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| One of Us |
most people on this forum will be on a guided hunt if they ever shoot a brown bear that's great because 2 guns are better than one. and all the guys who are arrogant enuf to think they are cooler than clint eastwood when they start talking about shot placement need to do a few jumping jacks before their next range session then let everybody know how good their groups off the bench were. big calibers are better on bears if you can handle shooting them. If your gonna be dumb, you gotta be tuff. | |||
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Absolutely agree. And if you've always hunted by yourself or with friends/family and it's your first guided hunt, it's hard to explain to the guide that saying "shoot now shoot now" over and over again is not helpful. It's like being on the first tee in a golf tournament with your partner saying hit it now, it it now! as you start your backswing lol Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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IMHO Re; caliber selection for brown bears. The hunter should be reminded that his bear is liable to be just as deadly as a man eating tiger, only three times as big. These aren't black bears. A certain percentage of brown bears, or grizzlies would rather kill you than run the other way. Most of the time they would rather avoid man, but sometimes they just have a grouch on, and it is absolutely incredible how fast they can be. Making it very difficult to place a well aimed shot just exactly where you want to. I killed my brown bear with a 375 WB. One brown bear, so I'm by no means an expert. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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I'm just telling you really honestly, none of us up here with any amount of experience around these bears think of them in any way as like a man eating tiger or being interested in killing us rather than running the other way. As to the -06, theres quite a few bears killed around here with the cartridge and it usually seems to work fine. | |||
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Scott, I couldn't agree more. Joyce once convinced a Sow and Cubs to turn around and skedaddle down the shore once when we were camping on Nerka by banging camp pots together. I did have her backed up with a .338 though. I remember the talk Larry Van Dale used to give to the TDY summer employees at the hospital about bears both Brown and Black. Don't be your own worst enemy. Never show fear and never run. "Treat them like they are large dogs". That said there is a lot of truth to an article about preparedness and never letting your radar down I recently read. I can't find it right now but there was a very good letter written by a BLM worker that was forwarded to me by a friend. The BLM worker was mauled by a Grizz while getting water from a stream near camp. He walked unarmed through thick brush near a noisy stream and didn't make enough noise to alert the bear he surprised on the trail. I can honestly say, most of use who do and have lived among Brown Bear have probably let our guard down and are fortunate not to have an encounter. Joyce and I just got back from packing Caribou out on a hunt on the Denali highway after dark with headlamps. A big chunk of that pack was through pucker brush and I needed both trekking poles for stability so no firearm at ready. Joyce had bear spray. We simply made a shit load of human noise and did fine. Luck? Who knows. Still here to type this. Cheers Jim ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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I have never seen a big bear shot with such a rifle. I have, however, seen a lion and a number of cape buffalo shot with one. Most of the buff were one shot kills. It was quite lethal. I would imagine that with the right shot placement and bullets that it would be the same on even the biggest of bears. Yes, I know it was not legal. No, it was not me who did it. It did work. | |||
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It is absolutely amazing to most folks what proper shot placement will do. And how unimpressed large animals can be by poorly placed magnums. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Nicely said....
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum | |||
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When Alaskans speak, Bill listens.  There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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I'm not going to post another pic of a 1000lb critter that my wife has slayed with her 300 Savage, I have a mod 70 in 222 that has killed numerous brown bears in the hands of it's previous owner on the Kwiechak Flats! I tend to use more than enough gun | |||
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But Jim, everybody knows women can kill game with smaller calibers --- that's why all men buy them smaller guns. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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We always seek the solution outside of ourselves to alleviate the blame of failure from ourselves. In the endless pursuit of understanding, most men are outraced. Those whom win are seen just watching, learning and not wasting time doubting. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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Not so sure it matters WHAT rifle you use for large bears...seems the 9mm handgun with hard cast is all that is necessary. After all, it is shot placement that really counts. Even the large bear experts say so. Glock should feel so fortunate. Razor Dobbs is not happy...he has been over gunned for years with that 10mm. | |||
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I recall reading an interview with W. Bell after he was retired in Scotland. He said if he had to do it over he would use the 30-06 with solids. Dave | |||
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Sure are a lot of Brown Bear inflicted maulings this year by those friendly bears you guys keep mentioning. I've heard of at least 6 or 8. "Man-eating tigers" was a bit of an exaggeration though, I would like to retract that statement and apologize for the exaggeration. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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So, were doing better. Made it thru 2 pages without a battle. :-) However . if anyone here has ever been hunted by a brown bear . Which I have several times. They will soon start wishing for a lot bigger rifle than an 06 . precise shot placement is not always available. . . It would be nice if the resident members on here would actually acknowledge that in different parts of the state , all things brown bear , are not identical. . I do think that brown bear in Southeast tend to be more aggressive. Maybe its the tape worms many bears get. Or the remoteness of the area. Combined with dense populations of bears. I don't know. What I do know is that the 416s and 458s have done perfect work for me and my friends . Where as I know of lots of wounded and lost bears by other friends and acquaintances that were shooting 30 calibre rifles. The only bears I've seen "flattened , deflated , dumped " were with rifles 375 calibre and above . I know of quite a number of bear that were hit with a very good first round hit from 30 calibre rifles that instantly took off like a scalded ass ape. Many of those probably died a short time later from those shots. But were not found until lots of follow up . And many were never recovered. Those are just what actually happened . Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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I hit my bear perfectly with a 375 H&H 300g A-Frame at 13 yards (quartering shot, went through front right shoulder, top of the heart, lungs, ended up as a perfect mushroom in the hide of the opposite rear leg, going through the bear diagonally). He rolled, stood up roared and took off into the brush. Made a lot of noise followed up and found him dead about 50 yards in the brush following a huge blood trail. I know Phil and others have had clients kill kill bigger brown bears (mine was just short of 9') DRT with 30-06s and 270s. Not sure what causes the difference, but my 375 didn't feel that big pushing through the brush following up.  300g A-Frame still weighs 299.5 grains  Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Not a grizzly, just a black bear, but I nailed this bear perfectly, from 28 paces, with a 400gr soft point, .416RM. Slug caught him just inside the shoulder, and went right through the heart. When the bear ran, I was like, "What the hell, I can't have missed!" Then I saw the blood trail. That bear ran 80 yards and piled up (which a lot of heart shot animals will do). Anyway, that's one example of a perfectly placed shot, with a certifiable 'large enough caliber', and the critter didn't fall on the spot.        And of yes, I PM'd Phil Shoemaker himself, to ask his permission before using that Sig'... | |||
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. I agree 100%. And then after seeing over a 100 more killed one starts to learn that precise shot placement is paramount , no matter how large a rifle you choose. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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I own several 30-06' and it is a great cartridge, however If I pay all the fees, guide, air travel and so on a grizzly/brown bear hunt could cost a non resident upwards of $20K. Now with that in mind if you wound a bear meaning non recovery you may have your tag canceled..hunt over or you'll could spent several days tracking. Now most guided hunts are 6 to 13 days or so. You may loose a couple days to weather and it may take several days to locate a shooter so it boils down to one shot, the $20K bullet. A more powerful gun always trumps a lesser gun assuming all else is equal. As exciting as it it tracking a wounded bear in the dark in a thick alder swamp wondering if it is dead or waiting in prey may be someones cup of tea but not mind, it is not fair to the animal or anyone else who could possibly be injured. I took my bear with a 375 and the bear just dropped so everything went perfectly and the animal was dispatched cleanly NRA Life Member, ILL Rifle Assoc Life Member, Navy | |||
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20k bullet....the shot heard around your wallet | |||
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I think Phil's point could be restated in Raamw's terms as, "If you have the chance for a $20K shot with me standing behind you, do you want to hit or miss? I want you as your guide to hit so bring something you can do that with reliably. A 30-06 with a 220 Nosler PT is fine!" Best regards, "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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My father was an assistant guide (carried the heavy stuff) for brown bear out of Stika in the early 1950's. He said all they carried was 30-06's with 220 grain round nose. I have his rifle, a 1917 with a very 50's stock, and half a box of ammo. If I ever get the money I will take it back to Sitka and see if it still works. Mark | |||
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I totally agree. Definitely not arguing ! Or disagreeing. A perfect kill shot is not always a perfect " stopping shot" However, we have had great results , stopping bears with thoracic hits from the 41 cals on up. However , a belly hit doesn't necessarily stop the bear. A guide friend out of Hoonah whacked a fleeing 9'+ bear 4 Times in very quick succession with his 416 Taylor as it ran past from left to right at about 75' . The bear had been hit by the client on the beach and the bear took off. Friend ran into the beach fringe and the bear had to run along the base of a rock bluff. Friend put 4 shots into the bear that he could cover with his hand . Very good shooting for shooting nearly as fast as a semi auto could. But with a Montana bolt action. . His problem was that he didn't leade the bear enough and all his shots entered just behind the diaphragm. 400 gr rnsp, at 2200 fps mv. I don't remember whether the bullets were Hornady or Woodliegh. He has repeatedly upended a good number of wounded bear with that rifle and load with central shoulder shots. Just that in the heat of the moment. He forgot to leade that bear. They did recover the bear in a short distance. But it wasn't the satisfying , bang, upside down kill. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Excellent point and post. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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I shoot a 400 Jeffries pretty well and that would be my minimum choice. A 458 win mag would make me feel a little safer though. | |||
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Sorry, I think that's silly. | |||
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More then one critter with their heart and lungs destroyed has ran that far. | |||
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A Brown Bear is considered Dangerous game. Both of the calibers are designed for Dangerous game. Why is that silly? | |||
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The last black bear I killed was just under 7ft, 284 Win with 160gr Barnes, diagonally right front shoulder to left rear hip. Bullet ended up under the hide opposite, went about 20yds. The one previous to that, 12ga #5 shot Super-X at 10 feet, out my back door. Musta been bullet placement, go figger. Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Cusom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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In the words of our dear friend Cold Trigger Finger, ";;;;;;;;;##Brown Bears aren,t elephants!@;;;;;;;;" Seriously, he wrote that. Sure, brown bears are dg, but so are leopard, maybe wolf? coyote? black bear, crocodile, bald eagles? None of them require the energy or bullet weight you seem to think is minimum from the Jeffery or .458. Many of the .30 cal cartridges are sufficient and as has been mentioned by folks with quite a bit or real, demonstrable experience on AR, the 30-06 works quite well. For no other reason than its what I had around, I've used the -06 and .338 on bears and in a couple cases quite big bears. I'm not a big game guide and as far as I know likely never will be. Honestly, were I to have a client or guest hunting for bear and they expressed the perception that the bears we have in AK require a minimum cartridge like you indicate, I believe we'd have a sit down, serious, sober talk about what exactly is going on and what the real world looks like in the light of day. Sorry, I know I am coming across a little to harsh, but these threads seem to get carried away more times than not and I do believe the internet generated fear and hysteria does real harm to Alaskans, the wildlife here and the professionals trying to do business in the Great Outdoors. If you want to use the 40 and 45 cal's, fine, I have too. Need them? Life depends on them? No. | |||
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Scott, So I'd have to beg to bring my 375 WBY? Another opinionated bush rat. You guys with real Bush experience just ruin it for all the rest of us. Cheers, Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Sorry I guess you have to LIVE in Alaska before your opinion counts......LOL | |||
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Slider, Scott is an old friend of mine and I'm just throwing a little poop his way. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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I was thinking maybe opinions from folks with Alaska and bear experience would weigh a little more than those with out. | |||
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I've hunt Alaska a lot over the years, and when I started hunting there the most popular chambering in Alaska was the 338 Win Mag. I also hunt Africa and just happened to have a couple of bolt action 375 H&H mag rifles built on CRF Mauser actions. One is a Whitworth,in a synthetic stock and the other a FN Mauser in a wall nut stock. I always take the Whitworth 375H&H with the synthetic stock because of the rain. I certainly would not use my dads 30-06 Mauser rifle as long as the 375H&H is available. I had to cover my mouth to hide my big smile when my dad was talking to a safari operator about a cape buffalo hunt. When the operator told my dad his 30-06 was not legal for cape buffalo in Botswana. I knew what was coming next! My dads eyes narrowed and he told the guy " The 30-06 will kill anything that walks, crawls, or flys and it will kill a cape buffalo just as well as anything that IS legal!"  My father thought the 30-06 was a real killer and would shoot the moon out of the sky. The operator simply told my dad he was right, it will kill anything as you say, with a perfect shot, but it is not legal none the less. My dad did not go with me that year, he went elk hunting in Chama New Mexico instead! I took my 375H&H and went with him. I have two 30-06 Mauser rifles, and one was the one my dad hunted all his adult life, and the other is one I had built for my sons to hunt deer and elk with. ....................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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I used a push feed Ruger .338 on a 9'9" square, 27 3/8" skull- bear with some very cheap Hornaday bullets at close range. Absolutely anchored him in place with the first shot and my two follow ups were just because he was still breathing and the rounds were in the rifle. I saw no need, no real requirements for anything larger then or now. Want to? Sure, fine, use whatever you like, its your hunt. Need to/ Have to? No. | |||
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I've only ever shot one bear, a black in Montana. Lived in Alaska a few years but had no desire to shoot a bear of any kind. Moose taste's better! The one I killed was with a 7mm Rea Mag. Front shot just below the chin looking at me. Bullet was a 140gr Sierra. Bullet didn't make it inside, took another shot and it wasn't all that big a bear. From that experience, I thin it's not necessarily the cartridge you use but the bullet you use in that cartridge! I'd go with a 7x57 but, it would be using about a 175gr bullet and range would be kept to 100yds or less. Don't have one now but do have a 308 and a 30-06. When up in Alaska we'd fish back in and alwys carried a rifle. That rifle was my 308 with a 200gr Speer hot core! I like 165's for most everything with it but when the animal get's bigger, ya need more bullet. A bullet that doesn't penetrate enough lose's. The bigger bore's do well due to the bullet's, they are generally always big! Big bullet, big Sectional Density! | |||
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I like that a lot! Thanks for the story about your dad.  Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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Slider, forget about it...you don't live in Alaska or shoot brownies for a living. Throw all of your common sense out the window..it means nothing. | |||
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