I posted this question down several pages in the .44 vs. .454 thread, but thought it deserved a thread of its own.
There is a new breed of short-barreled pumps that has emerged just in the past couple of years. I am wondering if these are the new "best solution" in a compact package to carry for protection in dangerous-bear country. Does anyone know of documented deployments of these arms in Alaska or other Ursus horribilis habitat? They would seem to make some sense, short of a more powerful lever gun such as a Marlin in .45-70 or .450.
While a gun like the Tac 14 delivers more muzzle energy at short range than the magnum handguns, it may not be as easy to deploy accurately without some serious practice.
And yes, I confess right up front to being a mostly clueless armchair hunter who has only been to Alaska big bear country once.

https://www.remington.com/othe...cts/model-870-tac-14

https://www.mossberg.com/categ...eries/590-shockwave/

While I was firearms instructor quite a few people injured and or broke bones in their wrist/arm from pistol handled 12g shotguns, takes a certain way of pinching that gun to your side to minimize damage. It is designed for close in work and does a great job but they are a handful, the only shotgun that people feared more was that steel collapsible stock 12g
Either case they are not designed for accurate shooting of slugs just buckshot since they don't have a butt stock to secure a perfect shooting position, try doing that with the collapsible stock and you will get cut and maybe break your cheek bone.

Raamw, I understand these take some serious familiarization practice to wield effectively.
Just wondering if they have a meaningful place in bear protection.

I have worked with some federal game rangers and they used 12g pump shotguns for bear protection but they have killed Grizzlies with 357/44 30-06and other gun with varying effect. Slugs are what you want but not the soft foster, sabots made for Dangerous game should either stop them for a secondary shot or kill the on the spot, don't forget a 12g is a 72 caliber bore

Most people that fish or site see in the back country will carry a large bore handgun, they are only effective if you are able to hit them in the right place but pistols are difficult to shoot especially in a tense situation and lack the tremendous stopping power of a rifle or shotgun. But people who have dealt with a brown bear charge and I am one of them whatever your carrying you wish you had something bigger. My situation was a bluff charge by a Brown Bear with cubs and the guide and I had 375's. when I went back to camp I told another hunter who had a 338 to get a bigger gun...and I am not kidding took 2 weeks for the hair on the neck to lay back down

Raamw, I believe you!

Bill,

Those types of guns have been around for many years. When I lived in AK you'd see a fisherman with one occasionally. I would think they might work best if the bear is nearly on you. Otherwise I'd expect them to to be wildly inaccurate because of the inability to aim them properly. As has been said I think these guns are best left to self defense with buckshot and the proper hold.

Mark

quote:

Dangerous game

Another point worth mentioning most bear encounters are because you walked up on them because they hunkered down when they heard you, they where sleeping or thick underbrush. That means close range encounters, In my encounter I was along a salmon river with extremely thick alders, we were snicking along the river bank which was meandering through the area so we could only see a short distance. I spotted the bear by itself coming our was. It was a big bear, the bear stood up and kept looking around, the guide said it either got a whiff of us or there was another animal around. Then 2 cubs came running to her, moments latter she again stood up swinging her head around and huffing, the guide said lets back out of here we hadn't back tracked 20 yards when she hit the ground running towards up, we got onto a bear trail and the guide and I ran probably 25 yards or so. We no longer could see the bear but the guide walked backwards covering our back trail while I walked forward. We never saw the bear again probably since she stayed to protect the small cubs. The guide was still concerned saying sometimes they try and get downwind to see what we are. We where lucky as her maternal instincts took over. The guide told me in over 20 years of bear hunting he only killed in defense twice, one the year before when they walked up on a carcass and the bear had backed away and laid down then when they got close it charged over as fast as it started.

If those pistol grip shotgun aren't the most pain full to shoot, there damn close.

Dave

Both the Remington and Mossberg linked above have addressed the "Pistol grip" issue. Those are not pistol grips. Your firing hand will slide forward but since the grip is in line with the bore, nearly, the wrist stressing movement is largely gone. Still a handful indeed but holding on to one of these is largely the Job of the off hand on the pump. That is what the strap is for. No comment from me about the Bear versus 12 gauge side of the question. No experience there.
For other soft skinned predators, I prefer Copper plated 4 to 6 shot, 1 1/18 ounce loads. Great Turkey loads make great anti personnel loads in a 12 gauge when used just like one would on a turkey. Doesn't over penetrate walls either.

I had the mossberg flavor and got rid of it. I'll likely not buy another.
There's no good way to manage a shotgun or rifle while fishing. Hands are full of flyrods and landing net or long gun, one or the other.
As I've mentioned before, my strong recommendation is using your brains, all of them. I am quite certain that a fun filled and very rich Alaskan experience can be had without any need for a bear defense firearm of any size or shape.
Simple and obvious methods like avoiding thick brush along side salmon streams at night, not feeding bears and not moving in to close for that really cool photo is a good start.
I wouldn't and don't carry an extra magnum supersized revolver. I usually have a firearm of some kind around somewhere and really think my Ruger 77 9.3x62 is a great bear gun even tho I've never even looked thru the sights at a bear with it. I also have both the full sized Springfield XD and subcompact in .45 and one or the other is generally around somewhere if not stuffed in a jacket pocket.
Because I use caution and prudence when running around out here I've only had one experience with a bear and I never even saw him. He stole my danged moose, the whole thing. I shot a nice big bull late in the evening, field dressed him and left him overnight while I went back to camp to eat and sleep. Next morning g came back, no moose. Found my bull drug back in the willows and buried. My partner and I shot the rifles some, revved the outboard jet a bunch, hollered and yelled and dug my moose up.
Bear never showed himself.
I think bear encounters are avoidable.

Scott, always happy to defer to an Alaskan in these matters.
Just seemed to me the pistol pumps are compact enough not to be too in the way when managing a flyrod, yet much more capable than the usual magnum handguns.
Jury is indeed out on whether they are just a toy or a truly useful tool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5hh0EpRy44

P.S. Still have that Remington Model 8?

quote:

Bear never showed himself. I think bear encounters are avoidable

Until one doesn't agree with that.

Ask Phil.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Scott, always happy to defer to an Alaskan in these matters.
Just seemed to me the pistol pumps are compact enough not to be too in the way when managing a flyrod, yet much more capable than the usual magnum handguns.
Jury is indeed out on whether they are just a toy or a truly useful tool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5hh0EpRy44

P.S. Still have that Remington Model 8?

Oh sure I do. I'm thinking more and more about loading it for a moose. I like the idea of calling one in close and then thumping him again and again with the autoloader. Sooner than later I intend to do my moose hunting " right" again. Plenty of time, wall tent, wood stove, good company, ( maybe my sweet little Violet, ).

I don't think I'd "defer" but I personally don't see the use of the short shotgun. I think in a bear defense scenario it starts way to close, ( feet, not yards,) and happens way to fast. If you're fishing, you're focused on fishing and not the surrounding countryside. Switching from flyrod to shotgun when the bear is within feet and closing the distance at 30mph won't work I think. If you are warily eyeballing the bushes for bears you're not fishing, right? My strong preference and suggestion is to not locate yourself feet from likely voracious bear cover. Having done that, I believe that the "bear defense" shot or shooting will be very close, so I'd like to get one well placed shot off. I don't see the super duper ultra mag handguns being a part of that either.

If you're hunting , well you've got a rifle in your hand, let's not bother with the pistol, camera, Hershey bar, Ginsu knife or nun- chuks. Let's just use the rifle.

Scott, makes sense. Marlin guide gun? Riot pump with ghost sights?
Hope you can put that .35 Remington to use on a moose. What a classic!
As to the pistol-pumps, this guy gives some very good reasons why this platform is mostly a waste of time. I appreciate his candor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlBKWYOxzMY

quote:

As to the pistol-pumps, this guy gives some very good reasons why this platform is mostly a waste of time. I appreciate his candor

I have shot both styles and see no advantage to pistol grip shotguns or the new style firearms.

I thought maybe a 20ga with a handle bar mount for my MC. Might come in handle for shooting a stray grouse now and then.

But then I haven't pursued it yet

Very interesting long talk on the Alaskan forum
http://forums.outdoorsdirector...Slugs-for-Brown-Bear

Good stuff, Raamw. Thanks.
That Dixie dangerous game slug looked like a good idea. I had been thinking Brenneke in this application.
Boddington discusses heavy buckshot loads in "Safari Rifles" -- but for very close range work against the African cats. He only cites a couple of anecdotes involving leopards -- much smaller critters than the Alaskan bears.

quote:

Boddington discusses heavy buckshot loads in "Safari Rifles" -- but for very close range work

At the ranges that buck shot well work as a stopper on big game, one needs to aim.

Might as well use a rifle if that rifle can be pointed just as fast.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlBKWYOxzMY

Check out this mess with the shockwave:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV9QoXy7ct0

Norton, I did not know Jerry Garcia was still with us.

Hahaaaaaaa.......yeah who knew Jerry was such a gun enthusiast!

Bill:

No experience with bears.

As a wild assed teen one of the other guys
had a double barreled sawed off 20ga with the
stock cut at the grip area and wrist strap.

We shot the lightest bird shot loads we could
find and it was a nasty SOB to shoot.

Finally playing with reloading shells for it.
We cut the crimp tops off and filled half the shot
area with molten wax, then dropped a couple
glass marbles in. Very little recoil compared to what we'd been shooting. Wicked stuff that
would blow 2" holes clear thru a railroad tie
fence post when about 10 feet away. Not accurate enough to get much further.

No way in hell I'd ever shoot a 12ga with full
buckshot or slug loads in such a gun.

George

6.5-8.5” Remington 870s were a fad up here in Canada for awhile as Grizz insurance (we don’t have SBR / SBS barrel rules here on non-semis), with a stock on they can be handy little guns when you can’t carry a rifle. But it falls in that awkward middle between handgun and long gun, not as likely to be ready as a handgun, not as effective and lower capacity than a long gun. Ain’t for me.

https://dlaskarms.com/product/...gton-870-shorty-8-5/

quote:

Originally posted by Angus Morrison:
6.5-8.5” Remington 870s were a fad up here in Canada for awhile as Grizz insurance (we don’t have SBR / SBS barrel rules here on non-semis), with a stock on they can be handy little guns when you can’t carry a rifle.

But it falls in that awkward middle between handgun and long gun, not as likely to be ready as a handgun, not as effective and lower capacity than a long gun. Ain’t for me.

Yeah, I'd have to agree.

Unless you're trying to be the "Mad Max" of the AK bush, the various SBS types - whether pump, semi, or SXS - are little more than apocalyptic fantasy toys. Short and sorta fun, yes, but they still require two hands to control (especially in 12ga) and aren't nearly as handy or as portable as a 10mm Glock carried center-chest in an AGH rig.

Ask Chuke ...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BriBGiDdiVk&t=306s

quote:

6.5-8.5” Remington 870s

The barrel at that length doesn't make it passed the mag tube of a standard 870.

One would have to reduce the mag length and relocate the barrel/mag retaining ring

Yep, they’re all over the place up here. One shop in particular (Dlask Arms, the link in my previous post) makes them as a production item. Then they were copied by others, 12.5” is the shortest you can go with a factory mag tube and barrel. Carrying handguns here is restricted to approved professional use / licenced purposes only and restrictive to get, and these micro shotguns fill the gap in some cases as a small bush gun.

Seems like a lot of trouble when 12.5 is short.

But each to his own.

Taking 4-6” off that is a massive difference, a 12.5” seems huge in comparison to an 8.5” for bush pilots and the like. That’s proportionally the same as a 16” carbine barrel to a 26” when comparing long guns is one way to think of it. A 6.5” holds 2+1, an 8.5” 3+1 or 2+1 3”. Still not my cup of tea, but they’re handy and small.

It’s only about 30 mins of work and a refinish for a machine shop like Dlask, about as straightforward as mods get that require cutting.

As I said each to their own.

Speaking for myself and having seen several hog and deer and a couple of bad folks killed or wounded with shotguns, I think the shotgun is a wonderful bird gun..

Gentlemen:

Shotgun ammo has evolved greatly over the years. Would I try the old style lead pellets? Only if my life insurance was paid. The new copper plated buck shot are a different story as are the Hevi-shot buck shot.

I have done some testing on boar hogs. It is rather astounding what these new shells will do at close range even to the thickest of shields. I am talking shields so thick that a 223 would not penetrate’at all.

Single worst gun I have bought is a mossberg shockwave in 12 gauge.

Impossible to aim and terrible recoil.

I would ban these as a public hazard

Mike