I previously posted how great the accuracy was of the .577 VC I bought from Aaron Neilson and I believe was CCMDoc 's with a buffalo engraving on it. Groups about 3" 4" at 100yd. Great double and like shooting it but when I shot my 47" buffalo last August it was after sunset and I had trouble seeing the iron sights. Also, when practicing for deer season last year in snow and low Light with the 45-70 SIACE double, I could not shoot accurately at 100 yds.

Therefore I ordered two Aimpoints from JJ who mounted them. The 45-70 has also a 6x magnifier.

Today I hammered myself figuratively and literally with 26 of .577 rounds and 20 of 45-70 . In summary I used CEB non con and solids, TSX and 3 different loads that Lonnie from Superior Ammo did for me. So the problem is with the Aimpoints the grouping was great at about 2" grouping for each barrel at 50yds. ( I used Macs advice as previously and shot two separate targets for each barrel). But, th right was 4" high and 2" right; the left about the same left 2" left and 4" low. In other words diagonally opposite. Aiming right 2"left and 4" low and opposite for left I was hitting the 2" bull. At 100 yds about the same ie 8" high and 4" right and with correction for aiming got some bulls. I had Lonnie for a load with a couple of grains more, about 2050 fps, this helped but not much and too unpleasant to shoot after 6 rounds. I m planning to use it for buffalo.

For the SIACE and a bigger load (405gr at 2000fps P+) the right I setup for bull at 100yds with 1-2" groups but left is not as tight, more like 6" spread and right 4" and 6" low, in other words crossing. Could back off to the old load but I d like o use it for PG.

So what is your advice? Certainly easier for me to aim, especially in low light but I have to compensate with the .577. I m ok with that but would you regulate? I don't think I have time for that to be done and it's so good with iron sights.

For the SIACe I think I ll stick with it but for you who have more experience with doubles how often is one barrel more accurate than the other?

Appreciate your thought.

If Aimpoints were meant to be used on fine double rifles, God would have invented them in the 1870s.
Cal

PS. Seriously, I hope MAC and others mroe knowledgeable than I chime in here. The weight of the sight would not change point of impact. My guess it is your shooting--i.e. using a sight you are not used to, maybe. As mentioned, I look forward to the replies of others.

I assume nothing has changed in your ammo.

The weight of the red dot sitting on your rifle is changing the regulation. You have 3 coices
Hold off (kentucky windage)
Re-regulate the rifle
Change the hand load to get back to regulation

Heck changing a recoiuls pad on a Double can change regulation..
Agree somewhat with Cal about Aim Points on Doubles, but we gotta do what we gotts do to enjoy our passions..
Before you start changing big stuff try changing out your front sight to a green fiber optic it's like having an Aim Point you will be able to keep the natural cheek weld of a proper fitting double
Good Luck

I use red dot sights (Dokter) on all my DR's, never have had any regulation issues at all on six rifles,I would never have anyone load ammo for me for a Dr, it's folly,I have sent you a pm.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
If Aimpoints were meant to be used on fine double rifles, God would have invented them in the 1870s.
Cal

This brings up a good challenge. Only use the technology that was available at the time of cartridge introduction. Steam ship to Africa, no electricity, no deet, period clothing, monocle and train, walk or horse driven carriage etcetera. Do as the great hunters did before. Would be lots more sporting and fun!

Appreciate the suggestions and comments. Zephyrs comment is an interesting one because I ve seen that with my Gibbs 505 and that shooting of sand bags vs sticks resulted in 6" high and right. One thing I had done was I had added one of those nice Boyt leather boots to increase my LOP so I took it off and tried that today with 6 rounds. Unfortunately it made no difference!still excellent grouping. I really don't want to re regulate it and the Aimpoint is a quick release so depending on the circumstances I can pop it off. I doubt the weight alone is the problem. My cheek meld changed with the higher Aimpoint so I added a pad to the cheek meld. Without it my cheek was getting kicked. I think the combination affected the impact points.
So it will be Kentucky windage hold. with that I hit the 2" bull. I ll practice again in July before I head to SA.

Cal, I set the 45-70 the way recommended with the right barrel perfectly on target and the Kentucky hold the left but how often is one barrel not accurate as the other?

LR3

I'm not sure if you've tried this or aware that with the aimpoint one must use BOTH EYES open.
Its what they stipulate. I have a friend that has done some testing and he is adamant that it makes a difference.
I always shoot both eyes open so I've never had a problem albeit I don't have one mounted on a double. It may help it or your maybe doing it already.
BARNES 750gr TSX is the only bullet I'll use given the choice. Absolutely Devastating on buffalo!
Good hunting!
Leon

Adding weight on a double's barrels will alter mass, hereby affecting barrel harmonics and most often (= nearly always) modify regulation. When I had my double rifle scoped, it required to be re-regulated. Now, both barrels group together but with scope removed, they will shoot apart.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
If Aimpoints were meant to be used on fine double rifles, God would have invented them in the 1870s.
Cal

PS. Seriously, I hope MAC and others mroe knowledgeable than I chime in here. The weight of the sight would not change point of impact. My guess it is your shooting--i.e. using a sight you are not used to, maybe. As mentioned, I look forward to the replies of others.

I assume nothing has changed in your ammo.

Sorry Cal but the weight of a scope combined with the weight of the base and height above the bore can and often does change the regulation, and groups size on a double rifle and more with a heavy recoiling rifle than a light recoiling rifle. The Little Docter optic sight or the Trigicon version of the same sight are the best choices for use on a double rifle with far less problem!

The Higher the sight is above the barrels the more the recoil up, and to the side away from the unfired barrel is retarded by the weight extension above the barrels destroys regulation more the higher the weight is above the barrels.

LR3 posted me about this effect, and I pointed him to Todd Williams who had this problem after a scope was mounted on his Chapuis double. It took Todd a couple weeks and many loading experiences to finally solve this problem.

After some thought, I think the best solution to LR3s problem is the have a Docter Optic sight mounted, and use the Aimpoint on something with one barrel!
.....................................................................

A month somebody told me that a double rifle regulation had nothing to do with the optics and questioned if id ever regulated a double. Now they are saying a scope will change regulation. I am quite confused by it all.

MAC:
I know sope adn mounts will change a doule's target, but will an Aimpoint? Are not they quite small and weigh a few ounces? Or, am I thinkin of another small sight?
Cal

My Heym seems not to have grouping issues with scope on / scope off--other than I cannot see as well without the scope.
It was regulated at 100yds with the scope in the claw mounts.

Guess I have also been lucky with adding scopes-
have had scopes with claw bases added to two different doubles not by the factory ,but by a skilled double rifle smith- neither needed re-regulation.

As to Red dots on doubles-
my groups are smaller with Docter's and Trijicon's
then again I can't see the sights anymore-

But whether factory mounted or aftermarket mounted - truly have not seen regulation issues at all by adding a Red Dot (or by removing one)

Would still like to encourage you to try a Green not Red Fiber Optic Front Sight. Speak with Ken he may have one that is the right height that you can slip in.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
MAC:
I know sope adn mounts will change a doule's target, but will an Aimpoint? Are not they quite small and weigh a few ounces? Or, am I thinkin of another small sight?
Cal

Cal all the Aimpoints are much larger, and higher above the rib than the Docter Optic or the Trijicon sight of the same type. Of course LR3s problem could be his shooting. All these little optics are designed to be used with both eyes open. I suspect, however, that the weight, and height above the rib is the problem.

............I would like to know what the problem happens to be once found!
.....................................................................

Thanks, MAC.
When I posted I was thinking of the little ugly Trijicon sight and could not imagine how a little sight would change regulation. That said, I don't keep up with any new inventions or anything in the world of double rifles if it came after the early 1900s.
Cheers, my friend.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Thanks, MAC.
When I posted I was thinking of the little ugly Trijicon sight and could not imagine how a little sight would change regulation. That said, I don't keep up with any new inventions or anything in the world of double rifles if it came after the early 1900s.
Cheers, my friend.
Cal

.................................................................

Oh MAC:
Sorry to miss you this year at the shoot. Next year is May 5th. Is this enough lead time? Fishing and black bear hunting can be arranged. Stay at my place to avoid hotel charges. One couple has the lower bedroom but the futon in the loft is saiting for you!
Cal

I don´t know which modell of AIMPOINT you have, LR3 but this is the smallest and lightest one: http://www.aimpoint.com/product/aimpoint-micro-t-2/

LR3, PM sent. Wouldn't think that particular sight would affect the POI that much but then doubles are strange. Slightest thing on one causes all kinds of issues while others digest just about anything and everything.

You are most likely going to have to do some extensive experimenting with loads to get it the way you want it. Per my PM, it took 14 load combinations to get my 9.3 to shoot to regulation with AND without the scope. It came down to a load I tried early on, but with the addition of a poly filler. Without that pinch of filler, it's all over the place. With it, it shoots lights out, with or without the scope. Go figure!

Great thanks Todd for the PM. I m waiting to see what JJ thinks about a Doktor and meanwhile I m trying different loads and powders.

Lot of posts on the struggles with the frustrating mysteries of Double Guns, as Todd points out it can be a lot of work to get what you want and maybe never. I know of a Gent that gave up and just shot his scoped Double with one barrel..
I am going to be a bit of a pest and I apologize, but have you spoken with VC as to whether you can replace your front sight blade with a fiber optic front blade on your DR? Depending on your front sight it may be as simple as a set screw and sliding out the old and sliding in the new....
I am big fan of green or yellow it stands out like a "red dot" sight but will not effect your regulation. I have 60 year old eyes and I have put fiber optic front sights on all of my big bore guns and all of my pistols.
Good Luck
Good Shooting

What affects barrel regulation in a double rifle?

My FN-Browning CCS25 rifle in 9,3x74R left the factory without scope bases and was regulated with iron sights to FN's standards, i.e. 2x2 shots within 5 cm (2") at 80 meters (88 yds). Each bbl. kept its shots touching but I've always been bothered by the "gap" between respective groups. I'll admit it never made a difference in the number of animals killed or missed in drive hunts but then, it's all in the head I know, I'll only be satisfied when both of my bbls. shoot in 1 hole... Later, I had the rifle scoped (bases were hand fitted and silver soldered on the top bbl.).

I can assure you that the newly scoped rifle did need regulating over (I attended the works and after 3-4 sessions of unsoldering - moving wedge in/out - resoldering, I was finally satisfied to see both bbls. making a single hole. Under field conditions (well nearly, I held a stalking stick in my left hand to stabilize), it shoots 2x2 handloads like this at 50 meters :


NB : holding rifle and stick together made the rifle shoot slightly left (most probably because it impedes free swinging under recoil).

I expect some reactions about my possible exaggeration of trivial details, but then, anecdotally, the literature that came with the rifle goes much, much further when describing all conditions which may/will affect bbls. grouping together. Be my guest :

1. bbl. convergence is dictated by many factors. Muzzle jump (different according to ammo used), rifle mass/weight, its center of gravity and balance point (an individual rifle's characteristic). I'll give you one more : each bbl. will/may react with a different torque than its brother. All this explain why only experience and patience will make a competent double rifle regulator and the latter will never be matched by any robot or laser, present or to come ;

2. the rifle is regulated with one kind of ammunition, even a change in production lot may bring changes (it is advised to buy a provision of ammo from the same lot) ;

3. the U bbl. should be fired before the O. Otherwise, the mean POI will be lower than expected ;

4. regulation is attained with both chambers loaded, charging only one barrel may affect results.

All in all, these rifles are no target guns but are meant to be shot under field conditions. Depart from these in any way and you may expose yourself to unpleasant surprises

Good work Andre. Come over to blaserbuds and ill show you how i regulated my 9.3x74R double to shoot the same hole with both barrels at 100m. Great scope too. I have the same.

quote:

Originally posted by Andre Mertens:
What affects barrel regulation in a double rifle?

My FN-Browning CCS25 rifle in 9,3x74R left the factory without scope bases and was regulated with iron sights to FN's standards, i.e. 2x2 shots within 5 cm (2") at 80 meters (88 yds). Each bbl. kept its shots touching but I've always been bothered by the "gap" between respective groups. I'll admit it never made a difference in the number of animals killed or missed in drive hunts but then, it's all in the head I know, I'll only be satisfied when both of my bbls. shoot in 1 hole... Later, I had the rifle scoped (bases were hand fitted and silver soldered on the top bbl.).

I can assure you that the newly scoped rifle did need regulating over (I attended the works and after 3-4 sessions of unsoldering - moving wedge in/out - resoldering, I was finally satisfied to see both bbls. making a single hole. Under field conditions (well nearly, I held a stalking stick in my left hand to stabilize), it shoots 2x2 handloads like this at 50 meters :


NB : holding rifle and stick together made the rifle shoot slightly left (most probably because it impedes free swinging under recoil).

I expect some reactions about my possible exaggeration of trivial details, but then, anecdotally, the literature that came with the rifle goes much, much further when describing all conditions which may/will affect bbls. grouping together. Be my guest :

1. bbl. convergence is dictated by many factors. Muzzle jump (different according to ammo used), rifle mass/weight, its center of gravity and balance point (an individual rifle's characteristic). I'll give you one more : each bbl. will/may react with a different torque than its brother. All this explain why only experience and patience will make a competent double rifle regulator and the latter will never be matched by any robot or laser, present or to come ;

2. the rifle is regulated with one kind of ammunition, even a change in production lot may bring changes (it is advised to buy a provision of ammo from the same lot) ;

3. the U bbl. should be fired before the O. Otherwise, the mean POI will be lower than expected ;

4. regulation is attained with both chambers loaded, charging only one barrel may affect results.

All in all, these rifles are no target guns but are meant to be shot under field conditions. Depart from these in any way and you may expose yourself to unpleasant surprises

But that's not a real double rifle...haha, kidding, well kind of.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:

quote:

Originally posted by Andre Mertens:
What affects barrel regulation in a double rifle?


I can assure you that the newly scoped rifle did need regulating over (I attended the works and after 3-4 sessions of unsoldering - moving wedge in/out - resoldering, I was finally satisfied to see both bbls. making a single hole. Under field conditions (well nearly, I held a stalking stick in my left hand to stabilize), it shoots 2x2 handloads like this at 50 meters :


NB : holding rifle and stick together made the rifle shoot slightly left (most probably because it impedes free swinging under recoil).

I expect some reactions about my possible exaggeration of trivial details, but then, anecdotally, the literature that came with the rifle goes much, much further when describing all conditions which may/will affect bbls. grouping together. Be my guest :

1. bbl. convergence is dictated by many factors. Muzzle jump (different according to ammo used), rifle mass/weight, its center of gravity and balance point (an individual rifle's characteristic). I'll give you one more : each bbl. will/may react with a different torque than its brother. All this explain why only experience and patience will make a competent double rifle regulator and the latter will never be matched by any robot or laser, present or to come ;

2. the rifle is regulated with one kind of ammunition, even a change in production lot may bring changes (it is advised to buy a provision of ammo from the same lot) ;

3. the U bbl. should be fired before the O. Otherwise, the mean POI will be lower than expected ;

4. regulation is attained with both chambers loaded, charging only one barrel may affect results.

All in all, these rifles are no target guns but are meant to be shot under field conditions. Depart from these in any way and you may expose yourself to unpleasant surprises

But that's not a real double rifle...haha, kidding, well kind of.

The above answer, by Mckay was made in jest, but is not all wrong as far as the effect on regulation on both types of doubles, Over Under, and side by side.

That is because each type gets it regulation in a different manner during a thing called BARREL TIME!! (the time the bullet spends in the barrel during the recoil flip).

The O/U recoils back and up, while the side by side recoils back, up and away from the other barrel.

The O/U can handle a heavier scope, and can be mounted higher with less effect on regulation than it can on a side by side!

The reason is that on a side by sides right barrel is fired the muzzles rise back, up and to the right away from the left barrel and vice versa. This is retarded by the scopes weight and how high it is above the barrels changing the flip to be pointing at a different place than it is with the same shot without the scope and mounts.

Todd Williams found a load that would negate this change by trial and error so it would regulate with both scope and without, but that is not always possible, especially on a side by side. I have found it to be much easier with an O/U double.

Having a double of either type that was regulated with no scope and mounts, that will regulate properly after mounting a scope is rare!

.....................................................................

P.S................

LR3, I forgot to ask if you are shooting off a LEAD SLED?

If so, try shooting your rifle over a rest sand bag with your hand between the fore end and the sand bag. A double rifle should never touch anything but your fore hand, your cheek, and your shoulder to get proper regulation. The rifle must be allowed to recoil freely as it would be if shooting off hand.
...........................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Having a double of either type that was regulated with no scope and mounts, that will regulate properly after mounting a scope is rare!
.....
A double rifle should never touch anything but your fore hand, your cheek, and your shoulder to get proper regulation. The rifle must be allowed to recoil freely as it would be if shooting off hand.
......................................................

I'll second Mac37 on both counts, which are too often forgotten by double rifle owners.

When I bench rest a double, I hold the forend and rest my hand on the shooting rest. I shoulder the rifle, rest my elbow on the table and my trigger-hand on a sand bag. The shooter's hands should always be interposed between rifle and rest.

The reason for the need to properly rest a double rifle to find a proper regulating load is, the double rifle is designed to be used off hand, and the finer double rifle makers regulate that way. The rifle must be allowed to move under recoil and regulate while being shot off hand at game. Even with sticks in Africa, the best results will be with the shooters hand on the fore stock be between the sticks and the rifle, not rested directly in the “V” of the sticks. Shooting off sticks I rest my forearm behind my hand in the “V” with my hand wrapped around the fore end stock with fingers wrapped around the barrels above the fore wood.

As Andre says the rifle is best used when in contact with only the shooters body. Even when resting against a tree trunk, I place the side of my fore hand against the tree, and hold the rifle in my hands with the rifle to my shoulder.

SO, when working up a load for regulation, the rifle must be rested touching nothing but the shooters body as if being fire off hand for best results.

……………………………………………….....................................................

Using an aimpoint or scope on a double rifle as opposed to a shallow V is akin to child molestation, sodomy and such vile deeds, a pox on those who violate decency and such!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Using an aimpoint or scope on a double rifle as opposed to a shallow V is akin to child molestation, sodomy and such vile deeds, a pox on those who violate decency and such!

Ray,
Optics have been placed on DR's since optics for rifles have existed.
Not as prolifically as Single Barrelled guns but utilized nonetheless -

Davidson,Chapman-James, Malcom, (even Warner Swasey ) etc
and other early optics found they was on to DR's
even before the Claw or Springer or Rigby mount systems were utilized-

It just takes an acquired taste -
which some obviously lack

Lost your since of humor, I say the same thing about ss and plastic stocks! That's what the smily face indicates..

Damn these doubles can be fickle!

Thanks to for the input from Cal, Mac, Todd, Ken at VC, and Bill73!!!

Mac I agree about how you hold. I never use a lead sled and a friend broke his .375 stock using one excessively. I have found that how you hold your rifle on the sticks, what type of sticks, and off sand bags makes a difference as you say. Eg if I shoot my Gibbs .505 off bags after sighting with sticks it shoots 6" high and right 4" at 100 yds. I note that H&H sighting is done with a standing rest and the rifle resting on the shooters hands. I very hiappy with my sticks. They are Jim s Africa Creations with the leather sand bag for doubles. I found with this I m slightly more accurate than resting in my palm because I also rest my left forearm on the left leg coming back towards me. Ken pointed out that doubles should be shot with the second barrel immediately after the first otherwise the second heats up and effects regulation. Hence this answers partly my question about why the second barrel may vary in accuracy.

Ok back to testing today. I shot 30 rounds of .577 off sticks. I took off the Aimpoint and switched to a Dokter that JJ sent me.

First I started with a 70% reduced load 750grWoodleighs at 25 yds . 1" groups overlapping! But obviously a problem because when I increased to full loads at 50 yds with TSX the bullets crossed. Then I tried slower and faster loads at 50 yds and 100 yds with TSX. I did as Cal recommends and sighted in right barrel first and then as Mac recommends with two separate targets with one for each barrel. Well with right barrel and TSX the grouping was 1-2" at 100yds. Really quite remarkable for a heavy double. Not as easy with the Dokter as with the Aimpoint. Still at 100 yds the TSX was crossing and shooting about 6" low, 6" right with the left Barrel. Aaron Nielson had included CEB non con and solids with the sale so I then tried them. I had previusly found they regulated nicely with iron sights. Bingo! The right shot 1" right with the non con and the left right 1" and 1" high!

Well looks good after all the effort and advice. Thanks to all. In retrospect I should have gone with the Dokter from the beginning even though the 2moa dot on the Aimpoint is a little more accurate than the 3.5 MOA Dokter but then for a cherging buffalo the Dokter is better.

I ll probable go with a TSX for right first and solid left although with my buff in Namibia my PH asked me to start with two TSX for maximal injury and then solids on reload.


After some 80-100 rounds through the .577 I ve grown to like it more and gotten used to the recoil. Now for buff in SA.

Ps. To clarify, the 100 yds grouping that worked out was CEB non con in right barrel and CEB solid in left.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Using an aimpoint or scope on a double rifle as opposed to a shallow V is akin to child molestation, sodomy and such vile deeds, a pox on those who violate decency and such!

To be fair, in this age of live-and-let-live, I don't suppose poor old Pondoro used an Aimpoint

Went out to break in the barrel of my new .338 based on a Gibbs .505 case (3270 fps 300gr) but took the .577 NE VC along for a final check before Africa buffalo. With some change in velocity the grouping again was great of sticks: 100yd 2" with 750 gr TSX followed by CEB solid. Second TSX did not group as well out of left barrel. About 4". 70 yd combo of TSX followed by solid same accuracy and about 2" high. 25 and 50 yd on bull and 10 yd snap shooting free hand 1.5" low.

This time ready for buff even if low light