I am approaching that age when excitement becomes a distant memory, but had a little whiff today! It seems I am to be the proud owner of a modern Winchester 86 in .45/70, acquired at two-thirds price, that has never been fired.

Does that 'unfired' status have any residual value, or should I just get out there and shoot it?

I'm sorry to say it has the lawyer's safety but the vendor assures me I can replace it with a tang peep.

Does anyone know if that is true, and what make of aperture sight I should look for?

It has the old sharp-curve metal butt plate at the end of plain-looking wood. I'm inclined to take it off carefully and replace it with a better-figured piece, finished with a nice recoil pad. Does anyone know of an after-market butt I might get in Australia?

Thanks in anticipation

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
I am approaching that age when excitement becomes a distant memory, but had a little whiff today! It seems I am to be the proud owner of a modern Winchester 86 in .45/70, acquired at two-thirds price, that has never been fired.

Does that 'unfired' status have any residual value, or should I just get out there and shoot it?

I'm sorry to say it has the lawyer's safety but the vendor assures me I can replace it with a tang peep.

Does anyone know if that is true, and what make of aperture sight I should look for?

It has the old sharp-curve metal butt plate at the end of plain-looking wood. I'm inclined to take it off carefully and replace it with a better-figured piece, finished with a nice recoil pad. Does anyone know of an after-market butt I might get in Australia?

Thanks in anticipation

I have always shot any gun that I have bought,the safety is not a big deal,I just leave it off in the two rifles that I have with them,you can replace the stock with a stock from the extra light models if your gun does not have a pistol grip.

I just traded for one from a fellow AR member. Mine came with the factory peep tang sight. Shoot it.

If it has a tang safety, it has no collector value.
Shoot it and enjoy.

Marble tang safety sight

You can't replace the safety, but you can cover it up.
The link I provided is sold out, but you get the idea. Marbles.

The curved butt is quite comfortable to shoot. It goes on your upper arm, not the shoulder.

When Winchester introduced the tang safety and rebounding hammer in their 1886 models some buyers experienced inconsistent ignition, however later models apparently don't suffer from the same problem. There's no real collector value in these models as Winchester periodically churns out limited runs with different options. It's a great rifle though, very strong, well made and with the right bullet shape you can cycle cartridges around 2.8" long.

Personally, I'd try it out first and see what it's like. There are various changes you can make to disable the tang safety and rebounding hammer if you are that way inclined. A Google search should reveal the 'how to' tutorials.

Some diehards swap in Browning 1886 parts to create a modern strong 1886 closer to the way they were originally designed. In Oz it will be almost impossible to acquire the parts though. You'd still need to weld up the top of the receiver where the sliding safety sat.

I think it's Marbles that make a tang sight that fits behind the safety, i.e. They make one that works with tang safety models.

You would need to disable and remove the tang safety to fit a tang sight that fits the original Win 1886 models, which would also cover the hole where the tang safety sat.

I bought a tang safety 1886 deluxe takedown around 2005ish. Never fired it, keep all the documents and box. I bought it for $1455.00 through Gallery of Guns. I sold it on gunbroker 2 years ago as a consignment with a local dealer. After his commission, I netted $2120.
So, although these guns will not appreciate like originals, if you keep them nice, you can make money.
I origionally bought it to send to Turnbull as a switch barrel 45/70 and 450 Alaskan.
With the advent of the Turnbull manufactured 1886's, I ended up with a shotgun butt, no tang safety gun in 50-110 instead for the cost of the work on the other gun.

Thanks guys,
I was about to race out for some ammo ... until buckeyeshooter posted.

Is there anywhere I can search that method of putting the crescent butt plate on my arm,
vlwtx348?

You never know the perversity that may arise in collecting, JFE. Imagine, with so many permutations, some collector in a hundred years may be looking for rifles at least branded Winchester, hoping to collect all the different options

I notice Midway have a tremendous choice of ammo, some with velocities way beyond the original .45/90 and .45/83 (Marlin's heavy-bullet loading?).

I know where I can get some Hornady Leverevolution 325gr carts (presumably OK in this 86). Would stuff like the Buffalo Bore 405gr at 2000fps be too much; if not, do brands like that come over here?

I found a tutorial on fixing the hammer and trigger. If anyone knows of a place in Australia that has the Marble peep it could help a lot. I know of respected merchants in the US that will send me stuff like that but that may not be the problem now.

What is all this business about "not firing guns"? No safe queens! Shoot that thing!

My Miroku 1886 TD .45-90 has a Marbles tang peep sight and a Marbles folding barrel sight. Makes for a nice combination.

WRT the crescent buttplate, I just tuck the lower tip of the crescent under my arm pit and fire away. The rifle will exhibit muzzle rise with heavy loads, but comes right back down on target. This technique has never cut or bruised me.

I did have the trigger pull lightened to 4 pounds to match all my other hunting rifles.

Remember the design of the crescent butt plate was developed in the era when rifles did not kick very hard; it was first used at end of the flint era, and at the same time, the advent of small bore rifles, as all the big game in the East was killed off. So, shooting off the arm was ok.
Then in the cartridge era, it was used on the small bores like the Win 92. But when installed on the 86 and 95, it was just a throwback to a bad design; I am sure the marketing department called for them. And on a 405, it is far worse. Those rifles are not well suited for shooting off the arm; hard kickers need to be on the shoulder. No military rifle of the period had them; they were just for looks.
Which is why I replace all I have and build up, with shotgun butts. A much better idea.

quote:

Originally posted by Clayman:
What is all this business about "not firing guns"? No safe queens! Shoot that thing!

When it comes to 1886's and 1895 winchesters, I have a few shooters and then a bunch of new ones because I love them. No reason to shoot a deluxe, when I have a standard model that I have already hunted.

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
My Miroku 1886 TD .45-90 has a Marbles tang peep sight and a Marbles folding barrel sight. Makes for a nice combination.

WRT the crescent buttplate, I just tuck the lower tip of the crescent under my arm pit and fire away. The rifle will exhibit muzzle rise with heavy loads, but comes right back down on target. This technique has never cut or bruised me.

I did have the trigger pull lightened to 4 pounds to match all my other hunting rifles.

My trick for the cresent buttplate is to put on a leather cuff that helps flatten it out and pad it a bit. The cowboy action leather guys can make one up for you easily. Other than that, I get a shotgun butt if I can. I have a winchester 1895 carbine in 30-06 with a cresent that hurts alot more than a marlin 1895 with a flat butt that has been rebarrelled in 50 alaskan (a 180gr. 308 hurts more than a 535 gr. 510 in this case).

While Leverloution ammo would be fine in your rifle, the brass used is shorter than regular 45/70 brass. I'd buy the components and load some ammo up.

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
My Miroku 1886 TD .45-90 has a Marbles tang peep sight and a Marbles folding barrel sight. Makes for a nice combination.

WRT the crescent buttplate, I just tuck the lower tip of the crescent under my arm pit and fire away. The rifle will exhibit muzzle rise with heavy loads, but comes right back down on target. This technique has never cut or bruised me.

I did have the trigger pull lightened to 4 pounds to match all my other hunting rifles.

Thanks again everyone,
yes, I have put out feelers over here as to where I can get one of those Marbles peeps. I could probably get it from Brownells et al but the hassle has shifted lately to our importing parts because gangsters were bringing in bits of handguns and reassembling them here.

The folding tangent sight might be an idea, too, because I have little experience with buckhorn sights and they seem counter-productive to me. However, I would be inclined to use an open sight for close shots and zero the tang sight for, say, 150 yards, so the buckhorn might not be in the way.

By the way, CR, my book on riflescopes is finally being printed now. I'll try to arrange a signed one for you, sent by the cheapest method, whatever that turns out to be.

I may finish up just replacing the butt plate, too, dpcd. Maybe I could put the plate back on a fancier piece of wood and keep that for show.

Buckeye, I might give your idea a go for a start. I've got a rag of soft leather I could hold on with rubber bands and scraps of closed-cell foam I could put underneath.

I was thinking of using an old slip-on pad but that might make the length of pull too long and change the zero slightly. I got hold of some of those 325gr, 2000fps Hornady Leverevolutions, so it may need something.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

Is there anywhere I can search that method of putting the crescent butt plate on my arm,
vlwtx348?

I notice Midway have a tremendous choice of ammo, some with velocities way beyond the original .45/90 and .45/83 (Marlin's heavy-bullet loading?).

I know where I can get some Hornady Leverevolution 325gr carts (presumably OK in this 86). Would stuff like the Buffalo Bore 405gr at 2000fps be too much; if not, do brands like that come over here?

You should be able to Google shooting methods with a crescent butt plate. You simply put it where it is comfortable. The crescent butts were traditionally on carbines as they were expected to be shot from horseback. Hooking it on your arm gives more stability. When mounted or standing, you roll with the recoil. From the bench, it will eat your lunch.
The rifles don't kick any harder now than they used to....the ammo does, depending on what ammo you choose.
That modern 1886 will safely handle any factory ammo. It is a very strong action. I trust it more than an Marlin 1895 that everyone thinks is so strong. Remember, this in not a 130 year old black powder frame.
I shoot Grizzly ammo (400 gr Woodleigh @ 2100 fps) and LeverEvolution 325 gr in my Browning 1886, as well as some pretty stout handloads.

Simplest solution in to square cut the stock and add a recoil pad. It would be cheaper than buying a shotgun stock and butt plate, but then you could sell your stock and crescent buttplate.

The Marbles sight goes over the tang safety, which must be left in the "fire" position.

If you are planning on using heavy loads I would advise against a tang sight as the eyepiece would be quite close to your eye.

If you aren't planning to change loads often then something like a XS peep sight is very robust but not so easy to adjust. A side mounted peep sight like an old steel Lyman or Redfield would be ideal but are much harder to find and quite expensive. The last one I bought on eBay a few years ago cost me around US$200 plus shipping.

There's an outfit in the US making repro side mounted peep sights but they're quite pricey.

I would also advise against one of current made Lyman side mounted peep sights as they are not very robust.

Below are links to a couple of options:

http://montanavintagearms.com/sights/

They have a tang sight option for original 1886 rifles. They also have some interesting front sight options.


https://www.dwbattlesight.com/products.html

They have a side mounted peep with lots of options. Their sight looks like an old Redfield.

quote:

Originally posted by JFE:
If you are planning on using heavy loads I would advise against a tang sight as the eyepiece would be quite close to your eye.

There's an outfit in the US making repro side mounted peep sights but they're quite pricey.

I would also advise against one of current made Lyman side mounted peep sights as they are not very robust.

I don't like tang sights for the reason JFE lists as well as the fact they alter my grip.

I use one of these on my 1886 Browning SRC
Skinner Barrel Mount
People will tell you that the purpose of a peep sight is defeated by having it so far forward on the barrel. Fooey. Works like a champ, fast target acquisition, inherently accurate, and no modification to your rifle is required.

Providence Tool Co makes a Pattern 21 sight that is very reasonable ($159 USD versus $600 for an original Lyman) and it includes drill bit, tap, and screws necessary to mount the sight.
However, I don't recommend it for hard recoiling rounds either. If you are right-handed, the adjustment lever might contact your thumb in less than optimal shooting positions. It hurts. A lot of things don't manifest on the bench but do in the field.

My cup floweth over!
Where to start?

Yes vlwtx348, the modern factory loads put the 45/70 up with the top Sharps black-powder loads, hence my abandonment of hopes for a 45/90.

I too have wondered where you put your thumb around a tang sight. Having almost lost a nose to a 458 Lott, straight across the grip may not be the answer.

I would go immediately to a receiver sight but for nostalgia and the memory of my Lyman 66 cross arm bent down on the 94 Big Bore when my teenage son fell over on a steep hill.

The sight over the safety sounds good, though it finally occurred to me that maybe Winchester saw some analogy with the British stalking safety in their weird idea.

I guess my glasses could get scratched by the tang sight, JFE, though I would probably turf the disc. Yes, the Lyman cross arms are a bit soft.

I must trawl Stroebel's book to see if breech-block peeps are kosher - wouldn't want my rifle to take on the stain of a bolt-action muzzleloader

quote:

The Marbles sight goes over the tang safety, which must be left in the "fire" position.

A little correction for Vance who said the above:

Not so on my Miroku /Winchester 1886 .45-90. The sight base does make the safety inconvenient to use, but it still works. Note the little bump in front of the base in the pic below.

Also, on my rifle, the front tip of the comb had to be shortened to allow the tang sight to fold down to the lock position where it is below the top line of the stock and therefore protected and not able to interfere with the shooters hand.
I have close up pix of this and will add later as I just picked up my computer from the shop and do not yet have all data back where it should be.






JFE comment on heavy loads and tang peep sights; My rifle has been hunted with 450 grain bullets at 2150 fps MV and no one has been hurt yet. However some big game has been hurt! For close in big and dangerous game the tang peep is folded down and the barrel sight folded up for ranges up to 50 yards. I prefer to carry the peep down and barrel sight up until I need the peep and then there is time to switch sight choice.

Although not period correct for the 1886 model, Winchester had a bolt mounted aperture sight as an option for the M71 and M64 rifles. Originals are worth a small fortune these days but Pedersoli offer them as an option on some of their 86/71 models. The bolt needs to be altered to fit these sights.

Here's a link to their site:

https://www.davide-pedersoli.c...creedmoor-sight.html

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by crshelton:
My Miroku 1886 TD .45-90 has a Marbles tang peep sight and a Marbles folding barrel sight. Makes for a nice combination.

WRT the crescent buttplate, I just tuck the lower tip of the crescent under my arm pit and fire away. The rifle will exhibit muzzle rise with heavy loads, but comes right back down on target. This technique has never cut or bruised me.

I did have the trigger pull lightened to 4 pounds to match all my other hunting rifles.

Thanks again everyone,
yes, I have put out feelers over here as to where I can get one of those Marbles peeps. I could probably get it from Brownells et al but the hassle has shifted lately to our importing parts because gangsters were bringing in bits of handguns and reassembling them here.

The folding tangent sight might be an idea, too, because I have little experience with buckhorn sights and they seem counter-productive to me. However, I would be inclined to use an open sight for close shots and zero the tang sight for, say, 150 yards, so the buckhorn might not be in the way.

By the way, CR, my book on riflescopes is finally being printed now. I'll try to arrange a signed one for you, sent by the cheapest method, whatever that turns out to be.

I may finish up just replacing the butt plate, too, dpcd. Maybe I could put the plate back on a fancier piece of wood and keep that for show.

Buckeye, I might give your idea a go for a start. I've got a rag of soft leather I could hold on with rubber bands and scraps of closed-cell foam I could put underneath.

I was thinking of using an old slip-on pad but that might make the length of pull too long and change the zero slightly. I got hold of some of those 325gr, 2000fps Hornady Leverevolutions, so it may need something.[/QUOTE
If you cut the foam to fill in the moon and make a flat surface, then cover it with the leather and stitch it up. You can place it in the bottom of a cuff and effectively have a shotgun butt. I have seen this done by folks too.

Wow, CR - 450 grains at 2150 fps, presumably with no extraction problems! I start to see the sense of the tang sight. It sits in the middle of the grip so your thumb has to lay along the right side, leaving no way it can assassinate your nose.

Would I still have to remove stock wood if I just removed the aperture disc?

Thanks JFE, I'll have a think about these choices and see what I can find.

PS: Buckeyeshooter, am I going nuts or has one of my earlier posts been repeated, attributing crshelton's quote to me and my stuff to you? I don't think I could have done that - but sorry if I did.

Its all good, glad tovsee another lever shoter. Letvus know how it works out for you.

Thanks Buckeye, yes, it looks a little less weird now. Though it does give my spiel another outing, maybe you could just delete it, to save confusion.

While I'm at it, could I ask a question of crshelton or others who may know the answer:

Those Marble tang sights appear to be sold sans screws and my brief glance has not told me exactly which ones I should order; can anyone nail down the screws I'll need?

IIRC, the tang sight came with needed longer screw. I saved the box and instructions and will try to locate and check.
You could possibly ask about that on the Marbles web site?

WRT stock work - my gunmaker/hunter friend took the 1886 45-90 to Africa to test bullets on a PAC hunt and the rifle fell from a fast moving hunting vehicle on a dirt/gravel road, making dents and scratches in the stock. While he was repairing these, he also removed wood from the comb to allow the sight to lay back all the way. That is all I know about that, except that the fall from the vehicle did not adversely affect the function or accuracy of the rifle.
Rough treatment is common with hard hunted rifles and that is the reason that most of my "go to guns" are not super grade or Deluxe models.

Now you mention it, CR, yes, some firms do include the screws, others don't but charge an extra $8 or so for them. I have tracked down the Marbles part number for one screw - but they seem to ignore the other one in that list.

Do we have to drill either or both the screw holes as per the Marbles website? I had assumed the big bolt to be a longer version of an existing one through the tang.

That aside, the companies that have the sights in stock don't appear to trade in Australia and Brownells don't seem to list that tang sight in their OZ offerings. Even their US list seems deficient at the moment, otherwise I'd try to tickle their system.

Sambarman,
I located the box that the Marbles Peep Tang sight came in from Brownells.
It cost $132.99 about 10 years ago. For the Moruku made 1886 with tang safety, only one screw is needed and that was provided. It is slightly longer than the original screw that it replaces.
I had my peep tang and barrel sight installed by a local gunsmith for a modest fee and IIRC did not need to replace the front sight.

While perusing the Marbles web site just now, I noticed that they also make a replacement for the factory barrel sight that appears to have an aperture; I have not used one of those, but some other makers of sights make aperture sights to be mounted out on the barrel.

PS on the "lawyers safety" on MIroku 1886 and 1895 rifle- they are no problem for me as I grew up shooting double shotguns with tang safeties. IMHO, if a shooter can not handle cocking a hammer AND slipping a safety without becoming hopelessly confused, they can carry the piece "cocked and locked" which is functionally the same as using a hammerless rifle. Or he can just leave the safety on fire/off and mess with the hammer as needed.
Beyond that, it is all a matter of personal preference whether to keep the safety or to have it removed.

WRT the ele loads - they were loaded by Grizzly Cartridge to be sure they were powerful and safe!
Plus we were out of time prepping for the PAC hunt.

Ive never found the cresent butt plate to be horrible kickers if you place them properly in the cleft of the shoulder, or at least no different than a Neidner steel butt plate or any other steel butt plate like my English rifles some in big bore calibers..Held properly they work just fine after one gets over the mental fear much played upon by others..As a famous gunsmith once told me a recoil pad serves only to give the gun a one inch run at the shoulder, may be some truth to that. One of the nicest 404s I ever owned had a steel butt plate and it never bothered me..A Silvers pad is as hard as any steel butt plate and lots of big bores have them, some leather covered and the masses never know the difference, go figure.

Thanks CR and Ray,
my consternation goes on. Brownell seems not to have the sight I need here or over there. Buffalo Arms seem happy to ship me one, ours being viewed as a friendly country, but I'm not too sure of the reception something part-looking that screws directly on might get here. A scope, on the other hand, is obviously not a gun part and can be bought at any outdoors shop, without need of a licence.

That barrel peep would probably work OK up to a point but may miss on authenticity.

My father's old 12G db shotgun has a smooth steel buttplate and never hurt me, even when I was nine years old. Strangely, a similar thing on my little 6.5x54 MS really made itself felt - maybe a screw was sticking out.

I take your point about giving the gun a run at you, Ray. I'd used .22s for a couple of years but the first thing Dad told me about shooting that shotgun was: "pull it hard into your shoulder!"

The rifle arrived and she looks as new as expected.

Damned if I know how the lawyer's safety works because engaging it doesn't stop the hammer falling if you pull the trigger. I guess it blocks the firing pin but I can't see much sense in that.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
The rifle arrived and she looks as new as expected.

Damned if I know how the lawyer's safety works because engaging it doesn't stop the hammer falling if you pull the trigger. I guess it blocks the firing pin but I can't see much sense in that.

It blocks the hammer from hitting the firing pin.

I wonder if the intermediary bit would wear if abused too often?

BTW, I measured the length of pull and it's only about 13.3 inches. So, maybe a slip-on pad, dug out a bit top and bottom, would not make it outrageously long. If I give that a try, I'll also add some close-cell foam in the middle.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
I wonder if the intermediary bit would wear if abused too often?

BTW, I measured the length of pull and it's only about 13.3 inches. So, maybe a slip-on pad, dug out a bit top and bottom, would not make it outrageously long. If I give that a try, I'll also add some close-cell foam in the middle.

Don't know. I currently only have one rifle with that abomination on it, my 1895 Winchester in .405. I leave it set on "Fire" as it serves no useful function.
Sure, one can practice to cock the hammer AND push the safety to FIRE, but when 35 of your leverguns (not to mention all your single shot rifles) simply require you to thumb the hammer back, you WILL forget to take the safety off in the heat of things.

On an 1892 rifle I have, a previous owner took the safety off and soldered up the hole. Looks fine, but I still have that infernal rebounding hammer that has caused a couple of no-fires.

Yep, that safety is one of the dumbest things I can think of - much dumber than a bag of hammers .

Use of hammers and safeties in hunting needs to be spontaneous, consigned to our spinal cord and muscle memory by habit. To have a safety that you could use in special circumstances but would probably forget when the moment comes, makes no sense I can see - even the lawyers' logic escapes me.

Since getting the safety version of Marbles' sight here looks too hard, I'm wondering now if I might find a long-strap version that would simply cover the safety completely - if the strap was thick enough and a button-covering cone recess could be drilled beneath it.

Any thoughts on this?

No good? Well, what about this?

Could I take the safety button out carefully and replace it with a piece of steel filed to the shape of the slot, the holding screw placed in the safety-off position? This would fill the gap while not fouling the sight base but be removable if a subsequent owner wanted to restore the safety.

I notice that most forum discussion on the rebounding hammer causing misfires seems to go back 10 years or more. Is it possible Miroku has rectified this problem in more-modern production? The spring-back on mine seems pretty soft and even the trigger seems light enough not to need fixing.

Well guys, having bought dies and some 405gr Woodleighs, I took the rifle to the range today. It shot in line but needed the second step on the elevator to shoot high enough.

The only problem I've had is that the cannelure on the bullets seems a fraction too far back and even though crimping at the front of the cannelure and meeting the max COAL, the bullets touch the rifling.

The Starline cases measure 53.1mm in my ancient calipers, less than the 53.5mm length listed in Wikipedia but the only answer suggested so far is to shorten the cases by 1mm, which won't help powder capacity.

Any other ideas gratefully considered.

Buy a Lee factory crimp die. This will allow you to crimp the bullet in position without trimming cases.

Thanks JFE, my .45-70 dies are Lee and I see that item you mention at the bottom of the instructions sheet. Are they easy to find in Melbourne?

I don't suppose you know of a good gunsmith around here who might be able to add a bit of free bore to the barrel? All the ones I've employed previously have either died or moved away.