THE ACCURATERELOADING.COM LEVER ACTION RIFLE FORUM

Accuratereloading.com    The Accurate Reloading Forums    THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS  Hop To Forum Categories  Rifles  Hop To Forums  Lever Action Rifles    Shorter, fatter 45-70 equivalent?
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Shorter, fatter 45-70 equivalent?
 Login/Join
 
one of us
Picture of boom stick
posted


Thinking if there is any real benefit to having a 45-70 capacity case that is about 1.8” long to use flat point nominal 458 bullets like a 45-70-500 in a lever action or use the extra useable case capacity to shoot 400 grain bullets to get 45-90 performance but in a nominal 45-70 OAL? Neck an improved 348 case to 458 for the same capacity in a shorter case.


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
 
Posts: 26747 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Bill73
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:


Thinking if there is any real benefit to having a 45-70 capacity case that is about 1.8” long to use flat point nominal 458 bullets like a 45-70-500 in a lever action or use the extra useable case capacity to shoot 400 grain bullets to get 45-90 performance but in a nominal 45-70 OAL? Neck an improved 348 case to 458 for the same capacity in a shorter case.


The 348 has been already been done,it's called the 450 Alaskan & the 45-90 is about the same performance wise.


DRSS
 
Posts: 2038 | Location: MI | Registered: 20 March 2007Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of boom stick
posted Hide Post
I was thinking of a shorter case. 1.8”.


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
 
Posts: 26747 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of dpcd
posted Hide Post
And the 45-90 never used 400 grain bullets. It was an Express round using only 300 grains and a 36 inch twist.
Is there any advantage to making a shorter 450 Alaskan? No.
 
Posts: 13313 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of crshelton
posted Hide Post
DPCD said "And the 45-90 never used 400 grain bullets. It was an Express round using only 300 grains and a 36 inch twist."

That was true of the original 45-90( long ago and far away), but not so now. The twist is now about the same as the 45-70 and it handles bullets up to 450 grains at 2150 fps quite well; at least my Miroku/Winchester 1886 .45-90 does. It still shoots 300 grain bullets quite well up to 2600 fps (at least mine does), showing that there was really no need to handicap the 1886 rifle with the 36 inch twist rate.

Maybe it is still an Express round for 300 , 350, 400, 450, etc. bullets. Roll Eyes


NRA Life Benefactor Member,
DRSS, DWWC, Whittington
Center,Android Reloading
Ballistics App at
http://www.xplat.net/
 
Posts: 1873 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of loud-n-boomer
posted Hide Post
It was called the .45-75 and was a bottle neck cartridge chambered in the Winchester Model 1876 lever action. The 1876 action was not long enough to take the straight .45-70. The 1876 was also chambered in the .45-60, which was simply a .45-70 shortened to fit the action.


One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know. - Groucho Marx
 
Posts: 3528 | Location: Eastern Slope, Colorado, USA | Registered: 01 March 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of sambarman338
posted Hide Post
I've got a 1904 Abercromby & Fitch Camp Outfits catalog that lists nine different .45 calibres chambered in the M86 Winchester - three versions of the .45-70 plus the .45-90, .45-85-300, .45-85-350 and .45-82-405.

Were any of those last three just heavier loadings of the .45-90 Win or were they Ballard or Marlin cartridges? Were rifles chambered to use them given faster twists?
 
Posts: 4194 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 31 March 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of boom stick
posted Hide Post
So, if the 45-75 neck was shortened about 1/10th of an inch, my minds cartridge would be this. Thanks! Still wondering about any real benefits, but it is interesting. Thanks for the heads up on this case beer



577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
 
Posts: 26747 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of dpcd
posted Hide Post
I have built many 45 2.4 inch rifles using 18 inch twists and using 550 grain bullets; however the 2.4 inch case was a 45-90 only from Winchester, as I said. From Sharps and others, it was the 45. 2.4 inch with different twists and bullets, and other names.
People can call anything with a 2.4 inch case a 45-90; it isn't. Modern 86s do use the old name, 45-90, with 45-70 barrel specs; since no one knows or cares about what the real 45-90 WCF was. But I do, and like to be historically, and technically, correct.
The 45-75 was what the Mounties used in their Model 76s.
As for the 45-85; true, those were based on the 2.4 inch case and Win, Marlin, and Ballard had them, but they were not 45-90s. Only the 45-90 WCF was, and is, a 45-90. It's in the name.
 
Posts: 13313 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of boom stick
posted Hide Post
I am in awe of your great knowledge on the subject. Thank you for sharing. This forum is such a great place for learning.


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
 
Posts: 26747 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
I’m curious what platteform this 1.8” cased round would be used in? More rounds in the tube mag? What purpose? More rounds in the mag is always good in my book.


Matt
FISH!!

Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984:

"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right."
 
Posts: 3010 | Location: Northern Colorado | Registered: 22 November 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of crshelton
posted Hide Post
dpcd,
Thank you for the clarification!

So, my 1886 is a 45-90 and a .458 2.4 , BUT being a .458 2.4 does not make that cartridge a .45-90.

I agree! Smiler

I kinda like my .45-90.


NRA Life Benefactor Member,
DRSS, DWWC, Whittington
Center,Android Reloading
Ballistics App at
http://www.xplat.net/
 
Posts: 1873 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of boom stick
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
I’m curious what platteform this 1.8” cased round would be used in? More rounds in the tube mag? What purpose? More rounds in the mag is always good in my book.


I was thinking a marlin lever action.
If the case capacity was the same as the 45-70 but shorter and the OAL the same, you would get 45-90 performance and the ability to use nominal 458 rifle bullets with a flat point. If you had an improved 348 case to 458 that is 2.0” long, then you could really send a wallop in a model 71 with flat point 458 rifle bullets.



577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
 
Posts: 26747 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of buckeyeshooter
posted Hide Post
Or you could just use the 470 Turnbull designed for the marlin and get something that was already designed and proven. I guess you lose a bit of bullet flexibility but if maximum wallop is what you want, it beats a 45/70. If you really want wallop go 50 alaskan.
 
Posts: 5301 | Location: Ohio | Registered: 02 April 2003Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of custombolt
posted Hide Post
Not equivalent, rimless, faster, shorter. 500 automax is worth a look. Big Horn Armory lists it as AR500 here.

450 Bushmaster 250 2200 2687 35
50 Beowulf 350 1820 2575 45
AR500 350 2207 3786 55
AR500 400 1960 3413 56
AR500 440 1838 3301 57


Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can.
 
Posts: 3936 | Location: Near Hershey PA | Registered: 12 October 2012Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Cougarz
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
I was thinking a marlin lever action.
If the case capacity was the same as the 45-70 but shorter and the OAL the same, you would get 45-90 performance and the ability to use nominal 458 rifle bullets with a flat point. If you had an improved 348 case to 458 that is 2.0” long, then you could really send a wallop in a model 71 with flat point 458 rifle bullets.



Isn't that what a .450 Alaskan is? Plus it fits in a Marlin 1895.


_____________________________
Roger

A tyrant needs just three things to be successful; a percieved enemy, a gullible public and a head start.

*we band of 45-70ers*
 
Posts: 2328 | Location: Washington (wetside) | Registered: 08 February 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of sambarman338
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by crshelton:
dpcd,
Thank you for the clarification!

So, my 1886 is a 45-90 and a .458 2.4 , BUT being a .458 2.4 does not make that cartridge a .45-90.

I agree! Smiler

I kinda like my .45-90.


Whether kosher or not, the name certainly rolls off your tongue easier Smiler
 
Posts: 4194 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 31 March 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of crshelton
posted Hide Post
Buckeye shooter said "Or you could just use the 470 Turnbull designed for the marlin and get something that was already designed and proven. I guess you lose a bit of bullet flexibility but if maximum wallop is what you want, it beats a 45/70. If you really want wallop go 50 alaskan."

As I have previously documented, my African loads for my .45-90 already exceed the ballistics of the .470 Turnbull in velocity and energy. The 45-90 450 grain Kodiak bullets at 2150 fps are well up into the lower 50 ALASKAN AND .458 wIN mag ranges.

No dpcd, modern 45-90 DG loads are not those of the original .300 grain .45-90, but "Times They Are a Changing!"

With a salute to History and economy, the Miroku/Winchester .45-90 also does well with .45-70 ammo from 300 grain bullets on up. In fact, the 300 grain Nosler Protected Point at 2200 fps has proven to be an excellent Leopard and plains game load. tu2


NRA Life Benefactor Member,
DRSS, DWWC, Whittington
Center,Android Reloading
Ballistics App at
http://www.xplat.net/
 
Posts: 1873 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
I was thinking of a shorter case. 1.8”.
Consider how closely Winchester's 45-75, the first cartridge chambered for the Centennial Model, or the 45-60 (a 45-70 case shortened), also chambered in the Centennial Model, emulates what you have in mind. Both cartridges are available, but I suspect 45-75, like 50-95 ammunition will be pricey.

I believe Uberti currently manufactures reproduction Winchester Centennial Model rifles and, I believe Cimarron Firearms imports at least one version.

Hope this helps.


It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it. Sam Levinson
 
Posts: 1421 | Location: Seeley Lake | Registered: 21 November 2007Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Bill/Oregon
posted Hide Post
Come to think of it, has anyone played with the .45-75 in a platform other than the Winchester 76 and its modern clones?


I won't take a sermon longer than 10 minutes.
 
Posts: 13785 | Location: Alamogordo, NM | Registered: 03 June 2000Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
I dunno.

but I do remember the 45-70 being chopped down and the barrels set-back on some Marlins for some of the guys in the ohio to deer hunt with.
AIRC they were using 1.8" long cases to meet the regulations up there.
 
Posts: 3656 | Location: soda springs,id | Registered: 02 April 2008Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
DPCD is correct.

A 450 Alaskan will do all that you wish and then some-
the Model 71 Winchester tends to be a better platform than others
for wildcats on the 348 case. Harold Johnson proved that in the early 50s. If that is not quite enough,
try PO Ackley's 450-348 but you will have to strengthen your rifle. Parker Ackley favored the 450 Alaskan and B. Fuller's version as they were reliable and did not require as much action work-
to handle the case.

I have both versions in pre-war M-71s. They will get your attention in 7.5 LB rifles. Better than the 45-90 and stronger case. Read up on PO
Ackley's Vol. I Handbook. Its all there.
 
Posts: 129 | Location: Between Alaska and Gulf of Mexico | Registered: 22 December 2017Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of crshelton
posted Hide Post
quote:
Better than the 45-90 and stronger case.

450 Fuller,
Can you please explain to me in what ways the 450 Alaskan is better than the modern Miroku/Winchester .45-90?
I have never seen or fired a .450 Alaskan, but I have heard good reports on its performance on the largest of bears.

I do know that my .45-90 (.458 2.4 ) has performed well on game from Blackbuck to elephant, bison, Cape Buffalo, leopard, etc with my favorite 450 grain Kodiak bullets at 2150 fps.


NRA Life Benefactor Member,
DRSS, DWWC, Whittington
Center,Android Reloading
Ballistics App at
http://www.xplat.net/
 
Posts: 1873 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Ive had two original 45-90s in 86 Win. and my favorite load in both was the 350 hornady RN. I shot some 400 gr. bullets and both guns handle them extremely well...The only way you can make that determination is to shoot them at 100 yards for group...I much preferred the 45-90 win 86 to the 45-70 or the 45s on the 348 case..The 45-90s always seemed to me to shoot better than any other lever action, by chance or not thats the way I feel about them...NOt only were they suitable on elk and deer and a couple of bison, but both of them won me a lot of turkeys, hams, and becon..


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 37180 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of cal pappas
posted Hide Post
A bit shorter and fatter?
Perhpas my ex girl friend?
Seriously, how about the .50-95 WCF?

Cal


_______________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
www.CalPappas.com
www.CalPappas.blogspot.com
1994 Zimbabwe
1997 Zimbabwe
1998 Zimbabwe
1999 Zimbabwe
1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation
2000 Australia
2002 South Africa
2003 South Africa
2003 Zimbabwe
2005 South Africa
2005 Zimbabwe
2006 Tanzania
2006 Zimbabwe--vacation
2007 Zimbabwe--vacation
2008 Zimbabwe
2012 Australia
2013 South Africa
2013 Zimbabwe
2013 Australia
2016 Zimbabwe
2017 Zimbabwe
2018 South Africa
2018 Zimbabwe--vacation
2019 South Africa
2019 Botswana
2019 Zimbabwe vacation

______________________________
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Willow, Alaska | Registered: 29 June 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
450 Marlin. Mine is a left hand Win Model 70


Quick, Cheap, or Good: Pick Two
 
Posts: 1783 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: 18 February 2007Reply With Quote
  Powered by Social Strata  
 

Accuratereloading.com    The Accurate Reloading Forums    THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS  Hop To Forum Categories  Rifles  Hop To Forums  Lever Action Rifles    Shorter, fatter 45-70 equivalent?

Copyright December 1997-2020 Accuratereloading.com


Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia