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Wisner Model 70 bottom metal
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quote:
Originally posted by lindy2:
I think for the vast majority of people its difficult to swallow putting a $650 floor metal on a $250 mauser action.

Using this rational, why would anyone spend that kind of money on a stock blank? There's probably some cheap, cast bottom metal from Sarco/ GunPartsCorp/Brownells.


 
Posts: 669 | Location: fly over America, also known as Oklahoma | Registered: 02 June 2013Reply With Quote
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aesthetics
 
Posts: 2059 | Location: Mpls., MN | Registered: 28 June 2014Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by gunmaker:
quote:
Originally posted by Timan:

What's a "reasonable" price.

Had this discussion with Williams several years ago on another forum and if I remember correctly, I was instructed that his guards were the best available at any price and the price was very competitive. Anything over that price was unreasonable. Not too long after that discussion I seem to remember his prices just about doubling. Wonder why....


Williams “reasonable price”, to D’Arcy’s point, was possible because USRAC subsidized the first 1,000 units ( or 10,000...). I wonder what Williams numbers were for units sold to Winchester vs units sold to rifle makers/individuals.
 
Posts: 1235 | Location: Golden, CO | Registered: 05 April 2001Reply With Quote
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Where do the Jerry Fisher bottom metals for the Mauser 98’s and pre64 model 70’s fall into the mix? I am pretty sure Jerry Fisher is not machining his own brand of bottom metal?
 
Posts: 657 | Location: Western USA | Registered: 08 September 2018Reply With Quote
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I think Ted Blackburn was making Jerry Fisher’s round bottom metal for him.
 
Posts: 1235 | Location: Golden, CO | Registered: 05 April 2001Reply With Quote
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Anyone ever consider/ponder starting with either a high quality casting or a hammer forged casting that only needs 1/8"-ish of machining instead of a solid billet for both integrated mag M70 & one piece 98 bottom metal bodies. I have no clue how much (if any) time can be saved removing less metal. However, considering that this same hammer forged procedure was used on 98 Mauser bolts does beg some consideration. Does anyone see what I'm seeing? Thanks for your time.. Stuart, James, Roger, D'Arcy?
One thing I've learned about sales over the years is give the customer an alternative choice and they will tend to buy one or the other. Billet or forged? $650 or [650 - labor saved using a casting or forging].
I know of a small batch casting company a couple hours from here. I used them for a couple hundred aluminum automotive-related castings. Unit cost was less than expected.


Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can.
 
Posts: 5086 | Location: Near Hershey PA | Registered: 12 October 2012Reply With Quote
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I have often thought about all of the bottom metal that is already out there. Serviceable, but ugly triggerguards.

Maybe have some triggerguards cast that can be welded on to an existing mauser unit.

something like this one.
 
Posts: 2059 | Location: Mpls., MN | Registered: 28 June 2014Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by custombolt:
A $650 or [650 - labor saved using a casting or forging].

lol

You really think there's a pot of gold hidden in these floormetals . You going to pony up for the price of forging dies and minimum run quantities?

Why don't you spend a few weeks researching this new "mining" technique as it applies to the incredibly small # that will actually sell. I look forward to a bunch of quotes and estimates.

After you slay this dragon the next mythical creature in your sights will be custom stocks.

Why do they have to cost so much???
Can't they be:
made in china

CNC produced with massive labor $$$ saved

Genetically excreted out of a 3D-pooper

dip finished with a nano-plasmic water based low VOC polymer that's completely impervious to changes in humidity & temperature and looks exactly like a hand rubbed oil finish.

Checkered by trained termites that march to the latest greatest hits on chairman maos ipod

With all this $$ you've saved are you going to stuff it in an envelope and send it to your favorite custom gunmaker???
Or just buy another new Mercedes and later opine online about how frustrating it is that nobody builds custom rifles anymore...............


gunmaker
------------------
James Anderson Metalsmith & Stockmaker
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Posts: 1827 | Location: Western South Dakota | Registered: 05 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by lindy2:
I have often thought about all of the bottom metal that is already out there. Serviceable, but ugly triggerguards.

Maybe have some triggerguards cast that can be welded on to an existing mauser unit.



Why don't you buy a welder with all the $$$ your saving?


gunmaker
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James Anderson Metalsmith & Stockmaker
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Posts: 1827 | Location: Western South Dakota | Registered: 05 January 2005Reply With Quote
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In my free time I found a bunch of great deals for welders on craigslist in your area. There's also a bunch of welding programs to learn the trade.

Do you want me to supply you with the contact info?


gunmaker
------------------
James Anderson Metalsmith & Stockmaker
WEB SITE

More Pics on FLICKR
 
Posts: 1827 | Location: Western South Dakota | Registered: 05 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by custombolt:
Anyone ever consider/ponder starting with either a high quality casting or a hammer forged casting that only needs 1/8"-ish of machining instead of a solid billet for both integrated mag M70 & one piece 98 bottom metal bodies. I have no clue how much (if any) time can be saved removing less metal. However, considering that this same hammer forged procedure was used on 98 Mauser bolts does beg some consideration.


When you are making thousands or millions of the same part the upfront costs of forging or casting can be justified.

Only a few or a hundred, no way.
 
Posts: 526 | Registered: 13 March 2011Reply With Quote
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Is Swift Blackburn stocking any bottom metal?



 
Posts: 1209 | Location: Satterlee Arms 1-605-584-2189 | Registered: 12 November 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Timan:
Is Swift Blackburn stocking any bottom metal?
I sent Swift a copy of my renewed license and my tax permit back in Sept. Later, I talked to the guy that's supposed to be over bottom metal. He just wasn't very forth coming with any info, including what my price would be. I don't know, maybe he was just having a bad day.


 
Posts: 669 | Location: fly over America, also known as Oklahoma | Registered: 02 June 2013Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by gunmaker:
In my free time I found a bunch of great deals for welders on craigslist in your area. There's also a bunch of welding programs to learn the trade.

Do you want me to supply you with the contact info?


Can you sweeten the deal with offering free instruction over at your place? Big Grin
 
Posts: 526 | Registered: 13 March 2011Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug W:
Can you sweeten the deal with offering free instruction over at your place? Big Grin

You would have to work it off by wrangling the termites for a weekend. If there's too much time between marching drill practice they incorrectly speculate that they actually have free will and start checkering those silly looking fleur patterns with lots of ribbons and bows.

oh...
And you'll have to milk the murder hornets. My secret ingredient for my nano-plasmic water based low VOC polymer.


gunmaker
------------------
James Anderson Metalsmith & Stockmaker
WEB SITE

More Pics on FLICKR
 
Posts: 1827 | Location: Western South Dakota | Registered: 05 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Thanks Doug. I didn't realize demand was so slim on bottom metals.
quote:
Originally posted by Doug W:
quote:
Originally posted by custombolt:
Anyone ever consider/ponder starting with either a high quality casting or a hammer forged casting that only needs 1/8"-ish of machining instead of a solid billet for both integrated mag M70 & one piece 98 bottom metal bodies. I have no clue how much (if any) time can be saved removing less metal. However, considering that this same hammer forged procedure was used on 98 Mauser bolts does beg some consideration.


When you are making thousands or millions of the same part the upfront costs of forging or casting can be justified.

Only a few or a hundred, no way.


Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can.
 
Posts: 5086 | Location: Near Hershey PA | Registered: 12 October 2012Reply With Quote
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Thank you James for your professional insight.
I have no clue who you based most of your comments on.
To answer this one highlighted below, No. Just curious if ANY time could be saved by having to remove less metal.

Thanks for the laughs.



quote:
Originally posted by gunmaker:
quote:
Originally posted by custombolt:
A $650 or [650 - labor saved using a casting or forging].

lol

You really think there's a pot of gold hidden in these floormetals . You going to pony up for the price of forging dies and minimum run quantities?

Why don't you spend a few weeks researching this new "mining" technique as it applies to the incredibly small # that will actually sell. I look forward to a bunch of quotes and estimates.

After you slay this dragon the next mythical creature in your sights will be custom stocks.

Why do they have to cost so much???
Can't they be:
made in china

CNC produced with massive labor $$$ saved

Genetically excreted out of a 3D-pooper

dip finished with a nano-plasmic water based low VOC polymer that's completely impervious to changes in humidity & temperature and looks exactly like a hand rubbed oil finish.

Checkered by trained termites that march to the latest greatest hits on chairman maos ipod

With all this $$ you've saved are you going to stuff it in an envelope and send it to your favorite custom gunmaker???
Or just buy another new Mercedes and later opine online about how frustrating it is that nobody builds custom rifles anymore...............


Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can.
 
Posts: 5086 | Location: Near Hershey PA | Registered: 12 October 2012Reply With Quote
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As far as production time goes over the years I've been making changes to m tooling and programs to make my own bottoms. My methodology has always been to keep dedicated fixtures to the absolute minimum.
I use the parent material as something to clamp to until having it around is irrelevant, then I'm finished with it.
This photo shows one of my Satterlee Mauser magazines after the draft has been cut. At this point the part is held together by a 1/4 x 20 cap screw going thru the front pillar and into the parent material below, a spacer block goes in that area for fixation purposes, parent material in the back of the guard clamps and stabilizes the guard end of the part.
Machine time is 150 minutes to this point, one set up handles every size box I make as it relates to work piece coordinates and cutting tool requirements.
Different magazine sizes are accomplished by selecting the desired program for that product.
This photo shows the end of 3rd operation. Next is remove the front fill block and band saw off what remains as parent material from the back of the guard the cnc removes enough parent material from the back or right side of the guard to where it doesn't take a lot of time to saw that and free the assembly from the parent material. After which goes on a simple fixture to finish the guard box.
I have no idea how others have approached their magazines but I think keeping it simple without a whole truck load of dedicated fixtures is where one wants to be. This allows the producer to shift on the fly so to speak, because production orders in this sector look like this, 3-'06 , 1-500, 4-416, 1-Kurtz 2-375 etc.etc. there's no rhyme or reason to customer desires and stocking lots of parts in this day and age really is not an option due to low demand. The only other option is a super lean manufacturing approach to the parts. So to this point based at $75 per hour that part plus material and tooling is over $200 and there's still work to do, a floor plate, fitting, polish work, get it packed and to the post office. Fun....right?




 
Posts: 1209 | Location: Satterlee Arms 1-605-584-2189 | Registered: 12 November 2005Reply With Quote
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The comments on cost made me think of something Stan Baker told me years ago. "Many people have gone broke because they didn't have the guts to charge enough for their work"

Dave
 
Posts: 2086 | Location: Seattle Washington, USA | Registered: 19 January 2004Reply With Quote
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Stuart do you mean the trigger guard is not yet cut fully free of the stock in order to use the stock to hold? Or are you actually holding the side of the trigger guard in the pic above?
 
Posts: 7772 | Registered: 31 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by BaxterB:
Stuart do you mean the trigger guard is not yet cut fully free of the stock in order to use the stock to hold? Or are you actually holding the side of the trigger guard in the pic above?


Clamps on the back guard and parent material.





Again,
Keeping it simple. Not a ton of expensive fixtures, only what is required to control the cut and be rigid.
One trigger guard fixture holds every guard I make , I've probably got all of 1 hour in it.
Now; if I had lot of these to make, I would bolt more of these pods to a plate come up with a bigger program. However it is my though that the market for these is growing smaller not bigger, so why bother with bigger. Big doesn't exist here, here being classic wood stocked guns.



 
Posts: 1209 | Location: Satterlee Arms 1-605-584-2189 | Registered: 12 November 2005Reply With Quote
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Thanks Stuart!
 
Posts: 422 | Location: MN | Registered: 11 May 2011Reply With Quote
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Thats a creative solution. Thanks for the additional pics.
 
Posts: 7772 | Registered: 31 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Hello again Stuart,

Thanks much for that excellent pictorial essay. I'm certain that I'm not the only one who appreciates this information. We (here on AR) are blessed to have you and many other members who take the time to satisfy our curiosities.
Seems like starting with a cast base (as suggested earlier) instead of a billet wouldn't save a thing, possibly more work. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Custombolt.


Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can.
 
Posts: 5086 | Location: Near Hershey PA | Registered: 12 October 2012Reply With Quote
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The biggest problem with the custom gun industry is a LOT of talk, and very little action.

I've got bars of steel laying in the rack for bottom metal, but no one to put money where their mouth is.

I've got bars of steel laying in the rack for weld in 1909 trigger guards, but no one to put their money where their mouth is.

I've made bottom metal, "faster" than what Stuart describes, but I bought a $150k machine to do it. I plan on making bottom metal, but as D'arcy said, it is such a small market...

The Ed LaPour 1917 Enfield bolt shrouds are a great example. This summer I had 17 people commit to buying them, so I started the process to make them. I've started making parts and now magically like an elk on opening day they have vanished. Only two people sent payment.

I've looked at Forgings for several products. I can make the forging dies and a friend of mine has a small forging press. Even for small parts, it is just not practical. Mauser originally forged trigger guards on a 600 or 800 pound drop hammer. There are several forges within an hour of me, but it isn't feasible. Plus, holding onto a forging is harder than bar stock, even near net.

The custom gun market is closest compared to the auto market in the US. The customers want absolute precision, with the highest quality, the best available fit and finish, for dollar store prices. Problem is, the auto industry makes tens of thousands of vehicles a day. It is no wonder so many companies are jumping on the long range market. A friend of mine buys pre made components and assembles them. His suppliers give him 30-40% to markup the components. He net's more with less work, less knowledge (... he's smarter than me) less machinery, and less capital investment.

Stuart, my only hope is that with the recent flood of good used vintage guns coming from europe that there might be an increased interest in building quality custom rifles. Vice versa, since there has been a flood, and most of them are cheap, it just drives the prices down, but at least the availability is up.


Nathaniel Myers
Myers Arms LLC
nathaniel@myersarms.com
www.myersarms.com
Follow us on Instagram and YouTube

I buy Mauser actions, parts, micrometers, tools, calipers, etc. Specifically looking for pre-WWII Mauser tools.
 
Posts: 1468 | Location: Ohio | Registered: 06 June 2010Reply With Quote
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Another fine, hands on analogy concerning bottom metal forgings versus bar stock and of course the point about the huge gap between "interest" and true demand. Thanks Mr. Myers.

CB


Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can.
 
Posts: 5086 | Location: Near Hershey PA | Registered: 12 October 2012Reply With Quote
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This thread reminded me of a short write up I did a couple years ago.

https://www.gunboards.com/thre...ng-a-mauser.1031346/

Several primary documents are included showing not only the number of machines, but the forging dies and drop hammer, tooling, and the different fixtures and setups necessary. Jon Speed included a couple of documents to me as a comparison to see what Mauser's production looked like in the 30's.

I just invested a bunch of money barf in a new website. Used to be I could make my own, but no more! This will allow me to have interesting stuff like this on my website again and actually be able to put it on forums like Accurate Reloading. In theory. Supposedly. Everything is 4th or 5th party these days... seems like no one actually knows how anything works anymore.

(Thanks CB)


Nathaniel Myers
Myers Arms LLC
nathaniel@myersarms.com
www.myersarms.com
Follow us on Instagram and YouTube

I buy Mauser actions, parts, micrometers, tools, calipers, etc. Specifically looking for pre-WWII Mauser tools.
 
Posts: 1468 | Location: Ohio | Registered: 06 June 2010Reply With Quote
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Very interesting Fal Grunt. Much of the text was over my head, I must admit. Sure enjoyed the casting and die pictures then some.
CB


Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can.
 
Posts: 5086 | Location: Near Hershey PA | Registered: 12 October 2012Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fal Grunt:
The biggest problem with the custom gun industry is a LOT of talk, and very little action.

I've got bars of steel laying in the rack for bottom metal, but no one to put money where their mouth is.

I've got bars of steel laying in the rack for weld in 1909 trigger guards, but no one to put their money where their mouth is.

I've made bottom metal, "faster" than what Stuart describes, but I bought a $150k machine to do it. I plan on making bottom metal, but as D'arcy said, it is such a small market...

The Ed LaPour 1917 Enfield bolt shrouds are a great example. This summer I had 17 people commit to buying them, so I started the process to make them. I've started making parts and now magically like an elk on opening day they have vanished. Only two people sent payment.

I've looked at Forgings for several products. I can make the forging dies and a friend of mine has a small forging press. Even for small parts, it is just not practical. Mauser originally forged trigger guards on a 600 or 800 pound drop hammer. There are several forges within an hour of me, but it isn't feasible. Plus, holding onto a forging is harder than bar stock, even near net.

The custom gun market is closest compared to the auto market in the US. The customers want absolute precision, with the highest quality, the best available fit and finish, for dollar store prices. Problem is, the auto industry makes tens of thousands of vehicles a day. It is no wonder so many companies are jumping on the long range market. A friend of mine buys pre made components and assembles them. His suppliers give him 30-40% to markup the components. He net's more with less work, less knowledge (... he's smarter than me) less machinery, and less capital investment.

Stuart, my only hope is that with the recent flood of good used vintage guns coming from europe that there might be an increased interest in building quality custom rifles. Vice versa, since there has been a flood, and most of them are cheap, it just drives the prices down, but at least the availability is up.


Not a concern.



 
Posts: 1209 | Location: Satterlee Arms 1-605-584-2189 | Registered: 12 November 2005Reply With Quote
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