Regarding that safety, I finally found a couple of snap caps for the .45-70. On running them through the rifle and 'firing' it, I forgot that the safety was on. Lo and behold the firing pin left marks on the faux primers.

I've dry-fired one of the dummies since but can't tell the difference in its 'primer' appearance and that of the one only snapped with the safety on.

That's disturbing to hear,I never thought of testing the safety,I think I will now do so the next time at the range with live rounds.
I have two 1886's with safeties.

With luck the indent will be much less than normal and fail to set off the primer. Not a good look just the same. Why the safety was not made to work like a British stalking safety that keeps the hammer from dropping, beats me.

quote:

Lo and behold the firing pin left marks on the faux primers.

Interesting and not the same as my experience with two Miroku-made Winchester 1886 rifles, one 45-70 and the other 45-90.
After several years on Leverguns.com, I have not heard of this. Is it possible that the mechanism is not factory-fresh?

Possibly others with relevant experience will comment on this?

I suppose it's possible that the snapcaps already had marks in the centre of the primer that looked like a firing-pin indent. They came out of sealed packaging but it did not occur to me to inspect the 'primers' before using them.

The rifle was sold to me as unfired and certainly looked that way when I got it. I have only fired eight rounds since and had not dry fired it without the snapcaps.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Well guys, having bought dies and some 405gr Woodleighs, I took the rifle to the range today. It shot in line but needed the second step on the elevator to shoot high enough.

The only problem I've had is that the cannelure on the bullets seems a fraction too far back and even though crimping at the front of the cannelure and meeting the max COAL, the bullets touch the rifling.

The Starline cases measure 53.1mm in my ancient calipers, less than the 53.5mm length listed in Wikipedia but the only answer suggested so far is to shorten the cases by 1mm, which won't help powder capacity.

Any other ideas gratefully considered.

Finally the penny has dropped after about five months since that post, and apologies to anyone who pointed this out without my getting the gist:

It would seem the Woodleigh 405-grain flat nosed bullets must have been designed with Hornady brass in mind.

Members of another forum concerned with cast bullets were discussing how Hornady brass was much shorter than other brands. Still I didn't get it. Then today I noticed in my 3rd edition Hornady Handbook that even in 1987 (possibly before the company made ammo?), they considered the .45-70 case length to be 2.035 inches.

I compared my once-fired Hornady brass (2.030") with unfired Starline cases and found the latter to be between 2.093 and 2.096 inches.

So, it seems that had I had Hornady cases to reload or trimmed the others 1.5mm, the need for the Lee Factory Crimp die might never have come up - but there'd be less space to put the powder.

Cheers
'Sam'

PS: crshelton, in looking over these old posts, I see an undertaking to send you a copy of my scope book when it came out. So, PM me your address and I'll get it off to you ASAP.

Thanks for remembering scope book.
PM sent.

There is a lot of detail on these forums and it is easy to forget some of it.
Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by JFE:
Buy a Lee factory crimp die. This will allow you to crimp the bullet in position without trimming cases.

Well, JFE, the Lee factory-crimp die worked well with Starline cases and those cast bullets you gave me but I think I might have to roll crimp the 405gr Woodleighs in Hornady cases.

As I've explained elsewhere, I discovered Hornady make their cases about 1.5mm shorter than standard. So, I thought they would be ideal for use with the Woodleighs, which seem to have the cannelure too far back for a .45-70 with next to no throat.

To be sure things worked, I passed up on the normal crimp and used the LFC die instead. But despite my tightening it down progressively and feeling that bump at the end more and more, the cases did not seem to be crimping into the cannelure. Though the collett had not completely closed, the sleeve on which it is positioned finally came out with the cartridge and I noticed the bullet had been pushed another mm into the case.

Looking at the bullet instead of the case mouth, the penny finally dropped - the die was not crimping the case but the bullet about 2mm ahead, even though the instructions said short case length should not be a problem.

So, I might have to pull that bullet, at least, and try crimping with the bullet-seating die. Any thoughts on this stuff gratefully received.

I read that Hornady .45-70 brass for their 325 grain rubber pointed bullets is shorter to accommodate the bullet. If shooting only factory ammo and not reloading, just tossing the fired cases makes sense.

I suppose the presence of those "short " cases requires extreme vigilance when setting up to load .45-70 ammo.
Thanks for the reminder. I will avoid(throw out) any Hornady cases completely. I prefer the 300 grain .458 Nosler PP anyhow.

A friend with a Sabatti .45-70 double rifle says it was regulated with the Hornady factory 325 ammo, so he just shoots that in the rifle - KISS.

With any seating dies there will be a minimum case length over which the die will work. I would email Lee and ask them why their die won't work with the Hornady brass. They may offer to correct the die.

Don't be surprised if your regular seating die doesn't work either. If it doesn't crimp the shorter brass you will need to have base of the seating die trimmed to allow the crimp to function with the shorter brass.

Thanks CR and JFE.

I hate to throw away brass, CR, the rifle does a good-enough job of that in the bush. Whether that 325-grain bullet is the reason, Hornady seems to have considered that 2.035 inches to be the correct .45-70 length as far back as 1987, at least, according to their manual's third edition.

I hope you're wrong about the standard crimp, JFE, as I thought those short cases may have been the answer to my problems.

I wonder it there might be a third way to add a crimp? Maybe my new bullet pullet (electrician's crimping pliers) could have an extra application.

When I saw you refer to the short case length shown in the old Hornady book, I checked my earlier edition and sure enough it listed the shorter case as well. My manual pre-dates the gummy tip bullets so I can't explain the case length anomaly as the 45/70 is listed as 2.1" most everywhere else.

I had heard some die manufacturers had made their 45/70 seating dies shorter to cater for the Hornady brass and some do not. If your seating die doesn't it's no real issue for a machinist to trim the bottom of the seating die to suit. Then it will be suitable for both lengths.

Out of curiousity I looked up the SAAMI spec for the 45/70 and they list max length of 2.1099".

That spec was dated 20 May 1980. As far as I can tell SAAMI cartridge specs have only existed from around 1979.

You may be right, JFE: though my bullet pullet (its beak covered with gaffer tape) was able to pull the offending bullet a convenient distance without even leaving a mark, the seating die won't make a crimp, either.

I tried to put a shim under the cartridge in the shell holder but the slack there is more apparent than real. So, even if I got a steel shim in there it would hardly make any difference.

So, I'll tackle Lee regarding this problem.

Looking for an email address to complain to, I found myself in a Lee troubleshooting webpage. There they admitted that their factory crimp die won't work with Hornady Leverevolution cases because they are too short.

They offer to shorten the die for $15 plus postage but, since it only cost $25, I can't see much point in sending it to the USA.

I might ask my fitter-and-turner mate if he can take a bit off the end.

Well guys, my mate said the die is probably hardened, so shortening might need to be done with a grinder.

However, he suggested as a stop gap to replace the shell holder with, say, a standard rimless one, put a washer on top and just push the cartridge up into the LFC die above them.

This worked fine and I didn't even need a screwdriver to get the rounds out afterwards.

A word of warning, though, screw the die well out to compensate for the washer etc; my first attempt wrinkled the case, meaning I had to pull the bullet (hard with such a great crimp ) and resize.

Cheers

PS: JFE, I didn't see your last two posts until after I'd finished my welter of updates. But yes, it's all very mysterious and I may get the die shortened eventually. As you can see, my efforts are more bubba than 'Accurate Reloading'.

Lee dies are pretty soft and are generally the choice for wildcatters making dies on the cheap.

Their regular seating die can be made to work on both case lengths.

The crimp action of the FCD is different and relies on a crimping collet actuated by bottoming out the die on the shellholder. This could also be trimmed but may not then work with regular length cases. A way around that would be to make spacer of the right thickness that you would then slide over the regular length 45/70 case - it would fit between the shellholder and the die, effectively making it work with the longer case as well.

Thanks for that info. I suppose I could shorten either die but, since FCD cost less and I (should) know where to get another one, it would be the obvious one to work on.

I think as a consequence of my tightening the collet to near max, the flange at the top that kept it in the outer part has reduced to a point where it no longer stays located. I'm tempted to use a box cutter to reopen the collet's fingers, but maybe after it's been in the lathe jaws.

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
I read that Hornady .45-70 brass for their 325 grain rubber pointed bullets is shorter to accommodate the bullet. If shooting only factory ammo and not reloading, just tossing the fired cases makes sense.

I suppose the presence of those "short " cases requires extreme vigilance when setting up to load .45-70 ammo.
Thanks for the reminder. I will avoid(throw out) any Hornady cases completely. I prefer the 300 grain .458 Nosler PP anyhow.

A friend with a Sabatti .45-70 double rifle says it was regulated with the Hornady factory 325 ammo, so he just shoots that in the rifle - KISS.

I think JFE and my fitter/turner mate have solved this problem, CR, without recourse to Lee.

If you want to use factory-crimp dies with all brands, just push the cartridges up by use of a shellholder meant for a smaller case head and/or a washer on top, when using the short Hornady cases.

On the other hand, if the bullet-seating die's crimp is OK for longer cases, just take about 1mm off the bottom of the CFD and use it only for the Hornadies. Since this is just to get the length more usable, that operation does not even need to be done in a lathe. If the steel is too hard to file, just remove the bevelled section with an angle grinder - the longest bit remaining will set the length.

JFE suggests that if you wanted to use the CFD with normal-length cases later, you could slip a ring over the case to sit against the rim, to restore the length required

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Well guys, my mate said the die is probably hardened, so shortening might need to be done with a grinder.

However, he suggested as a stop gap to replace the shell holder with, say, a standard rimless one, put a washer on top and just push the cartridge up into the LFC die above them.

This worked fine and I didn't even need a screwdriver to get the rounds out afterwards.

A word of warning, though, screw the die well out to compensate for the washer etc; my first attempt wrinkled the case, meaning I had to pull the bullet (hard with such a great crimp ) and resize.

Cheers

PS: JFE, I didn't see your last two posts until after I'd finished my welter of updates. But yes, it's all very mysterious and I may get the die shortened eventually. As you can see, my efforts are more bubba than 'Accurate Reloading'.

Redding makes sets of shell holders of various heights over a standard shell holder.This might work for you.OB

Thanks OLBIKER, I might look into that.

PS: have looked through their catalog but the only things I can see are shellholders incrementally lower than standard, in order to reduce headspace. That sounds like a good idea to me but they reduce rather than increase the height of the shellholder.

If the type I would need, say 40-60 thou higher than standard, does exist, could you post a link to the webpage showing it, please?

Thinking further on this, I think that what might be needed if the answer lies in shellholders, could be one with a thinner upper U grip because the thickness of that gripping part is what keeps the cartridge going farther into the die.

Thinking back over the years every injury Ive seen with cresent butt plates was not about the caliber it was from shooting at game on a steep slope where the rifle itself is pointing up and the space between eye and sight is closed up, and it will poke you good and probably take out an eyeball, who knows..Ive seen some cut up eye brows and a world of whining..but Ive seen the same with scopes, even more so..everybody get a scope half moon cut sooner or later.

Though I have discussed it in PMs and maybe on another thread, maybe Atkinson anticipates another theme in the saga of my new toy: the tang sight getting knocked forward by inertia or my glasses when I fire heavy bullets.

Forgive me if I've explained it on this thread already but rather than use a target disc in the field, I've ground the solid end off a couple of grub screws and insert them in the front of the round sight top, to stop down the aperture a bit.

Now, those inserts are out of the way but in case the rounded top hits my glasses lens or someone's eye, I've folded over some black electrician's tape (to make a blunter, thicker edge) and stretched it over the head like a bonnet, tethering it with more tape around the thread. It also cuts reflection from the roundy top when the sun is overhead.

The Lee crimp dies are great. I buy one with each new caliber I acquire. I'm curious about the concern over less powder capacity? I never had that problem in a 45-70? Packy

With those short Hornady cases and bullets that use all of what passes for a throat, there must be some limitation in powder capacity.

I am not a power user, however, and the base loads of AR2207 (H4198) with the 400-grain bullet, starting at 1855fps, would do me. It may be that with the reduced case capacity those starting loads might give slightly higher velocities than listed.

It is sometimes hair-raising to see how manuals' loads evolve over time, both up and down. In checking that velocity above, I was initially unable to access the 2010 book I got it from, so I looked at an edition from 14 years earlier and another, perhaps first edition, from some time before that.

In my oldest ADI book, Marlin 1895s and Rugers were considered together but the top load for AR2207 with a 400 gr bullet was only 38 grains for 1550fps.

In the 1996 edition those two rifles were granted max charges of 44 grains for 1750fps but (old) 1886 Winchesters were only allowed 30.5 grains.

The 2010 (5th) edition split the .45-70 tables three different ways but had the middle (Marlin) 400-grain load starting at 46 grains for that 1855fps, maxing out at 50.5 grains for 2000fps.

Even scarier I think is that the middle book lifted certain loads for the 338WM but ADI dropped them back again in the third!

So, would you guys be content with 46 grains of AR2207 (H4198) behind a 405-grain Woodleigh (five grains more bullet than in the manual), or should I put those cartridges aside and at least start a few grains lower?

If I ever decide to go back to shooting a 86 Win. I want the largest one made, like a 45-120 or 140 or even a 50/120 or 140 if feasible..Ive seen a lot of stuff shot with those big old slow bullets, sometimes with success but more than a few long tracking jobs happened in the day...Most all with hopped up handloads and the best bullets of the day...I have some of those kills taped, its discouraging and most of the information we get on kills is passed on with a she said he said, not actual or visual reports..especially with the 45-70 in my case..I have become suspicious over 45-70 claims as a result..or rather with a jaundice eye sounds better...IMO big slow 400 gr. 40 cal.rifles need 2200 FPS and 500 gr. bullets in a 470 or 500 2100 FPS at least..A 40 cal needs a 400 gr. and a 500 needs at least a 500 gr. short fat bullets simply lose velocity fast and don't penetrate worth a flip.

Your experience trumps mine in any calibre, Ray, but 1850fps with a 400-grain bullet would exceed almost any Winchester 86 black-powder load, including the .50-110. The .45-120 and .450/.400 won't fit an 86 - yet even the latter rarely gets to 2200fps in a double, and that was Elmer Keith's favorite big-bear rifle IIRC. Are you saying no 19th Century Win 86 load was was really up to brown bear and elk?

On my reloading question, do you think 46 grains of H4198 is a reasonable starting load behind a 405-grain Woodleigh considering case space sacrificed to the short throat - or should I back off?