quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:
Saeed how about deducting the obvious flyers from the groups - I guess a flyer is an abnormality that isn't bound to the state of the barrel (unless it is the very first round from the clean/cold barrel?) - would it make any difference?

I am afraid I cannot do that.

Some ammo have too many fliers, and it will also introduce another element of my judgement in what can be taken as a flier.

This way I shoot to the best of my ability, and let the results speak for themselves.

I understand, it was just a guess. Many thanks again keep it up!

It will be interesting, once you are done, to see if there is any discernable difference between ammo with plated bullets and ammo with plain lead bullets as far as the clean vs. dirty barrel. In hand guns my experience has been that lead bullet ammo appears to build up crud faster than ammo loaded with plated bullets.
C.G.B.

I have shot 10 different ammo in the Remington 40X, at both 50 and 100 yards.

I have cleaned the barrel spotlessly clean, and I am going to repeat shooting the same ammo at both 50 and 100 yards, cleanning between each type of ammo.

I will post what results I get.

Saeed:

You must be traveling. I keep looking for more results with no luck. Be well. CAT

You are right my friend.

I am away for a while.

Have shot all groups without cleaning, and some with after cleaning.

I did not want to post partial results, and will post all the results once I am done.

aI just noticed this earlier post. Thank you, Saeed, for all your research on .22's.
On the surface, .22's seem so simple. In truth, they are amazingly complex and sophisticated. We always find so much that is difficult to explain.
Please continue your great research work into the intricacies and mysteries of the wonderful world of .22's.
I contend that no truly dedicated shooter ever out grows a .22.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
You are right my friend.

I am away for a while.

Have shot all groups without cleaning, and some with after cleaning.

I did not want to post partial results, and will post all the results once I am done.

Come on Saeed. Please. Thanks.

I have arrived back home early this morning!

Good news is that all shooting without cleaning has been done.

Most of the cleaning shooting has been done at 50 yards.

I have not had time to even go to basement where the shooting room is.

And I am suffering from withdrawal symptoms!

So my plan is to do some shooting in the next few days and I promise to keep you all updated.

The following test was shot with a Remington 40X 22 rim fire rifle, with a Bushnell Elite 2400 6-24X scope.

The rifle has been used quite a bit, and I have no idea if it ever got cleaned.

We picked 10 different types of ammo, and shot 12, 10-shot groups of each at 50 yards.

10 rounds of the ammo to be shot was first fired in the gun, then the 12, 10-shot groups were fired.

After that 10 rounds of the next to be test was fired.

This was done because we have heard that the lube of each type might make a difference.

After all 10 types of ammo were shot, I repeated the same thing at 100 yards

I have not included the 100 yards results here because I have not shot the cleaned barrel at 100 yards yet.

I have finished the 50 yards, so thought you might wish to see the results.

The barrel was thoroughly cleaned.

Then 10 shots of the ammo to be tested was fired, before the test was shot.

After each type of ammo was shot. The barrel was cleaned again, with patches and a bronze brush, until the patch came out clean.

Next type is shot in the same manner - 10 shots fired first, then the test was started.

I will post complete set of all targets once I have finished the whole test.

Group sizes below are smallest, largest and average.

LAPUA SUPER CLUB

Not clean 0.318 0.810 0.5070
Clean 0.302 1.064 0.5948

ELEY SPORT

Not clean 0.396 0.883 0.5239
Clean 0.512 1.221 0.7268

WINCHESTER SUPER X SUPER SPEED HP

Not clean 0.452 1.006 0.7213
Clean 0.634 1.513 1.1487

CCI MINI MAG

Not clean 0.365 0.959 0.5825
Clean 0.425 0.782 0.6612

REMINGTON HIGH VELOCITY

Not clean 0.602 1.024 0.7377
Clean 0.518 1.509 0.9928

ELEY MATCH

Not clean 0.204 0.602 0.3660
Clean 0.278 0.748 0.5058

ELEY MATCH BIOTHLON

Not clean 0.295 0.909 0.5680
Clean 0.514 0.880 0.7099

TOPSHOT COMPETITION

Not clean 0.367 0.749 0.5767
Clean 0.400 0.985 0.6114

LAPUA MIDAS PLUS

Not clean 0.204 0.575 0.3425
Clean 0.362 0.617 0.4397

WINCHESTER WILDCAT

Not clean 0.531 1.273 0.8738
Clean 0.477 1.131 0.7851

Thanks, Saeed, Very interesting results.

Now I don't feel to bad for not hardly ever cleaning any of my 22rf barrels unless I get them wet.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Now I don't feel to bad for not hardly ever cleaning any of my 22rf barrels unless I get them wet.

I think the old geezers who said you do not have to clean your 22 barrel were right.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Now I don't feel to bad for not hardly ever cleaning any of my 22rf barrels unless I get them wet.

I think the old geezers who said you do not have to clean your 22 barrel were right.

I am getting to resemble that remark.

Since you're shooting these the best you can shoot.

Don't you have a lock down rest? It would be interesting to see a comparison taking YOU out of the shooting. Lock the gun down and just cycle the shots thru it. This will prove just the gun and ammo.

Don't know about you, but, that much shooting would be getting to me enough it would affect the groups some. I know sitting much of the day just shooting 500, the first dozen or so groups are much better than the last few were because of the wear and tear on me.

And please don't go thru such an intensive tests as these have been. Ten 10 shot groups with the best shooting ammo found from the previous shooting would be more than enough.

Just curious is all.

Thank you for doing these tests and sharing them with us.

George

George,

The shooting was done over a period of time, so fatigue does not factor into it.

And as with everything we do here, we try to be practical.

I am not sure anyone goes shooting with a lockdown rifle rest.

Well, I am almost through.

I have 2 more ammo types to shoot, and I am done.

I have measured the groups - some look like they have been shot with a skeet barrel!! Well, almost anyway.

I have all the labels printed, and hopefully will get them done and photographed and posted in the next day or two.

Saeed, the surprise of this test to me is that none of the rifles you used have Leupold scopes. Maybe that's the problem with some of the flyers. Those Bushnell scopes, unless older ones, may not stand up to the recoil of a .22 rimfire.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Saeed, the surprise of this test to me is that none of the rifles you used have Leupold scopes. Maybe that's the problem with some of the flyers. Those Bushnell scopes, unless older ones, may not stand up to the recoil of a .22 rimfire.

You might be right!

The recoil on that Remington 40X is just unbearable!

I am having my right shoulder re-set at regular intervals during this test

I am sure I am not different to many of you who have been brought up on an air rifle and then graduated to a 22.

I lived with my grandad, who would never leave home without his rifle!

He used to give me a box of air rifle pellets every day. It was one of those yellow paper boxes that look like the Kodak films come in.

We used to put a handful of these poisonous lead pellets in our mouths, and as long as any left, thats is where they stayed.

How many years this went on I have no idea, but non of us has suffered from any of the ill effects of lead.

We used to shoot every imaginable bird we found, light a fire, and grill it.

All done, and I have posted the results at the top of this thread for convenience.

quote:

We used to shoot every imaginable bird we found, light a fire, and grill it.

That's pretty much how I grew up too. As long as I had enough money for candy, bb's, pellets and later .22 ammo life was good.

Thanks for doing the shooting and posting the results. Very interesting.

Saeed, thanks for posting the results of all your work. I shot International smallbore all through college with a Winchester 52D. My rifle gave about the same accuracy clean or dirty, but I found that from a clean bore the point of impact changed after about 75 rounds. As the full international match is 120 shots, that could mean a change during the match. So I just used the rifle all season without cleaning and then cleaned it in the spring after the season was over.

i presume all the groups shouwn in the target pics were off a bench and sandbag rest...... the 1022 custom i have will group 5 shots all on top of one another at 40-50 yards off this type of rest...... the rifles favorite ammo is bulk packed federals....... all i've cleaned the bore with is a really tight patch pulled thru with a cable type cleaner..... i pull one through soaked in hoppes and then one dry and finish with one soaked in remoil to keep the rust out......

Local fanatical bench rest shooter swears that one MUST clean the 22 bore religiously or accuracy will suffer greatly?? The numbers shown do not show that to be the case and from my personal experience having shot both Win. 52's and 40X's for number of years only cleaned them when shooting season was over and put away for the winter. The cleaning routine can do more harm to the bore at times than shooting them fouled.

I only clean the bore when the accuracy drops off but clean the chamber, bolt & receiver much more often. Thanks for taking the time to do all this testing.

I decided long ago my 22 never needed to be cleaned, and my dad and granddad told me that also...

Basically what Ive done is run a boresnake thru them once or twice about every year or two.

I also think you can ruin a big bore by over cleaning it, Cleaning rods are the culprit of the throat.. I like the bore snake for my big game rifles, with a real cleaning once or twice a year..A bore can be too clean, and their has never been an animal killed with a clean bore!