I have flown far more than most both with and without guns. I thought I had seen it all. Yesterday proved me wrong .

I checked in, declared my guns, took them to TSA for inspection, etc. No issues . None zero.

I ate dinner and headed to my gate . I was sitting there waiting . I noticed a guy with a badge walk up. I thought nothing about it .

When I went to board , I had to walk right by the guy with the badge. He stopped me. As soon as he stopped me, two other guys with badges appeared . I am thinking WTF? They want to talk about my guns .

They ask for ID and my 4457 forms . Then they start asking me a bunch of questions. I realized I was being interrogated like a suspect. Trying to see if I had answers or if I would stumble all over myself .

Some of the questions include:

1- where was I staying ?
2- where did I buy the hunt?
3-how much did it cost?
4-how did I get the guns?
5-was I bringing them back?
6- what was I going to do with unused ammo?
7-had I been to the country in question before?


And on and on and one . Finally, one of these guys said I didn’t seem nervous. I told him I had no reason to be nervous. I hadn’t done anything. They let me continue boarding .

I have never experienced anything like this before.

Has anyone else experienced this?

City of departure and destination please. Were they CBP?

This was in Orlando. I think they were
CBP.

That’s scary

Wow. That’s not good to be questioned like an illegal arms dealer.

Safe travels and good hunting.

Anyone not experienced might be a little shook up being interrogated by 3 cops and appear nervous. Wonder what these guys thought they were looking for.

Mark

I should have mentioned some of the weirder questions. For example, how successful was my business .

I them I was a hunter. I could show them pics and videos from all over the world if they wanted to see them. They didn’t.

If I had to guess ,they were looking for people taking guns out which were not going to be brought back.

Well, you Are kinda shady looking.....................

That is very disturbing. I think that I would file a complaint about this. I would also contact your political powers that be and ask them to get involved. It sounds to be nothing more than harrassment, at its worst. There is absolutely no excuse for this kind of treatment from the CBP. None. I would get to the bottom of this, as others will likely get it as well unless it's not stopped. Sounds like gestapo tactics.

quote:

I should have mentioned some of the weirder questions. For example, how successful was my business

This question is beyond bizarre. I guess my first thought would be to tell them what they could do with that question. However, I am sure it would not help the situation

I got the XXX coming back through Miami from Córdoba. Take note, I was not traveling with guns. I was taken into a room with about 25-30 plastic chairs facing a CBP video on loop. No phone use, book reading, etc. I was the only one that appeared to have a US passport based on color.

So, after two hours (I can’t tell you the number of times I saw that video on loop), I finally get my name called. I was asked similar questions about my career, why I went to Argentina so much, Mamés and addresses of whom and where I stay there.

I responded that my frequency was subjective (I was going about 4x a year for 3-5 weeks a trip). I was working with a lodge and had a girlfriend there when I got fed up being an attorney. I know that being a smartass only complicates matters, but I offered minimal information.

In the end, they wouldn’t tell me why I was singled out. I did apply for Global
Entry right after without issue, other than the standard wait.

we had a similar situation at DFW this past March on Qatar. Prior to boarding three uniformed CBP officers walked into the boarding area with sheets of paper in their hands, these were photos of guys as they checked firearms as luggage. They found and questioned 5 or 6, I saw what they were doing so I got out my folder of firearms stuff (4457, invite letter, passport copy, etc.)but they did not question me. I didn't want to get pulled off of the plane so I asked one of the officers about it. He told me that I had departed with and returned with the same rifle a number of times so didn't need to be checked.
As we boarded the plane there was a line of CBP officers, both uniformed and plain clothes, along with two canines, which each passenger had to pass. These guys asked for passports and covid test results and asked where was our final destination, why we were traveling and when was our return date (I'm sure they already had our flight itinerary), we had no problems but our flight was delayed a bit over an hour while baggage handlers removed the baggage of nine people that CBP did not allow to board.We travel to Moz in about 3 weeks and I suspect we will get the same treatment upon departing DFW.

Do any of you, that have been extensively questioned,
have global entry? I would suppose that Larry or even Karl has it. If so, it would sound like it doesn't make a bit of difference.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Do any of you, that have been extensively questioned,
have global entry? I would suppose that Larry or even Karl has it. If so, it would sound like it doesn't make a bit of difference.

Yes, my wife and I both have Global Entry, we were lucky enough to get an interview shortly after the program started. Maybe it makes a difference? The Global Entry interview was another strange event. We drove to Houston to get a quicker interview time, no problems and pretty short interview, but on the way home a phone that we take on Safari, that only the lady that works for us and my kids have, rang…it was the CBP guy in Houston with a couple of follow up questions. Shows what they can find out if they want to.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have flown far more than most both with and without guns. I thought I had seen it all. Yesterday proved me wrong .

I checked in, declared my guns, took them to TSA for inspection, etc. No issues . None zero.

I ate dinner and headed to my gate . I was sitting there waiting . I noticed a guy with a badge walk up. I thought nothing about it .

When I went to board , I had to walk right by the guy with the badge. He stopped me. As soon as he stopped me, two other guys with badges appeared . I am thinking WTF? They want to talk about my guns .

They ask for ID and my 4457 forms . Then they start asking me a bunch of questions. I realized I was being interrogated like a suspect. Trying to see if I had answers or if I would stumble all over myself .

Some of the questions include:

1- where was I staying ?
2- where did I buy the hunt?
3-how much did it cost?
4-how did I get the guns?
5-was I bringing them back?
6- what was I going to do with unused ammo?
7-had I been to the country in question before?


And on and on and one . Finally, one of these guys said I didn’t seem nervous. I told him I had no reason to be nervous. I hadn’t done anything. They let me continue boarding .

I have never experienced anything like this before.

Has anyone else experienced this?

What you described happened to me on my way to Bulgaria from N. KY. I answered the questions, and then said, I have a Form 4457, I had signed bf arriving at the airport.

“I would like to see that please.”

I showed him, and he kept a copy. I make a lot of copies of everything.

I do too. It's only smart. I do it for everything anymore. I want multiple documentation.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Do any of you, that have been extensively questioned,
have global entry? I would suppose that Larry or even Karl has it. If so, it would sound like it doesn't make a bit of difference.

Yes, I have it.

My thought is that I wonder if this has anything to do with me going to Pakistan in January.

This creeps me out. Not so muh for what they did, but for what they could do: detainment, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Do any of you, that have been extensively questioned,
have global entry? I would suppose that Larry or even Karl has it. If so, it would sound like it doesn't make a bit of difference.

Yes, I have it.

I do not.

We have Global Entry and never had any issues except one anti-hunting CBP person in Houston kept asking me where the animals are I killed in Mozambique. I politely explained the process involving shipping and she asked again where the animals are? I reiterated the same answer then she asked how many I killed. Had to think about it for a minute but I answered. Then she said and I quote, "Don't you have enough animals to murder in Alaska?"

Larry/Karl:

Do you guys take names of these a/h's?

George

[QUOTE]Originally posted by larryshores:
I have flown far more than most both with and without guns. I thought I had seen it all.

I had the same thing in Dulles a year ago, they want to know "everything", that was none of their business.

I find it hard to believe that any significant number of travelers on commercial airlines are taking firearms abroad and leaving them there.

That is not how smugglers operate.

I hate to say it, but this seems more like harassment of lawful traveling hunters than legitimate law enforcement.

quote:

I hate to say it, but this seems more like harassment of lawful traveling hunters than legitimate law enforcement.

Agreed. Those affected ought to be contacting their federal representatives (U.S. Senators and Representatives) and having them raise holy hell about this. This needs to stop. There is no place for this regarding anyone who is travelling legitimately with firearms and already has the proper documentation. And, it sounds like it's spreading across the U.S. airports like a cancer. Until someone calls and challenges them on this, it will continue. Moreover, where is DSC and SCI on this issue? They ought to be raising hell as well.

quote:

Those affected ought to be contacting their federal representatives (U.S. Senators and Representatives). Moreover, where is DSC and SCI on this issue? They ought to be raising hell as well.

I did contact my elected representatives, even filled out their bullsh*# forms requesting assistance, never heard anything. Also, sent the then President of DSC an email describing what went on while we were still in the airport, never got a response. I didn’t think to contact SCI. The CBP officer I spoke with at the boarding gate told me the procedure was in place at other airports as well.

Considering your relationship with DSC, Karl, it’s discouraging that they didn’t respond.

Not much you can do or say when the Gestapo wants to interrogate you when you have limited time to catch a flight. If you didn’t have time constraints it would be okay to give it back to them in spades if it is your home town and you are connected with the States Attorney.

quote:

The CBP officer I spoke with at the boarding gate told me the procedure was in place at other airports as well.

What is their basis for doing this? That is the seminal question. Is it tied to Biden's attempt to stop gun running, gun smuggling? Or, are they just following the rules/law as on the books? (See below)


Conversely, would this have anything to do with it? See and read this from the CBP website:

https://www.ice.gov/investigations/cpi/quiz

Are you filing information (EEI) on your firearms and ammunition with AESDirect and obtaining an Internal Transaction Number? Are they wanting you to present that to the CBP, along with answering their questions regarding the firearms and ammunition that you are exporting for personal use?

Furthermore, has anyone asked Steve Turner at Travel With Guns or any of the other African Travel Specialists about this?

I also found this on the CBP Website:

"I am going hunting in Africa and plan to take a rifle and rifle ammunition; do I need to obtain an export license?
No, 22 C.F.R. § 123.17 allows U.S. persons to temporarily export up to three (3) firearms (rifles and/or handguns) and up to 1000 rounds of related ammunition without a license providing that they will be returned to the United States. However, the exporter is still required to make a declaration via the Automated Export System (AES), pursuant to 22 C.F.R. § 123.22(a) and submit the AES Internal Transaction Number (ITN) along with the firearms/ammunition to U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) for visual inspection prior to departure from the U.S. NOTE: U.S. persons exporting firearms and ammunition from the United States using a valid license exemption are responsible for knowing and complying with any foreign laws requiring an import permit or advanced authorization prior to transporting or carrying firearms and ammunition into the foreign country. Attempting to bring firearms into a foreign country without prior authorization or permission from the appropriate foreign officials may result in arrest, criminal prosecution, seizure of personally owned firearms and ammunition, and/or denial of entry into the country."

Moreover, this is also on the CBP Website:

"Can I use a CBP Form 4457 to declare the temporary export of firearms/ammunition rather than filing the EEI in AESDirect
CBP Form 4457, Certificate of Registration for Personal Effects Taken Abroad?

No. A CBP Form 4457 is used to register personal items (not professional or commercial articles) of foreign origin before traveling abroad to facilitate duty-free reentry of same articles upon traveler's return. This Certificate may not be used to declare the permanent or temporary export of firearms, ammunition or other defense articles (as defined by the United States Munitions List) which requires the electronic reporting of export information in accordance with 22 C.F.R. 123.22."

So then the question in my mind is - Larry did you comply with this part and specifically the italicized section:

22 C.F.R. § 123.17 allows U.S. persons to temporarily export up to three (3) firearms (rifles and/or handguns) and up to 1000 rounds of related ammunition without a license providing that they will be returned to the United States. However, the exporter is still required to make a declaration via the Automated Export System (AES), pursuant to 22 C.F.R. § 123.22(a) and submit the AES Internal Transaction Number (ITN) along with the firearms/ammunition to U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) for visual inspection prior to departure from the U.S."

The last part seems to be a royal PITA given the only interpretation I can make is a traveler now has to go to CBP prior to departure. Unclear as to how early that can be done but further reading shows that it has to be done "at the port of departure".

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:

quote:

The CBP officer I spoke with at the boarding gate told me the procedure was in place at other airports as well.

What is their basis for doing this? That is the seminal question. Is it tied to Biden's attempt to stop gun running, gun smuggling? Or, are they just following the rules/law as on the books? (See below)


Conversely, would this have anything to do with it? See and read this from the CBP website:

https://www.ice.gov/investigations/cpi/quiz

Are you filing information (EEI) on your firearms and ammunition with AESDirect and obtaining an Internal Transaction Number? Are they wanting you to present that to the CBP, along with answering their questions regarding the firearms and ammunition that you are exporting for personal use?

Furthermore, has anyone asked Steve Turner at Travel With Guns or any of the other African Travel Specialists about this?

I also found this on the CBP Website:

"I am going hunting in Africa and plan to take a rifle and rifle ammunition; do I need to obtain an export license?
No, 22 C.F.R. § 123.17 allows U.S. persons to temporarily export up to three (3) firearms (rifles and/or handguns) and up to 1000 rounds of related ammunition without a license providing that they will be returned to the United States. However, the exporter is still required to make a declaration via the Automated Export System (AES), pursuant to 22 C.F.R. § 123.22(a) and submit the AES Internal Transaction Number (ITN) along with the firearms/ammunition to U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) for visual inspection prior to departure from the U.S. NOTE: U.S. persons exporting firearms and ammunition from the United States using a valid license exemption are responsible for knowing and complying with any foreign laws requiring an import permit or advanced authorization prior to transporting or carrying firearms and ammunition into the foreign country. Attempting to bring firearms into a foreign country without prior authorization or permission from the appropriate foreign officials may result in arrest, criminal prosecution, seizure of personally owned firearms and ammunition, and/or denial of entry into the country."

Moreover, this is also on the CBP Website:

"Can I use a CBP Form 4457 to declare the temporary export of firearms/ammunition rather than filing the EEI in AESDirect
CBP Form 4457, Certificate of Registration for Personal Effects Taken Abroad?

No. A CBP Form 4457 is used to register personal items (not professional or commercial articles) of foreign origin before traveling abroad to facilitate duty-free reentry of same articles upon traveler's return. This Certificate may not be used to declare the permanent or temporary export of firearms, ammunition or other defense articles (as defined by the United States Munitions List) which requires the electronic reporting of export information in accordance with 22 C.F.R. 123.22."

Somehow, an administration was able to send firearms in a “Fast and Furious” manner to end up in the possession of cartels. I believe at least two CBP Officer deaths. I don’t think they provided further information beyond those two officers, but I’m sure they were used again.

There is no telling how many or why the firearms were provided to those across the border.

I was once young, but recall when arms were provided to regimes against the commies clandestinely. That worked out rather well, Haha!

I really hope we can clarification. Secretary Zeinke, was a hope, but ended up being a target, willingly or not, of what we don’t need.

123.17 was changed in 2020 and the firearms exemptions formerly found in § 123.17(a) through (e) were removed.

See this link
https://content.govdelivery.co...BP/bulletins/2851df0

There may be other regulations regarding the temporary export of firearms but not in 123.17

Something has changed for the CBP to be doing what they are now doing and I hope that someone can find out why. My information was dated January 8, 2021 and came from the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement website, under the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. Perhaps others will provide us with more information and get to the bottom of this issue.

I looked at the current regulations and the references to firearms have been removed that section now relates to body armor. The Exemption Update in the link is from the CBP.

Regulations often change and there can be interpretations that are easily missed. In this case CBP clearly knows the rule has changed but may not have realized the old regs appear elsewhere on their website.

If I remember the history correctly on 123.17 I think it was in regards to military weapons. It was in place during the several years that I took weapons out of the country for hunting purposes. For the CBP to have this on their site is misleading and confusing. 173.22 is for defense articles.

It did take me more than a few minutes to find this update. I don't take your response as an argument.

I got back yesterday.

I put my passport into the Global Entry machine . It didn’t show any questions. It told me to report straight to customs. I did .

I was briefly quizzed and told to go to an agent . Needless to say, I complied . The agent was asking me interrogation questions but there was a distinctly different tone. He checked my guns and that was it .

Before I left, I asked him why I was pulled. I told him that I had traveled with guns internationally countless times and I had never been pulled. He said he didn’t know .

This is the same govt that just gave the Taliban more weapons than every hunter in the USA owns ... way to go Uncle Sam. And we are not talking bolt actions here.

Seriously, the 4457 thing has always been a half-assed system. It only controlled guns coming into the USA, while there was almost no control of guns going out. I have never been asked to produce a 4457 on departure. Over the years, some well-meaning hunters have given away ammo or even guns to PHs as tips etc. without knowing they are breaking the law. Some zealous CBP bureaucrat decided that hunters are mostly white supremacists and thus must be actively involved in smuggling guns to Africa where they would be used against US embassies or some such nonsense. So they set up a "program" to enforce the 4457 thing by getting the airlines to produce a list of travelers leaving the country with guns. Then they do spot checks. They want to be sure you are a bona fide hunter and not a gun runner (yeah right).

Why they want to know about your business or income is just BS. Frankly, that's when I would have said "nunya".

I had a nasty run-in with CBP once returning through Canada. CBP does their thing on departure if you are traveling from Canada. Checked my guns in Toronto .. a double rifle with a set of shotgun barrels, and a Contender 45 LC pistol with a buttstock that I use for night work, heavens forbid with a suppressor that I leave in RSA, both not assembled. I produced the 4457 forms and they keyed some data into a terminal and checked my guns. Being take-downs, they were in a trunk not a traditional gun case. I was sitting in departures, sorting through my papers and discarding those that were no longer necessary, eg old boarding passes and the like, when a CBP goon shows up. The CBP guy fishes the papers out of the trash and escorts me back to the same place where I already passed muster. A bantam cock wearing a CPB uniform with some flashes on his shoulders appears and demands to know why I am throwing my baggage tickets in the garbage. Clearly none of them could read for these "tickets" were all for previous flights. They retrieve my bags from the conveyor and make me go through the SN thing again. I thought, oh shit, they are going to make a big deal of the SBR that is the Contender. Contender buttstocks actually state, on the recoil pad, that they are not to be used with barrels under 16". Technically, as long as you don't assemble it on US soil, you are OK. But no, they don't pick up on that, they just go through the SN/4457 thing again, and eventually the bantam cock escorts me back to the gate and wishes me a pleasant journey.

This is what happens when you put a small man in uniform.

On another occasion, I was sitting in departures at DFW and to pass the time, I was checkering a Parker shotgun forend. Just the forend mind you. Soon a TSA fattie does a fly by and gives me the evil eye. Some ninnie must have reported me. But he doesn't stop and that was it. Now I see, when I travel, that even "gun parts" are taboo.

Third occasion, I had a set of dies and some unprimed brass for a 577 in my carry on. TSA goon would not let me on the plane. Did he really think I was going to concoct some loads on the plane? Had to check the stuff.

I hate to say it but we now live in a police state. And it's going to get worse. In RSA back in the old days, non-whites had to have a "pass book" to live or even be present in areas other than designated "townships" after 6pm. You could only get a "Pass" if your employer endorsed you. We are about to see that here: "Where is your covid pass?"