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Is the 500/416 nitro express calibre on its way out , with the introduction of the 416 flanged by john rigby .
 
Posts: 18 | Location: Zambia | Registered: 23 February 2015Reply With Quote
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Neither will ever be popular DR calibers. Yes, it is on its way out and any new cartridge replacing it, won't last long either. No 416 belongs in a Double Rifle. Sure, some will be sold.....
Stick with a traditional DR cartridge.
 
Posts: 13325 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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Picture of cal pappas
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Yes, it's gone...almost.
The problem is with any new cartridge or caliber invention that does not become popular is over the years brass will begin to vanish.

It seems like many folks want to reinvent the wheel. Happens a lot in the bullet business so the new inventions take on stupid names for a hype factor to get attention but don't work any better than the prior offerings.

There are plenty of cartidges from generations ago that will work just fine and history shows they will continue to be here.
C


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Posts: 6593 | Location: Willow, Alaska | Registered: 29 June 2009Reply With Quote
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Thanks dpcd,& cal. Whats your opinion on 450/400. I ask coz max i hunt is buff, and want a calibre in double that is similar to 416 rigby or 404 jeff bolt action . They are lighter , and do not have that much recoil. Do you think 450/400 is popular enough and will be on the scene long enough.
 
Posts: 18 | Location: Zambia | Registered: 23 February 2015Reply With Quote
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The .450-400 3" will be here forever. The 3 1/4" version is older but not as common, and brass may be hard to come by. However, the ballistics are about the same.

The .450-400 will drop anything on earth. Larger calibers are fun but not really needed.
Cal


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Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
www.CalPappas.com
www.CalPappas.blogspot.com
1994 Zimbabwe
1997 Zimbabwe
1998 Zimbabwe
1999 Zimbabwe
1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation
2000 Australia
2002 South Africa
2003 South Africa
2003 Zimbabwe
2005 South Africa
2005 Zimbabwe
2006 Tanzania
2006 Zimbabwe--vacation
2007 Zimbabwe--vacation
2008 Zimbabwe
2012 Australia
2013 South Africa
2013 Zimbabwe
2013 Australia
2016 Zimbabwe
2017 Zimbabwe
2018 South Africa
2018 Zimbabwe--vacation
2019 South Africa
2019 Botswana
2019 Zimbabwe vacation

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Posts: 6593 | Location: Willow, Alaska | Registered: 29 June 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by late starter:
Is the 500/416 nitro express calibre on its way out , with the introduction of the 416 flanged by john rigby .

Just my 2¢: .500/.416 is a blue baby.....

My guess is the Rigby .416 Flanged will soldier on as a basically proprietary offering for Rigby aficionados.
No doubt Rigby will ensure ammo availability to those customers that step up to the plate and buy a bespoke double from them. Those guys likely do not reload anyway.

For everyone else? As Cal says, the .450/.400 3” Jeffery will take care of the needs of the rest of us.
- Mike
 
Posts: 296 | Location: Colorado, USA | Registered: 13 April 2017Reply With Quote
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Yep; 450-400 is the best DR caliber for most guys; certainly my favorite, (I like them all though). And John Taylor thought highly of it as well.
It will be around as long as we are allowed to have rifles. The new cartridges; not so much.
The 416 in any version is simply not a double rifle caliber; it is a bolt action caliber. Once you get that engrained in your brain, it can't be changed. And unlike new bolt action cartridges, some of which become popular even though they duplicate older rounds, the double rifle market is so small and the clientele is so savvy, new calibers can't, and shouldn't, survive.
Blue baby? Aptly put.
 
Posts: 13325 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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Darn worthwhile thread and excellent responses!
 
Posts: 2375 | Location: Phone: (253) 535-0066 / (253) 230-5599, Address: PO Box 822 Spanaway WA 98387 | www.customgunandrifle.com | Registered: 16 April 2013Reply With Quote
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450-400 caliber DR:
"The first double rifle one should buy and the last double rifle one should sell"

have owned about 60 total, now, down to 5
 
Posts: 628 | Location: Texas | Registered: 30 December 2012Reply With Quote
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Bought a Krieghoff 500/416 about 15 years ago. Krieghoff promised they would always have ammo for it.
 
Posts: 742 | Location: Vero Beach, Florida | Registered: 03 July 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Bwana1:
Bought a Krieghoff 500/416 about 15 years ago. Krieghoff promised they would always have ammo for it.


I load my own, easy as pie,I have both the 400 & the 416,like em both,the 400 is a good round but the 416 puts game on the ground right here right now, shot a buff that dropped where it stood,you gain an extra 1000 ft/lbs of energy over the 400.


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Posts: 2038 | Location: MI | Registered: 20 March 2007Reply With Quote
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i as well had a 500/416-
for the recoil,
i'd simply rather have a 450NE (or for that matter 470)

the flatter trajectory of the 500/416 round is a slight benefit at the longer distances that DR's may be used (esp. with an optic)

overall,
i have sold all my "atypical" DR calibers in favor of the old standards
 
Posts: 628 | Location: Texas | Registered: 30 December 2012Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
The .450-400 3" will be here forever. The 3 1/4" version is older but not as common, and brass may be hard to come by. However, the ballistics are about the same.

[The .450-400 will drop anything on earth. Larger calibers are fun but not really needed.]
Cal


Agreed! The 450-400 3" is one of the most one needs to hunt anything from wild boar to elephant with one rifle for North America, Europe, and Africa.
Can be made light enough to carry for miles of walking, but powerful enough to take on just about anything one might come in contact with that walk!

One of my favorite double rifle chamberings!
......……............……. old


....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

 
Posts: 14521 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: 08 June 2000Reply With Quote
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my 2 cents..

external ballistics, it would make sense to a bolt gun guy .. in fact, it made PERFECT sense to me, 20ish years ago .. when i knew next to nothing about doubles, other than it was the fastest way to have an aimed second shot(wow, it has been on to 20 years.. )

I didn't understand the express rifle's purpose, even though i knew bolt guns very well.

In a nutshell, saving $3 (it was only 50cents then) per shot, to have a more common bullet, meant NOTHING in the grand scheme of things, as related to double rifle hunting ..

300 fps over the 450/400 meant nothing .. 2150 is more than fine ....

a 450/416 - loaded to 450/400 but with a 416 bullet, might have had a chance, might ... but i doubt it ..

I've handled far more single shot 500/416s than doubles -- ratio about 7 to 2, and shot several..

then again, when I was younger and dumber, I thought it was a good idea.. more velocity and cheaper bullets have to be better, right?

nah, that's like wearing Hoka OneOne running shoes with a tweed suit ...


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
Order AR/AccRel Brass
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 35195 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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As an owner of a 450/400 3 inch NE, I'd like to express that I have always been happy with the round and rifle. Small enough to shoot hogs and big enough to handle what pops up out of the bush.
The recoil is moderate. Especially if you use RL-15/Norma 203B and filler.
I don't own a 470 and refuse to ever shoot Mike Jines' 500 because the recoil beats me up.
I've become a recoil wuss in my old age!
If you have the chance buy a double chambered in 450/400 3 inch. You will never regret it!


Rusty
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Posts: 9718 | Location: Missouri City, Texas | Registered: 21 June 2000Reply With Quote
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I own a 450-400, beautiful gun, shot a black bear, killed it good,I also own a 500-416,shot a Cape buffalo, killed it good,for now I always reach for my unpopular 500-416,even hunting hogs, but I mean but when I get old & seniorlike oldI shall cherish my 450-400 dancing


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Posts: 2038 | Location: MI | Registered: 20 March 2007Reply With Quote
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late starter, by now you have probably gathered that double rifles and calibers have seen zero improvement in over 100 years! NO DEVELOPMENT. PERFECT AS INVENTED!
I don't know how likely you think this is, but I find it highly unlikely. The bottom line is that many (most) people buy one because it is "traditional", and therefore they will never acknowledge that any thing is better than a "British" double.
I have owned a Kreighoff 500/416. IMHO it is a fine rifle and a fine caliber. It may not be "stopper" in some circles, but then neither is a 450/400! It is however a very versatile caliber. As has been pointed out, it was designed to duplicate the 416 Rigby, but in a rimmed round. My Kreighoff had a scope in QD mounts, and I demonstrated to my own satisfaction the reproduceability of that process. I knew where the rifle shot out to 200 yards, with the scope.
It is just a different rifle than a 500 x3 1/4 NE, or a 450 NE, both of which I have also owned.
Peter.


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Posts: 10300 | Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Registered: 09 January 2004Reply With Quote
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Thanks all. My analysis so far. 500/416 will not be popular, and may vanish in time. 450/400 is lot more popular and has stood test of time and getting a resurgence in the 3"format. Hunting in zambia and not hunting elephants, and mostly the double would be used on buffalo, i feel the 450/400 is a great choice. We are not allowed reloading, and thus factory ammo availability also plays a role in the choice making.
 
Posts: 18 | Location: Zambia | Registered: 23 February 2015Reply With Quote
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Ive owned half a dozen 450-400s in 3 and 3.25", loved everyone of them especially my old stanby "Sweet Thang"...Ive shot a simi truck load of Buffalo with her, but alas she was sent down the road when retirement was evident..I use 4831 with 400 gr. bullets for 2200 FPS in all of them..I remember when folks said 4831 caused double combustion but that was just a he said she said, same with monolithic bullets I ran a lot of them thru those bores..

Id hunt a T rex with the 450-400, and kill it.

I preferred the 3" version hands down for no particular reason other than the ease of brass.

I never did get around to deciding which I liked best a double 450-400 or my 404 Jeffery mauser bolt guns..still havn't..

I did build a 450/416 with the help of Rick stickley, back when bullets were hard to come by and it was a real dandy on a Browning shotgun action. The 416 bullets showed awesome penetration just neck down the 450-400 to a .416 bullet and call it good..If anyone wants a set of dies I have a like new set Id sell to a high bidder most likely, I'll never use them again. but did consider a Ruger 1-S in that caliber at one time, it would be a awesome Wildcat.


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
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Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 37188 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
Ive owned half a dozen 450-400s in 3 and 3.25", loved everyone of them especially my old stanby "Sweet Thang"...Ive shot a simi truck load of Buffalo with her, but alas she was sent down the road when retirement was evident..I use 4831 with 400 gr. bullets for 2200 FPS in all of them..I remember when folks said 4831 caused double combustion but that was just a he said she said, same with monolithic bullets I ran a lot of them thru those bores..

Id hunt a T rex with the 450-400, and kill it.

I preferred the 3" version hands down for no particular reason other than the ease of brass.

I never did get around to deciding which I liked best a double 450-400 or my 404 Jeffery mauser bolt guns..still havn't..

I did build a 450/416 with the help of Rick stickley, back when bullets were hard to come by and it was a real dandy on a Browning shotgun action. The 416 bullets showed awesome penetration just neck down the 450-400 to a .416 bullet and call it good..If anyone wants a set of dies I have a like new set Id sell to a high bidder most likely, I'll never use them again. but did consider a Ruger 1-S in that caliber at one time, it would be a awesome Wildcat.


That velocity is pretty much the 500-416. I’m thinking about this caliber.
 
Posts: 326 | Location: British Columbia | Registered: 13 April 2012Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Double BC:
quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
I use 4831 with 400 gr. bullets for 2200 FPS in all of them


That velocity is pretty much the 500-416. I’m thinking about this caliber.


hmm, nominal vels for the 400/450 is 2050, and the 500/416 is either 2350 or 2400 --

Ray's load is rifle specific -

btw, 450/400 ammo is HALF the price of 500/416, and when we are talking anything like 10 bucks per round, that's a significant issue, if one wants the rifle regulated - and reloading, well, i think .416 bullets actually are cheaper than 404

I have an opinion that when one loads +P AND that martially changes the external ballistics, that load is nominally a different caliber ... and many carts are lists as +P, or +P+, as increased pressure


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
Order AR/AccRel Brass
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 35195 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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Yes of course but I was referring to Ray’s experiences and success it was at a nominal M/V of 2200fps. Most 450-400 only make 2050 or less. Not that it’s a bad thing.
 
Posts: 326 | Location: British Columbia | Registered: 13 April 2012Reply With Quote
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One thing I’ve noticed during research is that some people say the 500/416 recoils like the 470. It seems like people who own it and shoot it allot say it’s nowhere near and a step up from the 450-400 but still quite manageable
 
Posts: 326 | Location: British Columbia | Registered: 13 April 2012Reply With Quote
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I dug up an old thread on the Big Bore forum that speaks to recoil.
 
Posts: 326 | Location: British Columbia | Registered: 13 April 2012Reply With Quote
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I am very pleased with a .450nitro by G. Gibbs. M0st biggame are often shot within 80 paces anyway. A faster caliber with a lighter bullet won’t benefit from a hunting perspective.
Actually I would rather have a .577bpe than a .500/416


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Posts: 2661 | Location: Denmark | Registered: 09 June 2005Reply With Quote
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I was seriously considering this round or the 416 No2 as a good alternative to a 450 or 470. My thought was that it would provide some better range with a little less recoil.

The problem is when it's stacked against those rounds, recoil is apparently similar. Additionally even though the 416 starts at 2300 the downrange numbers seem to equalize pretty quick. Look at the energy and drops at 100 and 200 yards, they are really close. You could just as easily make a 200 yard shot on non-dangerous game with any of them.

The sweet spot always seems to come right back around to the 450 3 1/4 NE

 
Posts: 326 | Location: British Columbia | Registered: 13 April 2012Reply With Quote
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I have a 470,500-416,458 Lott,450-400,375 H&H & 30-06,all DR's,I never really studied the numbers much,they all called to me Big Grin


DRSS
 
Posts: 2038 | Location: MI | Registered: 20 March 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Double BC:
I was seriously considering this round or the 416 No2 as a good alternative to a 450 or 470. My thought was that it would provide some better range with a little less recoil.

The problem is when it's stacked against those rounds, recoil is apparently similar. Additionally even though the 416 starts at 2300 the downrange numbers seem to equalize pretty quick. Look at the energy and drops at 100 and 200 yards, they are really close. You could just as easily make a 200 yard shot on non-dangerous game with any of them.

The sweet spot always seems to come right back around to the 450 3 1/4 NE



Well no the 470NE misbehaved itself at 200 yards, suddenly had a bit of energy left but no velocity Big Grin
 
Posts: 2936 | Location: Nelson, New Zealand | Registered: 03 August 2009Reply With Quote
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Back in the '70's, when my company, Creighton & Warren, was the importer for Krieghoff hunting rifles, I tried to sell Dieter on the idea of a .375 H&H Flanged necked up to .458, a sort of rimmed .450 Watts. I even had a double rifle chambered for it. I called it the .450 C&W Magnum.

To me it made a lot more sense, since bullets were more reeadily available and duplicating .458 WM performance with lower pressure seemed appropriate for a double rifle. Dieter was not interested and went instead with the 500/416, with predictable results.
 
Posts: 1667 | Registered: 27 March 2007Reply With Quote
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A kreighoff safari classic in this caliber sold for $7000 last week.
 
Posts: 1047 | Location: The Bluegrass State | Registered: 21 October 2014Reply With Quote
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Love our 450 3 1/4 and .458 bullets are easy to come by.

Jim

PS, when Cal says a 450/400 will kill anything he forget to mention ........depending on who's shooting it. dancing


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