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Just a question on double rifles ??? are both barrels accurate to each other or is one more accurate and if they shoot different how do you correct the problem.
 
Posts: 112 | Location: northern lower michigan | Registered: 22 November 2013Reply With Quote
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Depends. Usually one barrel groups tighter than the other, but often not by much. Since the right barrel is usually fired more often it will usually group bigger than the left because it is more worn.

Key is the composite group that you get from both barrels fired at the same target. That composite group can be shifted left to right and up or down using the sights, moving the back sight left or right as needed and putting in a higher or lower front bead as needed.

If your composite group is larger than you want you can usually adjust if with different powder charges if you are a handloader. If you are not, or handloading doesn't tighten the composite group, then you need to send the rifle to someone like JJ Perodeau who can regulate it for a much better composite group.

Regards
 
Posts: 1318 | Location: Washington, DC | Registered: 17 March 2003Reply With Quote
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Depends and it depends.

A bolt action is quite simple. Take a thick heavy barrel thread one end, screw it into an action making sure its an even fit all round. Make sure bolt lugs are concentric and make sure it is properly bedded into the stock. Doing all this will mean you should get little tiny groups and you are able to consistently shoot out to very long distances. But trying getting that rifle to respond to an incoming charging wild boar or buffalo and all the accuracy matters not, as you won’t get it on target.

With a double rifle you have many different variables. But also lets clear up definition of acceptable accuracy. I have a combination gun to which i have added a 2nd liner barrel -Einstecklauf in the shot barrel and this is in the same 7x65r calibre. With the rifle barrel i am comfortable shooting out to 150 to 200m and I know its first shot from a cold barrel will go to point of aim. If take a second shot with that barrel whilst hot, it will go a bit high - say 2” at 100m. Wait for it to cool and its back to point of aim.

With the liner barrel - and with many modern doubles and combination guns they have four set screws on one of the barrels allowing you to bend that barrel so it shots go the same point of aim. With mine, with 1-4x20 scope and heavy ammo it shoots to point of aim at 80m. But when using as a double i am shooting wild boar at close range 40m or so. I am cormfortable that a quick snap shot from either barrel i am reapeatedly hitting a clay pigeon sized target or a moving pig target.

With most doubles you have lots of things going on. Firstly barrels are soldered together. When they were built they would be “regulated” so that the barrels shoot together. They also regulated with a firm grip with the shooter controlling recoil. Change ammo, weight of rifle, weight of shooter etc and they might not regulate as well.

Will this mean that either barrel has lost accuracy - no. But what happens as soldered barrel heats up it warps towards the join. Thats why my combination gun ( an over and under) starts shooting high. Most doubles are regulated for a right barrel then an immediate left barrel shot. So the left barrel is regulated to warm right barrel pushing it to the left.

Chances are the left barrel will shoot to the right if this is the first shot.

There is no reason why a double cant be used to shoot out to longer distances. But don’t expect it to work that way for both barrels.

Where a double comes into its own is for two quick shots, a quick and silent reload and two more quick shots.
 
Posts: 979 | Location: Scotland | Registered: 28 February 2011Reply With Quote
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I have one scoped double; a .450-400 ejector by Harrison and Hussey, made in 1920.

With open sights it willshoo 2" at 50 yards all day. With the scope added (Swarovski 1-4x) the grouping goes to hell.

Since the scope used for plains game and caribou here in Alaska and since I didn't want to re regulate it with a scope that would change the open sight target, I sighted in the scope for the left barrel only (the one I shoot first).

What I have is a very accurate open sighted double AND a very accurate single shot for long range. Easily a 250 yard single shot.

The right barrel with the scope is way off target. I have the best of both worlds.
Cal


_______________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
www.CalPappas.com
www.CalPappas.blogspot.com
1994 Zimbabwe
1997 Zimbabwe
1998 Zimbabwe
1999 Zimbabwe
1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation
2000 Australia
2002 South Africa
2003 South Africa
2003 Zimbabwe
2005 South Africa
2005 Zimbabwe
2006 Tanzania
2006 Zimbabwe--vacation
2007 Zimbabwe--vacation
2008 Zimbabwe
2012 Australia
2013 South Africa
2013 Zimbabwe
2013 Australia
2016 Zimbabwe
2017 Zimbabwe
2018 South Africa
2018 Zimbabwe--vacation
2019 South Africa
2019 Botswana
2019 Zimbabwe vacation
2021 South Africa
2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later)
______________________________
 
Posts: 7281 | Location: Willow, Alaska | Registered: 29 June 2009Reply With Quote
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As Cal says in his post above, the addition of anything heavy above the bore of a double will effect the grouping of both barrels, and usually totally destroy the group of both barrels. This is because the weight of the scope and bases standing high above the center between the barrels, in most cases, retards the muzzle flip of both barrels, and is most times only useful when the scope is zeroed for only one barrel. That however makes the double rifle a single barreled rifle from very near the muzzles to about any longer distance.

A double rifle that was not made with the scope attached and regulated with both scope and open sight shooting must usually used as Call just described. Not a good thing IMO!
The one thing that sometimes works is the addition of a Docter Optic red dot sight because it is light and will usually give decent composite groups that seems to be much better than with a regular scope.

...………......………...……. old MacD37


....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

 
Posts: 14634 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: 08 June 2000Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
I have one scoped double; a .450-400 ejector by Harrison and Hussey, made in 1920.

With open sights it willshoo 2" at 50 yards all day. With the scope added (Swarovski 1-4x) the grouping goes to hell.

Since the scope used for plains game and caribou here in Alaska and since I didn't want to re regulate it with a scope that would change the open sight target, I sighted in the scope for the left barrel only (the one I shoot first).

What I have is a very accurate open sighted double AND a very accurate single shot for long range. Easily a 250 yard single shot.

The right barrel with the scope is way off target. I have the best of both worlds.
Cal


Cal,
I have often wondered,why not just develop a load that would regulate with the scope on?


DRSS
 
Posts: 2277 | Location: MI | Registered: 20 March 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill73:
quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
I have one scoped double; a .450-400 ejector by Harrison and Hussey, made in 1920.

With open sights it willshoo 2" at 50 yards all day. With the scope added (Swarovski 1-4x) the grouping goes to hell.

Since the scope used for plains game and caribou here in Alaska and since I didn't want to re regulate it with a scope that would change the open sight target, I sighted in the scope for the left barrel only (the one I shoot first).

What I have is a very accurate open sighted double AND a very accurate single shot for long range. Easily a 250 yard single shot.

The right barrel with the scope is way off target. I have the best of both worlds.
Cal


Cal,
I have often wondered,why not just develop a load that would regulate with the scope on?


Excellent question. A couple of reasons:
I have been on many hunts were I switch between the scope and open sights. If I regualted the rifle for the scope the open sight target would be poor. Also, sighting the scope for the left barrel only will always be more accurate than a somposite two barrel group at long yards.

If this virus thing clears and Africa is open to hunting I am looking into elephant and lion hunt in Zimbabwe wiht the possibility of leopard and a hippo or croc. Having the set up I do allows for one rifle use if needed.

This has worked for me since the late 1990s on this rifle.
Cheers,
Cal


_______________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
www.CalPappas.com
www.CalPappas.blogspot.com
1994 Zimbabwe
1997 Zimbabwe
1998 Zimbabwe
1999 Zimbabwe
1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation
2000 Australia
2002 South Africa
2003 South Africa
2003 Zimbabwe
2005 South Africa
2005 Zimbabwe
2006 Tanzania
2006 Zimbabwe--vacation
2007 Zimbabwe--vacation
2008 Zimbabwe
2012 Australia
2013 South Africa
2013 Zimbabwe
2013 Australia
2016 Zimbabwe
2017 Zimbabwe
2018 South Africa
2018 Zimbabwe--vacation
2019 South Africa
2019 Botswana
2019 Zimbabwe vacation
2021 South Africa
2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later)
______________________________
 
Posts: 7281 | Location: Willow, Alaska | Registered: 29 June 2009Reply With Quote
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Bill73,
My first DR is chambered in .405 WCF. During my first few trips to the rifle range, I shot each barrel separately and confirmed that each barrel shot sub minute of angle, but the barrels were not regulated well. I decided not to keep using the 300 grain load used by the gun maker and go to factory Hornady 300 grain ammo at 2225 fps as used in my Winchester 1895 .405 WCF. Then,I had my .405 double regulated with factory Hornady 300 grain ammo at 2225 fps. Aaron Little regulated the rifle for me using the scope to provide better visual resolution and therefore accuracy.
The regulation group has 4 holes in less than one inch! That is two R&L pairs. Plenty good for hunting even small critters,much less bait for the .405 WCF! Knowing the accuracy of the gun make me much more confident when hunting with it.

Guess what? Using the express sights (touched up with a file by Aaron) with the scope removed, the grouping is larger due to less accurate aiming, but still very good for hunting at 50-100 yards.

My still-new-to-me scoped second DR is a .45-70 regulated with hand loads from a common loading manual which yields a 300 grain bullet velocity of 1,600 fps with a chamber pressure of 13,000 psi. The mild load kills hogs and deer quite well, BUT the regulation does not suit me. So, after a bit more proofing of the accuracy of each barrel and proofing with 400 grain loads, it may also be taken to Aaron Little.

Double rifles can be a bit more trouble than single barrel rifles, but they are a lot of fun when done just right!


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Posts: 2293 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With Quote
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Not sure how many DR I’ve owned over the years, most have been Merkels, a Heym, and an assortment of British and German guns. All the Merkels shot true to form with iron sights, but it got tricky after mounting a scope.

I now have an Alex Henry .500/450 finished in 1872. With iron sights, the left barrel is dead on, but the right barrel, and I’m sure due to it’s age and mostly being fired first, shoots a little high and to the right. Nothing a little Kentucky windage cant take care of. DR,s are a blast and a challenge. Nothing more satisfying that taking your game with a DR.


JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72
David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore
Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle
Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55
Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06
Walther PPQ H2 9mm
Walther PPS M2
Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus
And Too Many More
 
Posts: 1857 | Location: Chattanooga, TN | Registered: 10 August 2010Reply With Quote
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Gentlemen, let me make a suggestion here that may explain how regulations works in a double rifle. It seems to me that most who are new to double rifles have no idea how the regulation works. Most think the barrels are aligned exactly parallel looking down the bores of each barrel with the barrels in a vice looking down range at a target. The barrels line of sight down the bore will show you the barrels are set for the line of sight to cross before it shows on the target. The right barrel will be pointing to left of the zero on the target, and left barrel will be pointing to right on the target, in other words the line of sight through the barrels will be crossing. When these barrels are fired the barrel on the right will rise, and move to the right under recoil and the left barrel will rise and move to the left so that when the rifle recoils both barrels will be pointing on it's own side when the bullet exits the muzzle with the aiming point on the target where the iron sights were pointing when each trigger is pulled.
Now anything that changes the flip and rise of the barrels will cause a negative to the shot placement on the target.
In other words. the line of sight through the bore of each barrel shows to be crossing to the line of sight of the other barrel. but because of the muzzle flip on firing each barrel will print on it's own side of the aiming point on the target. This because when a barrel is fired it move up, and away from the other barrel while the bullet is traveling down the bore so that it is pointing at it's on side when the bullet exits the muzzle. Any thing that changes this flip of the muzzles before the bullet exits the muzzle hinders regulation. The heavier the weight of a scope and bases the more it hinders regulation.
If barrels were soldered exactly parallel the rifle would shoot very wide and high. And that is why the barrels will be line of sight crossing so that it will shoot parallel to each on it's own side of the aiming point This is called BARREL TIME. The weight of a scope, and the height above both hender the regulation that was built into the rifle by the regulator.

Hope this is at least a clear as Mississippi mud. Anyway barrels cannot be soldered parallel
and still shoot side by side on the target. Under recoil each barrel moves UP and Away from the other barrel to regulate.

……………………………………………………………. old MacD37 BOOM


....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

 
Posts: 14634 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: 08 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Thank you very much for the History of the Double Rifles I was always wondering how they would shoot for accuracy. Your knowledge is greatly appreciated.
 
Posts: 112 | Location: northern lower michigan | Registered: 22 November 2013Reply With Quote
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Double rifles are a lot like women. Frustrating and make no sense at all sometimes. They also require a lot of patience.

Many on here have more experience that I when it comes to doubles. All I can say is what my limited experiences have been. I have 2 Merkels and a Verney Carron. The small Leupold scopes I have on them do not appear to affect the regulation of irons vs scopes at all (once I found the ammo they like).

Safe shooting
 
Posts: 887 | Location: Wichita Falls Texas or Colombia | Registered: 25 February 2011Reply With Quote
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by SFRanger7GP:
Double rifles are a lot like women. Frustrating and make no sense at all sometimes. They also require a lot of patience.

And may I add they are expensive!
Cal


_______________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
www.CalPappas.com
www.CalPappas.blogspot.com
1994 Zimbabwe
1997 Zimbabwe
1998 Zimbabwe
1999 Zimbabwe
1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation
2000 Australia
2002 South Africa
2003 South Africa
2003 Zimbabwe
2005 South Africa
2005 Zimbabwe
2006 Tanzania
2006 Zimbabwe--vacation
2007 Zimbabwe--vacation
2008 Zimbabwe
2012 Australia
2013 South Africa
2013 Zimbabwe
2013 Australia
2016 Zimbabwe
2017 Zimbabwe
2018 South Africa
2018 Zimbabwe--vacation
2019 South Africa
2019 Botswana
2019 Zimbabwe vacation
2021 South Africa
2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later)
______________________________
 
Posts: 7281 | Location: Willow, Alaska | Registered: 29 June 2009Reply With Quote
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Yes, the kind of women who were burned at the stake at Salem in 1692. O
(Ok, for you historians, they were hanged)
But if you think there are hard and fast rules for double rifles, you will be wrong.
Here is one; adding a scope will affect regulation if it was not regulated with one at the factory.
I have a Krieghoff 450-400; shot 1.5 inches all day at 50. Put a Swar 1-4.5 on it; these are not light scopes; shoots 1.5 inches at 50 all day.
Chaps 9.3, I have had 3 of them; last one, added a Zeiss, don't make me go look at it but it is a large gray one; and the rifle has adjustable barrels; without adjusting anything it shoots slightly over one inch at 50, all day.
Others, didn't respond as favorably.
The rule is, there are no rules.
While I am here, I have a rule; I never shoot just one barrel. All my rifles have exactly the same number of shots through each barrel. Never hurts to pump another bullet into whatever you are shooting at, does it?
 
Posts: 17046 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by dpcd:

While I am here, I have a rule; I never shoot just one barrel. All my rifles have exactly the same number of shots through each barrel. Never hurts to pump another bullet into whatever you are shooting at, does it?

However, in the early 1900s it was a long way to go to get more ammo, that is if anyone had the one you were looking for. If not one had to send a letter to England, and wait six months to get it. So nobody wasted even one round that was not absolutely needed! Hence many old doubles have had many times the rounds through the right barrel than the left!

……………......………...……. tu2 old MacD37


....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

 
Posts: 14634 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: 08 June 2000Reply With Quote
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When will somone invent a reliable scope with two reticles and solve this whole problem with double barrel rifles.
 
Posts: 1312 | Location: MN and ND | Registered: 11 June 2008Reply With Quote
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My two double rifles each have a lightweight Leupold (1 to 4 variable) and givem me no problems.


NRA Life Benefactor Member,
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Posts: 2293 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With Quote
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Let's say you have a rifle that is regulated and is shooting less than a 2" group with both barrels at 50 meters with iron sights.

If you add a red dot, do you sight the red dot for the same POA as the iron sight or for the POI of the barrel you shoot first.
 
Posts: 1083 | Location: Southern CA | Registered: 01 January 2014Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by tanks:
Let's say you have a rifle that is regulated and is shooting less than a 2" group with both barrels at 50 meters with iron sights.

If you add a red dot, do you sight the red dot for the same POA as the iron sight or for the POI of the barrel you shoot first.


You move the red dot to the same aiming point as you use for the open sights!
Any time a rifle doesn't shoot both barrels to the same composite group as both barrels with irons and after mounting anything to the rifle, and when that addition is set to the same point used for open sights,and it doesn't, then that addition is negatively effecting the regulation of the rifle. IMO a double rifle is regulated to shoot into a common composite group, and if it doesn't, then I would remove what ever was mounted that was hindering the composite group. IMO a double rifle is not a double rifle if you have to aim differently for each barrel.
………………………………………...…......….. oldMacD37


....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

 
Posts: 14634 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: 08 June 2000Reply With Quote
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