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Chuck Norris More Hype than Substance
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I remember reading in Ruark's "The Old Man + The Boy" that when he was a kid his Uncle Rob taught him how to break a beer bottle to use in a barroom fight.


Never mistake motion for action.
 
Posts: 15350 | Location: Austin, Texas | Registered: 11 March 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If this site would allow, I'd post a photo of Chuck Norris standing next to my lifelong friend, Kirk. The photo was taken in the late 70's/early 80's. If Kirk had not been born with dyslexia, you never would have heard of Chuck Norris. Kirk was about 8" taller than Norris. He was a much better fighter than Norris. Kirk began as a boxer and transitioned to martial arts. Kirk won the world heavyweight kickboxing championship in 1981 in Japan knocking out the then world champion with a straight right that he had perfected from his early boxing days. Kirk was authentically movie star handsome. He had done a lot of TV work. When his shot at fame came, he couldn't read a script. I've hung out with Aaron Norris, Chuck's brother, and Howard Jackson, Chuck's very close friend who appeared in many of Norris's moves. Howard Jackson was an authentic gentleman. It was impossible to not like him. Sadly, Howard died about 15 years ago from leukemia. I have not a single negative word to say about Howard Jackson.

Kirk is in the Karate Hall of Fame.

If you were to run in to Chuck Norris and ask him about Kirk from Huntington Beach, CA, he'll know exactly about whom you're referring.

Karate scenes in movies are choreographed. They're fakes and phonies. They are not real. And no, Bruce Lee would not have survived a round with Muhammad Ali. In fact, love him or hate him, Muhammad Ali was the greatest athlete to ever live. Foreman didn't win a single round in the Rumble in the Jungle. If it proved anything, sportscasters and writers were and are clueless of boxing. Ali was never afraid of Foreman. Bruce Lee was an actor. He wasn't an athlete. Mike Tyson was the most overrated fighter to ever step in a ring. Tyson never beat a single named boxer. I believed and still believe that Foreman came out of retirement to fight Tyson. Foreman would have destroyed Tyson. Buster Douglas didn't upset Tyson. Buster Douglas was a boxer. Tyson was a brawler lacking skills. He did have decent power, but nowhere close to top 10 power. Buster Douglas boxed and set up Tyson just like Ali did to Foreman. And Ali was the better athlete. If Tyson had fought Ali, he would have been lucky to see round two.

Kirk has told me that there's a reason it's called martial arts. He said a good boxer will whip a good martial artist every time. In fact, during he 70's when Kung Fu was all the rage among TV Kung Fun commandos, such a bout was held in Hawai'i. I can't remember the name of the trained killer martial artist. I believe the boxer was either Mondo Ramos or Danny "Indian Red" Lopez, both of whom were at one time world champions. They assessed each other during the first round. The second round ended suddenly when the boxer unleashed a flurry of combinations upon the hapless trained killer who wound up on his back,knocked out for a long time. Another trained killer I knew picked a fight with a starting NFL linebacker. The linebacker went full George Foreman on the trained killer. The trained killer's blood puddled on a college locker room floor. BTW, the linebacker had gone far out of his way to avoid the fight. The trained killer picked it. He paid a bloody mess of a price for his stupidity. The trained killer was about 20 pounds lighter than the linebacker. They were of equal age. I do not recall the trained killer connecting with a single punch or kick.

Kirk still does minor TV appearances. He's told me that if he had to do it over again, he would have stayed with boxing. There's far more money in boxing, and it it far more athletically demanding.

Martial arts movies are not real. Fight scenes are choreographed. Even Muhammad Ali would have had difficulty whipping two fighters at once. One-on-one is extremely difficult. Add another, and there's no way the lone fighter will prevail.

Chuck Norris knows he's was fortunate that Kirk suffered from dyslexia. If Kirk hadn't suffered from it, you would have never known Chuck Norris, and Norris knows it. If Norris is reading this, he'll admit it.

BTW, one of my concerns with Kirk's martial artist friends is that they were mostly criminals. They loved to intimidate the easily intimidated with their many degrees of black belts. They had penchant for starting fights that they knew they could win. Kirk was the complete opposite. At 6-2 200 pounds, Kirk knew that if he threw a straight right at an aggressor's head, he could have killed him. Two bouncers at a Huntington Beach, CA nightclub were jealous of Kirk because his Hollywood handsome looks drew attention from nearly every woman in the place, They foolishly tried to bounce him out of the club. Kirk has told me that his instinctive reaction is to box. A very quick punch to one's head put him down. Kirk didn't hurt the other bouncer too badly when he could have sent him to hospital. The bouncers had the audacity to call Huntington Beach Police Department. Because Kirk was a well known fighter, cops conducted an investigation that completely cleared Kirk of any crime.

If I were young and wanted to learn weaponless self-defense, I'd learn boxing. I would not rely upon a glamorized art to save my bacon.

Do not be fooled by mystical powers of voodoo. It's called martial arts for a reason.
 
Posts: 178 | Location: So Cal | Registered: 03 November 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by NormanConquest:
I remember reading in Ruark's "The Old Man + The Boy" that when he was a kid his Uncle Rob taught him how to break a beer bottle to use in a barroom fight.


Uncle Rob taught the boy how to die holding a beer bottle.

A beer bottle, especially broken, is a deadly weapon when used in a fight. If I were confronted by a broken beer bottle, I'd ask the assailant if it's that were last thing he wants to hold in his hands before he dies.

As an honorably retired cop, I can legally carry anywhere. But I live in a very safe city. I couldn't tell you the last time I've carried a handgun on my person.

I used to work with the prototype man's man cop. While off-duty, he had taken his wife to a hospital emergency room for treatment. Minutes later, Hell's Angels entered the emergency room. They attempted to intimidate their way to the front of the line. My friend called local cops. A rookie fresh out of college and academy arrived on scene. He told my friend he would need back-up officers before approaching the outlaw bikers. My friend pulled his 1911-A1 and told the rookie that he was all the back-up he'd need. You can figure out who won that one.
 
Posts: 178 | Location: So Cal | Registered: 03 November 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
In his heyday, CN did okay for a white man.

Unfortunately, he continued to make movies utilizing martial art skills that had degraded terribly.

Compared to real martial art experts, CN's lack of flexibility is down right embarrassing.

I have studied martial arts for several decades to include shorin ryu, jeet kune do, muayThai, and Tae-kwon do (which I have a black belt).

I have also lived in Taiwan and Thailand and have worked out with some amazing Asian martial artists.

Believe me, CN was mediocre at best on the world martial arts stage.

Anyone who has studied martial arts seriously, can see just how amateurish his moves are.


BH63


That's why Norris was lucky that my friend, Kirk,was born with dyslexia. Kirk was the real deal professional fighter. He was heavyweight kickboxing champion of the world. He's told me many times that a good boxer will whip a good martial artist every time. If fact, Kirk relied upon his boxing skills to win the kickboxing world championship.

A straight right to the head of someone from a ranked heavyweight boxer can cause death.

Sadly, too many NFL players suffer CTE. NFL players wear protective gear including the most advanced helmets available. Boxers wear gloves and a heavy leather protective cup. That's it. I wonder how many heavyweights from the Golden Ear of heavyweights (60's & 70's) have permanent brain damage.
 
Posts: 178 | Location: So Cal | Registered: 03 November 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
^
I guess it really is all in the eyes of the beholder.

Respectfully,

BH63


No. It's about sports knowledge and science.

There's a reason baseball is known as the thinking man's sport. It's a sport of applied knowledge and science.
 
Posts: 178 | Location: So Cal | Registered: 03 November 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Karl:


Basically what anyone who actually fights a lot, be it street fighters, pro fighters, club security, prison guards, prisoners or cops will tell you is 99% of the dojo traditional arts don't work very well in real life. They get cleaned up in seconds by a decent MMA, boxer, kickboxer, BJJ, even Judo and wrestlers take karate clowns down in the first two seconds. And if I had a dollar for every kungfu or taekwondo guy who got cleaned up by a strong guy with no training at school/clubs/army bars etc , well Id have about 23 dollars. Which is still too much. After teaching a self-defence course, (which in most militaries is only designed to drill a few basic moves to the soldiers, more just to gain momentum over an enemy long enough to regain your primary or secondary weapons before he does) what we would advise a class if they really wanted to learn how to handle themselves was go and learn one of the realistic full contact sports styles in their own time.


You're right. 99% of the time, it becomes a street fight. It gets far, far worse with dusted (PCP) suspects and severely mentally ill subjects. Severely mentally ill people seem to have inordinate strength for their size, probably attributed to their infirm brains releasing too much adrenaline. I was one of 4 cops trying to subdue a relatively small mentally ill male. For more than a few seconds, the outcome was in doubt.

With a dusted suspect of average size, Muhammad Ali would have had his gloves full.

Asps and PR24 are junk. Cops need to go back to third growth hickory batons. A baton is intended to prevent escalation to deadly force. A third growth hickory baton to a forearm will usually break bones, which is its intention, and prevent escalation. OC spray is better but requires conducive conditions. OC spray will end a hostile suspect's bad intentions posthaste. I like it better than Tasers.

Cops are under no obligation to use fist against fist. Cops are taught that a fighting stance is sufficient to remove his baton and prepare to strike.

God separated us from animals by giving us ability to think and predict. If possible, walk away every single time. The corollary is never surrender a tactical advantage. Fighting is testosterone on ridiculous display. The wise will not risk injury. Just walk away. Let the other guy believe he's won. It means nothing to you. Cops can't walk away. If they did, they'd be suspended from duty pending investigation for cowardice, which was a rules violation of my former employer that if founded could trigger termination. Hence, cops are equipped to not lose fights. Cops can't lose fights. A cop who loses a fight could lose his life.

This rule got me through my professional career: the bigger they are, the harder they hit, and little guys can hurt you, too.
 
Posts: 178 | Location: So Cal | Registered: 03 November 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I agree + will add, watch the little guy, he's the one most likely to kill you.


Never mistake motion for action.
 
Posts: 15350 | Location: Austin, Texas | Registered: 11 March 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Everyone is missing something very important here. The fight choreography of the 70's was very primitive. Regardless of the skills each fighter might have, if the person in charge of making the dance work for the camera is relatively unsophisticated, the movie will reflect that.

Fight choreography changed dramatically when Jet Li entered the movie realm. Chinese fighting styles lend themselves better to staged fights than the linear style of Korean or Japanese martial arts (I have 40 years in traditional Japanese karate).

As I have posted elsewhere, when Chuck Norris returned from South Korea, he immediately sought out my instructor (Soke Tak Kubota) to teach him to use his hands. Japanese fighting styles are formidable for the power delivered by a single punch, but this does not translate well to the big screen.

All styles have value, but it is the spirit of the fighter that determines the outcome of the match.
 
Posts: 195 | Registered: 05 October 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by ggruber:
Everyone is missing something very important here. The fight choreography of the 70's was very primitive. Regardless of the skills each fighter might have, if the person in charge of making the dance work for the camera is relatively unsophisticated, the movie will reflect that.

Fight choreography changed dramatically when Jet Li entered the movie realm. Chinese fighting styles lend themselves better to staged fights than the linear style of Korean or Japanese martial arts (I have 40 years in traditional Japanese karate).

As I have posted elsewhere, when Chuck Norris returned from South Korea, he immediately sought out my instructor (Soke Tak Kubota) to teach him to use his hands. Japanese fighting styles are formidable for the power delivered by a single punch, but this does not translate well to the big screen.

All styles have value, but it is the spirit of the fighter that determines the outcome of the match.


Guess you didn't see Indiana Jones, where he whips out the gun and offs the other guy. Big Grin

Grizz


When the horse has been eliminated, human life may be extended an average of five or more years.
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I think they've been misunderstood. Timothy Tredwell
 
Posts: 825 | Location: Central Alberta, Canada | Registered: 20 July 2019Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yeah, that was my favorite scene!


Never mistake motion for action.
 
Posts: 15350 | Location: Austin, Texas | Registered: 11 March 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Grizzly Adams1:
quote:
Originally posted by ggruber:
Everyone is missing something very important here. The fight choreography of the 70's was very primitive. Regardless of the skills each fighter might have, if the person in charge of making the dance work for the camera is relatively unsophisticated, the movie will reflect that.

Fight choreography changed dramatically when Jet Li entered the movie realm. Chinese fighting styles lend themselves better to staged fights than the linear style of Korean or Japanese martial arts (I have 40 years in traditional Japanese karate).

As I have posted elsewhere, when Chuck Norris returned from South Korea, he immediately sought out my instructor (Soke Tak Kubota) to teach him to use his hands. Japanese fighting styles are formidable for the power delivered by a single punch, but this does not translate well to the big screen.

All styles have value, but it is the spirit of the fighter that determines the outcome of the match.


Guess you didn't see Indiana Jones, where he whips out the gun and offs the other guy. Big Grin

Grizz



Yeah. The story I heard was the guy with the sword was a “real sword” person. He was pissed at the scene bc he was suppose to have this long fight and get more pay. Ford was ill and decided, “Why not just shot him.”
 
Posts: 4634 | Location: Somewhere above Tennessee and below Kentucky  | Registered: 31 July 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by NormanConquest:
As an addendum I have learned not to jump up in the theatre or living room shouting out loud that that gun was not circa to that time frame,etc.


I’ve never learned that skill.....then again....never tried.
 
Posts: 317 | Location: South Central PA | Registered: 11 November 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I used to think that Chuck Norris was all flash. Then I found out that he holds a 3rd degree black belt in BJJ under Jean-Jacques Machado. Anyone who knows BJJ knows that this is quite and accomplishment.

In addition he also holds a black belt in judo.

These are in addition to the karate that he is known for.

If you do a bit of digging, it is clear that he has dedicated his life to MA. His training in BJJ has lasted over three decades and he sure as heck isn't doing it to look good on camera.

I used to think that he was a joke. It's not the first time that I have been dead wrong.


Jason

"You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core."
_______________________

Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt.

Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry
Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure.

-Jason Brown
 
Posts: 5841 | Location: Nome, Alaska(formerly SW Wyoming) | Registered: 22 December 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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