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Empty chamber or loaded chamber. During an earlier discussion on wither carry a load chamber or unloaded chamber safety is always brought up. It is true that a firearm that is unloaded cannot fire. One needs to decide what accidents an empty chamber would have prevented all of them if the firearm was never loaded. But then what good is it. If one is in the process of actively trying to kill game one has a loaded rifle. I found only one accident that involved a trip and fall causing a fatally. That person 16. Yoa who was walking home {not actually hunting) slipped on some ice the 22rf rifle hit the ice discharged striking him in the head Most firearm related actual "hunting related" accidents involve mistaken identity. Meaning they thought what they were shooting at was game. Those types have been greatly reduced by so called blaze orange laws many states allow other bright colors now. So, what type of firearm accident is carrying with an empty chamber trying to prevent. No 1 falling and pulling the trigger (none found) dropping and having the firearm discharged (one found) Also brought up was the myth that if one is shot one well die. According to the International Hunter Education Association, in an average year, fewer than 1,000 people in the US and Canada are accidentally shot by hunters, and of these, fewer than 75 are fatalities. А 9-уеаr аnаlуѕіѕ іn Wеѕtеrn Соlоrаdо rероrtѕ thеrе wеrе 725 bіg-gаmе huntеr ЕD vіѕіtѕ, аn аvеrаgе оf 80 реr уеаr. Gun-ѕhоt wоundѕ mаdе uр lеѕѕ thаn 1% (4), аnd thеrе wаѕ оnlу 1 fіrеаrm-rеlаtеd fаtаlіtу. Тhе mоѕt соmmоn rеаѕоn fоr mеdісаl trеаtmеnt wаѕ fоr саrdіас dіѕеаѕе аnd lасеrаtіоnѕ оссurrеd durіng fіеld-gаmе drеѕѕіng[25 Less the 7.5 percent of the people shot die. There are many “hunting accidents” most do not involved firearms. Here is a multicable year list of fallibilities in AK while pursuing outdoor activities https://www.akfatal.net/ By far motorized transportation is the biggest killer (flying the worse) Avalanche is high up there also. Using tree stands results in a lot of injuries. Firearms are on the very low end of causes. It is also true that motorized transportation can not move unless loaded with fuel or a firearm can not discharge if it is not loaded with ammunition. Both can not be used to their full potential with out being loaded with fuel or ammunition. So the moral of the story is if you really want to be safe don’t travel by motorized transportation. When hunting wear blaze orange or some other bright color if your worried about being shot. Having an accident while carrying a loaded firearm is so low on the list that it is significantly less. Below are some links if you care to read them. https://www.targettamers.com/g...accident-statistics/ https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/ho.../safety-topics/guns/ https://www.wemjournal.org/art...-6032(07)70198-9/pdf If you want feel free to do your own research as there are many pages of articles out there. By contrast there has been 7 fatal bear attacks in AK from 2010 to now and many more mauling's. So as always feel free to exercise your own free will and decide for your self what is more important. | ||
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Or you can actually listen to your Alaskan guide Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Unfortunately your analysis and use of statistics is flawed. Well known fact is you can make statistics show anything you want. "No 1 falling and pulling the trigger (none found) dropping and having the firearm discharged (one found)" That all sounds good but purely saying "falling and pulling the trigger (none found)" is meaningless as we don't know what proportion of firearms are carried loaded compared with unloaded. An unloaded firearm is not going to discharge if dropped so if all firearms were unloaded you would only ever have a (none found) answer. Now have every firearm loaded and safety off and see what the statistic would be for AD's on falling, dropping the firearm or even just plain carrying the firearm on a range of hunts e.g. alpine hunting, bush hunting, etc. Simply, the more firearms that are carried unloaded the lower the statistic will be for AD's Statistics are useless without knowing the base and numbers i.e. how many from a good representative number of firearms are carried unloaded, how many loaded and of the latter how many with safety on or off!! As a matter of interest for those that think it is safe to carry a bolt action with a loaded chamber but bolt uncocked i.e. firing pin resting on the primer, I have news for you from a first hand experience. I was not there but one of my employees was carrying his 270 Win rifle in just such a fashion in a creek bed after spooking a deer earlier and tripped with the muzzle of his 'uncocked' rifle slamming into a flat sided rock, resulting in the discharge of the chambered cartridge. Rock and bullet shrapnel down one arm, chest and leg and one eye taken out. His little dog in the pack on his back was fortunately looking out over his shoulder on the side away from the discharge so was unharmed. A painful and bloody walk out alone to his vehicle and a drive to a farm house where the rescue helicopter was called to pick him up. | |||
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Really some one actually carries a bolt action rifle in that manner. Same with carrying with a loaded chamber with safety off. Being stupide is always a recipe for failure. | |||
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Feel free to do your own study and publish it. But just saying mine is wrong doesn't make it so. | |||
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Yes, Phil - bearanoia is real. Antlers Double Rifle Shooters Society Heym 450/400 3" | |||
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Antlers, you are correct! BEARANOIA is real and in most cases not worth worrying about. Still there are places, and conditions where the HOTLOADINGANOIA is more dangerous than the Bears, Traveling in tight cover, with bear sign everywhere, where one can't see even a 10 foot Brown bear for more that six feet, with bear sign everywhere is simply asking for a mauling. There are plenty of safe ways to carry hot in those places. I can assure you in Africa you will not find anyone going into tight jess with elephant, or cape buffalo sign with a rifle with empty chamber, or chambers. I'm sure 458WIN gets a lot of very inexperienced hunters booking his Brown bear hunts, and I'm also certain he can spot the jerks very quickly, and in those cases I agree with him having some concern about the safety issue with them. However it doesn't take long to recognize the danger of them having a free hand in the decision of hot or cold. However to make it a rule for everyone in all cases is simply not needed! As I stated in a prier post I have traversed some places in Alaska where bear sign was every few feet, and visibility was no more than 10 or 15 feet. In that case I WILL be carrying HOT! ………………………………………………………………  Mac....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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If I may,..... Drawing a parallel between Africa and Alaska is incorrect. Ellephants, Buffalo and lions travel in plural, bears do not. The odds of pushing dangerous game in deep cover to invite a charge in Africa is possible, in Alaska, not so much. How in the world did we get to a place where the methods of experienced alaskan hunters and guides get skeptical disagreement from unskilled novices? I'd hope that the folks interested in coming up here would follow the instruction and opinion of the professionals they hire and ignore the boobs from the Midwest internet that can only YouTube their purported conquests. | |||
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I work on two very basic principles 1) All guns are always loaded 2) only chamber a round when a shot is imminent So if I am walking expecting a phaesant or a buck to jump gun is in hand and loaded. If I am glassing looking for a buck or walking into an area, chamber is unloaded. When I worked in Africa and carried a rifle in the Bush for protection, it had an empty unless I was in a situation where a charge was imminent. Now I admittedly I wasn’t hunting nor needing to get in close to dangerous animals apart from on a couple of occasions. One of my pet hates are Blaser owners who think that just have a decocking safety its perfectly OK to leave a rifle with a round chambered all the time, and worse not worry about about muzzle direction. Friend who runs a gunshop has had several blasers brought in that have a round up the spout, and have stored and transported through a city like that. | |||
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I guess a sow with cubs or yearlings never attack any one. | |||
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If you can safely carry a loaded firearm doing one you can safely carry a loaded firearm doing the other. | |||
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Define what you think a unskilled novice is. | |||
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I carry my rifle both ways. Usually, round in the chamber, rifle on safe. I am safety and muzzle conscious when hunting with friends and expect them to be the same way. If someone sweeps me with their muzzle, I immediately remind them about gun safety. When walking in a file (as opposed to side by side) I usually remove the round from my chamber. Particularly, when we are walking in rough, mountainous terrain or when doing so at night. I treat my shotguns the same way. I recently saw an episode of "Port Protection" on TV where a gal was carrying her bolt action rifle with the bolt completely open. That is a recipe for a number of problems. | |||
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Since the above post was aimed at me, let me tell you, so there is no misunderstanding, I am not an UNSKILLED NOVICE where Alaska and Canada, and Africa are concerned, or hunting of dangerous game for that matter. I also know that living in Alaska makes a person no more knowledgeable than anyone else where hunting is concerned. …………………………………………………..Over & out! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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ALL of the arguments for carrying hot (a snap shot may be required, chambering while mounting takes too long, a bear may charge, if you are 'experienced' you can handle it, etc) apply equally to using a safety. So, I ask you, should we walk around loaded with the safety off? Why not, if any of the above arguments for a loaded chamber are valid, we shouldn't use safeties either. I mean, that millisecond could make the difference! For the record, I carry with an empty chamber until beginning a final stalk. The exception is when crossing heavy cover with bears present or when bears are within 200 yards or so. When those conditions are gone I unload. In most of my AK hunting game was spotted a few hours before a shot, so plenty of time to chamber a round. If I was in a blind or over bait I'd have one chambered due to noise or movement spooking an animal, but that's about it. DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" | |||
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As Mark Twain succinctly put it No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot And I might also add, or a know-it-all who suffers from bearanoia Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Or like the democrats when the facts are against you start name calling. It is amazing how many can not understand math when their preconceive notions are threaten. | |||
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What is amazing, is the experience and vast knowledge the interweb has created. No real life experience necessary!  | |||
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It seems that in Mr Twain's case as well as here it's not name calling, it's recognizing the obvious. A duck that walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck and flys like a duck should be comfortable with the duck name calling. You don't see how that works do you? | |||
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Well, I can certainly see both sides of this issue. It's about feeling safe while hunting, for both the client and the guide/PH. I can certainly see a guide/PH's point of view. I would not want to hunt with a person displaying unsafe gun handling technique. Not only for his sake, but his employees under his care & responsibility as well. I can also understand a client who feels the need for a round in the chamber to feel safe/ready. I think the solution is for a client to find a guide/PH who shares the same philosophy of gun handling as the clients. For the record, I hunt with a round in the chamber, safety on, finger outside of the trigger guard, and my barrel always pointing in a safe direction at all times. This fact I share with my prospective guide/PH BEFORE I arrive, that is during the phone call or email communication while booking the hunt. This is NOT something to surprise your guide/PH with when you show up to camp. I have had guides/Phs who requested that my chamber remain empty during the general hunt. I understand their request completely. I inform them that I will not comply with the request, and that if that is a problem, I will find another company to hunt with. I fully realize then that I will not be able to hunt that wonderful area I had chosen, or with that excellent guide/PH I had also chosen, and that is OK by me. There are many places to hunt in this world. I feel both parties, the guide and the client, are correct in their decision. They simply must find a 'match' in the client/guide relationship and gun handling philosophies. If an agreement cannot be reached, the guide will lose a client, and the client will lose that hunt. No blood, no foul, and everybody's position is respected. | |||
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My question is WHY? Why does someone who is unfamiliar with the country, game and conditions likely to be encountered feel threatened by something a local guide says. Most of us, especially those with years of experience, consider a loaded firearm in the hands of someone suffering from an advanced case of Bearanoia to be more of a real danger. Are you assuming the guide has no idea of the dangers ? I can assure you that we are not suicidal and guiding someone with an irrational fear of bears, or anything else, who is carrying a load weapon does not install confidence When hunting in Africa and the PH says carry it hot. I figure he knows the dangers and do accordingly . Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Pride. People take it as a judgement on their competence and their egos get bruised at the idea the guide doesn't instantly recognize their supreme skill. The guide just simply doesn't realize who they're dealing with. Most of my hunting in 23 years in AK was solo, and I still carried empty, because I know how easy it is to slip, fall, posthole crotch deep through a tundra mat, fall wading a stream or climbing a shin deep scree slope covered in thorns, etc. Others obviously disagree, I just see absolutely zero to be gained for even a tiny level of increased risk. DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" | |||
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And Pride goeth before the Fall. And in our country tripping and falling is a very real probability. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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EXACTLY! USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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I had these three guys fishing with me this last summer. All were just perfect guys. The ring leader was a little Alpha, ( not in a bad way at all,) and asked me several times for absolute answers to his questions. I couldn't give any absolute answers. The water was very high, the conditions a bit different, so I repeatedly had to go with. " Well, we'll try to,......... and see if it works." It frustrated the alpha a little, but he also really liked it and said so. Towards the end of the day his reply to my answer was, " i like your style Scott." We ended up catching a lot of fish that day and he's spoken with me a couple of times now about trips this coming summer. He was a peach, I hope he does. I'm reminded of that story here because some of the participants in this discussion are looking for absolutes where there sometimes not only arent any, but it's in appropriate to demand them. | |||
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Having guided in Alaska for forty years and raised a family on our homestead, surrounded by the densest population of brown bears in Alaska for the past 33 years, I am not afraid to tell someone to chamber a round IF IT IS NEEDED ! Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Ignore the guide. Carry your rifle with one chambered, but adhere to all other protocols: safety on; finger kept outside the trigger guard, parallel with the barrel. Don't flick off-safe until your sights/cross-hair is on fur. Easy-peasy. "Only accurate rifles are interesting." | |||
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Mac: you seriously think guys plunking down that kind of cash are inexperienced? Exactly how many brown bear hunts have you booked in your life? | |||
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People hire guides for many a few of reasons. The biggest is they are required by law to do so. The 2nd is they do not have the skill to a hunt by themselves. They want local knowledge of an area with out spending years learning a area. The guides might have access to equipment, hunting areas they can not get themselves. | |||
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With over 5 decades of hunting experience in 7 states including AK a couple Canadian providences. I can tell you AK is not alone in having trip hazards. Crossing a fast rocky stream is crossing a fast rocky stream., Climbing loose rocky mountain is climbing a lose rocky mountain. ECT ECT. If you don't feel safe doing those things having a round in the chamber. Carry with out one. But the danger of carrying a loaded fire is there. But a responsible firearm carriers acknowledge it. Just as the same for any other piece of equipment one uses. If one isn't using the same I have to be extra safe mindset with all your equipment. That have over time have been proven to be more dangerous. Yes more people die and are injured using motorized transportation then firearms. One is not being honest with ones self. | |||
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Reasonable question. My personal belief: Hunting alone- Rifle unloaded while hiking and glassing. Rifle chambered while stalking. Hunting with a guide anywhere in the world- Rifle unloaded until the guide tells me to chamber. When in doubt, I ask. Hunting with friends- No loaded rifles anywhere unless the barrel is pointed at an animal. No injuries or accidents so far. Ski+3 Whitefish, MT | |||
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Ski+3, Congratulations on a hunting career with no injuries or accidents so far. That is truly something of which to be proud! I am 68 years old and have been a hunter all of my life. I too, have had no injuries or accidents so far... | |||
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This experience is what I am paying for when I book a hunt. So, let’s see.... hire an expert, then don’t take his advice? Pardon me, if I chuckle. If I am hunting or fishing with a pro, I am throwing my money away if I don’t follow his or her expert opinion. You hopefully do it with your accounting firm, why would this be different? | |||
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AZWriter, I think there has been some misunderstanding of what UN-LOADED and EMPTY CHAMBER means. What I call UNLOADED is an EMPTY RIFLE, and an EMPTY CHAMBER is a far different thing. Like anyone else I carry my bolt rifle CHAMBER EMPTY, till I get into tight cover where there is fresh sign of bear activity. Then BEFORE entering that tight cover I chamber a round with my rifle in hand with safety on. As I stated earlier I have been in alder thickets where the actual smell of browny and dead animals is so thick you could cut it with a dull knife. The one I mentioned earlier turned out to be a half eaten Moose that a browny had covered with moss. I can assure you my rifle had a round in the chamber with safety on, with my thumb on the safety and finger off the trigger. We floated the Mulchatna river from Half Cabin Lake to OVERLOOK mountain hunting all the way every few miles then back to the river for another jump. We weren't hunting Brown bear, but the bears didn't know that. That being said, It makes no difference where I'm hunting if there are dangerous game in the area my rifle is always loaded with a magazine full, and chamber empty if I am using a bolt rifle, however when I go into tight cover the chamber gets loaded and the rifle in my hands, not on a sling. I'm 83 years old and have been hunting all my life from the age of six yours,when I got my first rifle, a Win mod 67 .22 lr and have never accidently fired a fire arm in my life, and I don't point my rifle at any thing I don't intend shooting. I unload the chamber. or chambers before crossing stream, or climbing steep hills or river banks. You don't have to be hunting brown bear to accidently stumble onto them, no more that when hunting plains game in Africa, to stumble onto an elephant or cape buffalo in thick jess. The same goes for any place where vision is short, and sign is evident. ANYONE who doesn't take note of what may be around the next bush is IMO an idiot. I have hunted Alaska, Canada and even mountains of the lower 48 where Grizz were pleantyful for most of the last 30 years, most of that in Alaska, and the number of mauling's are mostly citizens of Alaska, not lower 48, that are hunting Caribou, and moose and stumble onto a grizz that is sitting on a kill he is guarding. ……………………………………… I have every respect for the seasoned guides like Phil, and I'm sure he gets a lot of people who have the money to hire him to hunt Brown bear. Many of who have never hunted anything bigger than a white tail deer, and had to be told every move to make, to avoid being shot by them, but I can assure you that is not who I am, but I love hunting Alaska, and have done so for many years without even one accidental firing of my rifle, and I don't think that will change, and I am not a child that needs someone to tell me every move unless it is required by law for the game I hunt. …………………………………………………………………………….Sorry for the misunderstanding on my part where the word UN=LOADED was misunderstood to mean UN-LOADED, not unchambered. OVER-and -OUT Mac I'm gone!....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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I often think about this topic and can see both sides. But after what happened to me on a hunt in Alaska, I have a different opinion these days. A few years ago I did a boat hunt in SE Alaska for Grizzlies. Most of the time we were glassing the shoreline looking for bears, we did do a couple stalks on potential targets. Other than the stalking, my rifle never came out of the case. I never chambered a round until we thought a shot might present itself. I'm cool with that, stalking a rocky shoreline is pretty open and there really aren't any surprises. However, there was this one time we decided to go for a long walk down a river drainage. Most of the time it was open but after a while things got thick. I have to admit, the pucker factor really increased as we saw more and more bear sign. I asked my guide. "you got one in the chamber". His answer was "no". I said, " do you have a death wish, we can't see 10 feet and we are on a bear trail". He said, "throw one in if it makes you feel better but be careful". Naturally, I obliged and the hike proved uneventful. As we headed back to the boat we saw a nice boar out in a meadow, he was rubbed terribly so we passed. We finally made it to a logging road which would lead us right to where the skiff was anchored. We walked about 100 yards and as we rounded a corner, BAM, spitting distance from a big sow Griz walking right at us. She was as surprised as we were and hit the brakes. I distinctly remember saying out loud, "you got to be shitting me". Instictively, the safety was off and my 375 was on my shoulder. My guide screamed "don't shoot". Not taking my eye off the bear, I said, "I'm not gonna shoot, but if she makes one move in my direction, she's dead". It seemed like forever as the bear stood there and looked us over, her head filled up my scope at 4 power. Thank God she lost interest, swapped ends and headed back the way she came. I stepped off the distance from where I was standing and where she turned, 15 yards. Thinking back on this situation and the demeanor of the bear, (had I not already been loaded), I would have had time to chamber a round. If she had cubs and was aggressive, the outcome could have been much different. Anyway, we followed the road to the beach and I spotted her and a nice boar. The boar must have been following her on that logging road. We decided to take the boar and the rest was history. I have to admit, I was way more nervous in the thick bush than I was face to face with that sow in the open. | |||
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People seem to want black and white, yes/no rules don't they?  Sometimes it's a good idea have a round in the chamber sometimes not. Phil's question seem pretty smart to me, and when hunting with a guide, that is exactly what I do. As for Blasers, the suggestion that the behaviour described is due to the rifle is ridiculous. A dickhead is a dickhead no matter what he is carrying. At the end of the day, or in sight of camp, or whatever is deemed wise in the circumstances, the rifle is unloaded - completely. The chamber is checked, whether there is a round in it or not. When is cased or put away, mag and chamber should be checked again. Make of rifle is irrelevant. The Blaser decocker is 100% safe - unless someone gets a bit itchy and pushes the de cocker forward, in which case it is no worse than a conventional rifle with a chambered round and the safety off. Someone carrying a loaded rifle around on a bus, or into a shop as described, simply screams "Dickhead" to me, not a rifle problem. | |||
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Of course there are times that having a unloaded rifle is totally appropriate. What the discussion is when one is traveling on foot. The act of loading and loading most likely causes more unintentional discharges then any other activity. The few I know about that is when they happened. Hammer guns are well known for that that is why we have push safeties on them now. | |||
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I haven't read all of this but enough to at least comment on my practices. My primary rifle only has room for 2 in the magazine and that's what I load. Never one in the chamber until I suspect I'm going to need it. In fact my rifle has countless hours riding in my backpack while I'm hunting. I've carried rifles for 10's of thousands of hours but only needed them to do there job a fraction of that time, why have it hot all the time then. Conditions and situations vary so much you need to use common sense and always error on the side of gun safety. An unloaded gun cannot fire so that is the safest way to carry one. Death does not lurk behind every tree up here, so to be safe I carry magazine rounds 99% of the time. Only when I feel I might need that rifle to go to work quickly do I chamber. Right or wrong, that's my way and anyone that hunts with me , that will be there way. And yes, I've also hunted all of over the world. When with a guide i listen to them, unless I feel it might be gun risky, then I cheat and unload. | |||
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