't think you will like the resultant recoil level...I certainly don't when I load up for T-Rex, at least for American game and really not needed.

Good Hunting

Thanks NONAGONAGIN,
I understand your reluctance to suggest loads - but if no manuals have suitable ones I need to start somewhere.

I have searched and trawled other-forum suggestions previously but failed to find loads for the component combinations applicable to my stock and local shops, where brand availability is often restricted.

I shall reread your posts and try to glean the insight needed.

NONAGONAGIN,
I recently signed up on CAST BOOLITS in order to make a post. However, I still cannot post.
Each day, I send a message to the forum admins asking for help and so far, no response.

It may be that they are not staffed sufficiently, but,,,,

I have been a member of Leverguns.com for over 10 years and even they have not responded to a request for assistance to explain why some pix can not be seen by non members and some pix can.

mmm maybe it is me?

I have joined Cast Boolits, NONAGONAGIN, but not asked any questions there yet. Hours of trawling through .45-70 threads has so far failed to produce any useful reference to Win 748, though, and little even on H4198/AR2207 with heavy bullets that I can see.

I have captured some info I might be able to triangulate towards starting or maximum loads, however.

Sorry, CR, can't help you there, I have the same problem now and then. I tried to log on to Cast B but lost my "stuff"...now I have to drive 50 miles to a Wifi station to reset everything...MAYBE.

Basically I think forums get swamped with emails and the "repliers" just delete all past emails and start over each day...I have no clue and EVERY forum has different rules and operating procedures.

I usually just log on and do an on-forum/on-line search for whatever I'm interested in. I've been at this game so long I can usually "de-crypt" whatever information I want that way, and I really DON'T look for specifics because NO ONE wants to be pigeon-holed especially on public forums...all the political BS and lawyer azzcovering always applies.

Sambarman; As I've said somewhere before, 748 just isn't a powder that's used much in the 45-70 so you won't get much response asking about it...there are LOTS of better powders available and parsimony just doesn't work here, but 748 is usable under your limited circumstances. IMR/H4198 is used quite a bit but again YOU have to do the digging if you are looking for a SPECIFIC load...I wouldn't bother. I've found MANY references to the 4198 powders for all the 78-80 gr cases like 450 Marlin, 458 Amer and 45-70 for bullet weights in the 300-500 gr classes online and in my reloading books...pick one and do the work to find a good load. You seem to be fishing for Trout and the only fish available are Mullet.

Better yet...if you are going to get into reloading in a more than circumspect way BUY QL...You never know WHO or WHAT BS is being fed to you by online "HEXPERTS".

Good Hunting

Thanks NONA...
I ran the question on several forums to maximise chance of response and RIP et al came up with Quickload equations in the Big Bores one.

In case you haven't seen the fun this brought up, look back a chapter or three* on the 458 Winchester Magnum thread.

It segued into widening meplats and all sorts of stuff.

*It's moving so fast now that 10 threads back might be needed. It might occur somewhere after chapter 82.

I'm green at reloading for the 45-70 but 748 doesn't seem like a popular/good powder for lead bullets. In general, preferences seem to be for rl-7 and 3031 from the endless searching that I've done. My plan is for 44gr Max of rl-7 for a 405 gr. lead cast bullet in my Marlin 1895. If i get the chance to take it for cape buffalo I'll defer to Buffalo Bore's loading for the job.

Whoops, I lost ya.

Nothing wrong with 748, RL-7, RL-10, 2230 or a bunch of other powders...just depends on what your particular flavor of the month is. Basically the deeper you get into this reloading thing, the more you learn and the more you are able to make other/better??? choices...and the narrower your choices can become...

I did some powder vs case life tests way back with AA2495, AA2230 and AA2460 and 2460 came out on top...longer case life, higher velo which meant lower pressures..I was getting 15 reloads PLUS per case with the 2460 and 8-12 with the other two in a 458 American SMLE...at a minimum...and that was with the fact the 458 Win Mag chamber was slightly larger than the base OD of the 458 Amer...roughly 0.504" to 0.513"

YEAH...If you want to start a rodeo just say something that even HINTS at bad-mouthing the "ol' Thumper"..EVERYONE has a love affair with it and God help the one who calls your girl an ugly old "strumpet"...RIGHT

I've yet to find a 45 cal bullet(withing reason???) that doesn't "do the do" and I've shot a ton of different weights and types in several 45 cal rifles.

I rechambered an NEF 45-70 Buffalo Classic to 45-120 and posted some of the velos I was getting with various weights, cast and Jacketed. Thought I had called "Miss Betsy Ross" a Ho. People were coming out of the woodwork with ropes, rails and hot tar...most spitting total crap about the why's and wherefores I was full of shite.

Hey...NO MATTER WHAT...it's a big bullet at relatively moderate velos with a large amount of momentum that just keeps on going, and going and going. Even the wimpy Remington factory 405 gr with handle the chores.

That 458 Mag thread is just a bunch of dudes blowing hot air or doing drugs/booze...If you are getting something out of it then go for it, I got tired of it after the first 2 pages...very knowledgeable folks whizzing on each others boots... Uh-Ohhh...shouldn't have gone there.

Cape Buff...never shot one...just be sure to use a harder cast bullet...don't want it mashing up on the on-side hide and just tickling it...some of those Brn 15 slugs just turn into silver dollars on hard materials...I'm not a fan of most lever guns for DG but saying that just gets folks riled up. Not a problem with my 450 Marlin Browning BLR but NO WAY with my 336 Marlin...it likes to hiccup and hangup/jam to often, but it's YOUR hunt and YOUR choice.

Good Hunting

quote:

Originally posted by Ske1eter:
I'm green at reloading for the 45-70 but 748 doesn't seem like a popular/good powder for lead bullets. In general, preferences seem to be for rl-7 and 3031 from the endless searching that I've done. My plan is for 44gr Max of rl-7 for a 405 gr. lead cast bullet in my Marlin 1895. If i get the chance to take it for cape buffalo I'll defer to Buffalo Bore's loading for the job.

Don't worry, Ske1eter, I didn't start out saying W748 was the best powder, just that someone had given me tin of it and I'd like to use it up in reloads rather than sprinkling it on the lawn. I've since been sucked into buying AR2207 (H4198) to get the higher velocities some say we need to make the .45-70 a quicker killer.

Dam...repeating myself again...

The 45-70, like the 375 H&H, 308, 30-06, 7-8 x57 and the like have been around so long and used SO MUCH that a ton of reloading data is available and free for the taking on MANY forums and online reloading data links so whether or not you have a reloading manual or not you can find information.


Good Hunting

The biggest downside with W748 I've found so far is that the fine granules get into the guts of my Lee powder measure and then work out again when I'm using a different powder. I've managed to clean it out so far but can see a day when I don't get the damned thing back together again.

Thinking of these 'Perfect' measures, what is the purpose of that brass chain? Anyone, anyone?

Let's cut to it; 748 is not for low pressure loads. Period. It doesn't burn well; most ball powders don't.
Use an IMR powder for cast and save the 748 for hotter loads.

Hummmmm...I don't have a Lee powder measure...I have LOTS of other Lee tools tho'...I have 3 RCBS and 2 Lyman 55's...but I mostly use Lee powder dippers or ones I've made and load individually, dribbling on the scale.

I zapped a nice Rem 870 by using a Lee progressive loader and flake powder...half a load hung up and dumped the other half in the next case so I basically got a charge and a half in that case. They were 3" magnum loads a bit on the stiff side so...I was VERY LUCKY and dodged the big one on that fork-up.AND I DID CHECK BUT NOT GOOD ENOUGH..none of the pieces and parts got me...bulged the chamber and split the receiver...bolt was slammed back into the recess so hard it wouldn't come out...forend and actuating rods came off in my hand...thumb gave me a LARGE black and blue bulge on my cheek and the barrel gave me one above my right eye and almost knocked me on my butte...spit a couple of rounds out across the yard and scrambled my thoughts for a few moments while wondered around looking for a place to sit down...I think.

Haven't used that loader since because it ended up a target for my 3 ball 12 ga shotgun "Mean Bawstid" coolers...and I traded the 20 ga progressive for some bullets...told the guy to be careful and related the same story.

All that reinforced my aversion to "automatic" whatevers and the K.I.S.S principle still applies. I still use my powder measures but only to dump into the weighing pan.

If it's FREE I don't look the gift horse in the mouth too hard.

Not many years ago powder was scarce as hens teeth in my area and I'm WAY to cheap to pay 50 bucks a pound for the UPS RIP off...When powder was finally available it came in 1# cans and ONLY IMR 4831...and was sold 1# per customer...I bought all I could get every time I went to town. Suffice to say I have about 30#'s on my powder shelf. IMR 4831 is excellent for some cartridges, so-so for others and pis-spoor for the small cals...but I'd rather be shooting SOMETHING than standing there looking at my toys and wishing.

≈2500fs in the 223 with 50 gr bullets still kills sage rats fine once you re-calibrate the scope.

NOW it's some brands of primers gone missing...CAN'T find Fed FGM 215's...NOT a lot of ANY mag primers in any other brands...Maybe just buy-ups from hunting seasons and not being stocked yet...I LIKE my FGM Mag primers but got behind in my buying I think.

I ordered 2000 from my FFL dealer but he hasn't called yet...maybe I'd better order some more.

The trials and tribulations of a reloader living in the booney-weeds.

Good Hunting

Thanks dpcd and Nonagonagin.

So, dpcd, it looks like I'll have to buy that 458, then, because nothing much I've got around here is any more suited to W748 than the .45-70.

I'm happy to say, Nona... that I haven't wrecked any guns with my reloading YET, but there may still be time. I have to admit being a chicken, though, throwing every load into the pan and fine-tuning it. Parsimony has been my joy. Previously, my powder measures were old brass shotshells, cut off and with quarter-inch bolts screwed in through the primer pocket for volume adjustment. My powder tricklers have been shotshells with whistle-holed tubes pushed through on an angle.

We have supply problems with powder, too, because only some ships can carry 'explosives' but fortunately some of the best powders and bullets are made here and there's a gun shop 400 yards away.

Yeah...there for a while it was like I was back in the early 60's scratching for anything burnable in a cartridge case, a bullet to use and some way to ignite it. I shot a lot of 30 cal 100 gr Speer "plinkers" trying to turn my 30-30 Lever Power into a 300 WM. Hahahahahaha. I won't say how I found the top load.

Good Hunting

Considering conversation on AR on how various actions handle destructive loads: how does a .30-30 Lever Power do it?

Marlin action for example is rear-locking. Not particularly rigid. As loads are worked up to near maximum increasing case stretch and sticky extraction occur. Over-doing it will likely initiate the first failure mode, a potentially destructive case head separation.

The 30 Lever Power was just am "Ackley-ized" 303 Brit case with a few added adjustments like trimming the rim OD to 0.0520"...or not...it depended on the 'smiths reamer...some didn't following specific "rules" and left the rim standard 303 Brit OD, 0.540"...o not...I just used the 303 Brit cases and the dies he made...maybe he trimmed the cases...I can't remember/don't know now and probably didn't have the tools to measure with anyhow at that time.

Not a lot of data for the 30 Lever Power, some for the 35 Lever Power...I found some data online but both have been supplanted by other, much better, easier to use cartridges...they were ≈50-60 gr cases depending and did ALMOST as well as todays cartridges of the same case volume.

I DIDN'T KNOW SQUAT DOODLY BACK IN THOSE DAYS ans was just starting out in this game. I just did what he told me to do as far as reloading goes. Basically one 150 FB and one 170 gr FB loads...later he showed my how to use "pointy" bullets and how keep from REALLY screwing up. Reloading data for wildcats was a closely guarded secret seemed like then and there WASN'T any "diarrhea of the brain/mouth/fingers" "tell all" BS going on. Measure almost any case dimension today and you will usually find what the drawings show and what reality gives is always DIFFERENT...

And even worse back then...most of the wildcats this 'smith did came with dies, brass, SPECIFIC load data for bullets, powder type and brand, primer and case brand AND COAL. Go outside those parameter and you were SOL if you blew up your gun. For those who had a better understanding of interior ballistics you could and STILL can extrapolate good data from most ANY reloading manual.

As far as "destructive loads" are concerned, there are/were several interior ballistics data sources available back then as today and you can use data for equal case volumes from todays reloading manuals to work out safe pressures...and use already available and stated pressure indicators to approximate safe working pressures and of course SAAMI Pressure limits for specific receivers to keep out of the deep water...it just takes time to learn "whatthehellandwhy".

There were a few "leaders" that carried the "truth" ball forward back then like Powley and Ackley, but there were a lot more that were "selling stories" to make a living that was basically somewhere between half truths and total BS. We are "lucky" to have the dearth of in formation available nowadays that is closer to actual truth if you can cut through all the fertilizer scattered around and use actual, definable, authoritative data.

For those with a deeper interest, read the "Powley Papers" if you can find a source...the data BEHIND todays data...not really needed to point and click todays software but totally interesting to some.

Look closely at the picture 4sixteen posted...just above the bullet at the mag tube line and extend it to the left. Think of that as the curved part of the tube and see how thin it gets there, then consider a WSM case and a LARGER OD mag tube and how much LESS is the thickness of the metal right where the pressure is increasing as the bullet just starts to exit the case...the decide if you want to turn loose MORE pressure by wildcatting. Even going to a larger 50 Alaskan case you REDUCE the chamber MAP pressure, in the case and on the bolt so things DON'T GET CRAZY.

"YOU HAVE TO KNOW YOUR LIMITATIONS" as Dirty Harry said.

Good Luck

Good Hunting

Thanks NONAGONAGIN, I should have looked up exactly what the 30 Lever Power was. So, did you, as 4sixteen seems to suggest, have it chambered it in a Marlin rifle? If so, what gave up when you overloaded it?

BIG WHOOPS...SOMETHING IS GETTING LOST/GOT LOST IN TRANSLATION...I used a Win 94 for my Lever Power and NEVER overloaded it nor destroyed it in any way...I traded it somewhere along the way a few years later...it was still doing the job the last time I talked to the recipient, but that was 35 some odd years ago and MANY household moves...I DON'T OVERLOAD today EXCEPT BY ACCIDENT...NO NEED to experiment with the information available on the 'net.

I built a switch barrel Marlin in 356 W, 444 and 458 American just for kicks...it was a 30-30 originally but had the barrel re-bored to 356 W by Jes and just bought the other original barrels from Gun Parts, then rechambered the 45-70 to 458 Amer...I'm the original "CHEAP ol' BAWSTID".

I won't go into the problems you can experience wildcatting, that has been covered extensively MANY times...you just have to let your fingers do the walking

I WOULDN'T bother with the Lever Power today...too much mucking around for little gain...there are already chambered, much better cartridges like the 308 Marlin Express, 308, 30 TC or 300 Savage and the metric equivalents. I would also go with a larger caliber, 35 Rem, 356 Win, 358 Win or one of the 375/416 wildcats and I would use a Marlin or Henry just because I can mount a scope over the receiver, NOT out on the barrel.

I have or have had many wildcats over the years but after all that futzing around, expensive reamers, dies, screwing around with case making/forming and so forth, today I still look at wildcatting various new cases, BUT that's all for the most part...besides there's nothing wrong with the calibers already available in the Marlin and Win 94.

You have the excellent 303 Brit in Australia and it has been wildcatted extensively...I wouldn't look any farther unless you plan on something much larger than the game available to you in your own back yard.

Good Hunting

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
Yeah...there for a while it was like I was back in the early 60's scratching for anything burnable in a cartridge case, a bullet to use and some way to ignite it. I shot a lot of 30 cal 100 gr Speer "plinkers" trying to turn my 30-30 Lever Power into a 300 WM. Hahahahahaha. I won't say how I found the top load.

Good Hunting

Sorry NONAGONAGIN, I took it you deduced the top load by knowing what was too much.

No, no...that was a bit of "tongue in cheek" facetiousness...a bad assumption on my part.

Even with the "wildest" wildcats there is always some reloading data you can use to extrapolate a safe beginning load. Even "back in the day" there were some reloading manuals, Ackleys books, library books and publications with data and the "Powley Papers" had formula and data that would lead you to safe conclusions.

I did "help" with some destructive testing with Mauser receivers, 98's and others I didn't know the designations at the time. I was the "gopher", "grunt", "coffee boy". I got to do some of the reloads with very explicit instructions, "set up/tie down" the guns, see the results, clean up the mess and save the pieces/parts and listen to the discussions. I understood some and some went way over my high school senior head...it was the beginning of my beginning.

START LOW AND WORK UP SLOW was always the mantra. You basically learn where to start with what case size/volume/bullet weight and where a good stopping point is. Modern commercial receivers have specific SAAMI pressure limits with a safety margin to hopefully keep people's pieces and parts intact and healthy...if you get a sticky case extraction, for all intents and purposes, whatever load you just shot is over-pressure no matter WHAT a reloading manual or software program says for...THAT RECEIVER AND LOAD COMBINATION...it might be OK in another receiver, and therein lies all the conundrums and argument beginnings. Also the main reason I don't post any of my reloading data and very seldom post data even it it is verbatim from some authoritative reloading source.

It is continually restated but people are people and many DON'T listen...and many don't know all the different ways hiccups can happen. It takes time to learn all the ins and outs.

Good Hunting

Thanks for that. Any observations on the way different Mausers deconstructed? One of our members says German ones are likely to balloon up while some from other countries fly apart.