I guess another problem with Elmer's outlook could be that while separate loads might get the barrels together at a certain range, if their velocities were different, they would have different trajectories at longer distances.

Such a situation might be managed in an O/U (where you might say, ah, 200 yards - the top barrel zeroes there); not so good in a S/S, I fear.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
We always loaded and shot in one barrel until we obtain a good grouping load before playing with regulation.

Here's the BEST load that shot good with each barrel. (top target) Tell me again your method!

Bottom target shows results after JJ did his magic.

.



.

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
We always loaded and shot in one barrel until we obtain a good grouping load before playing with regulation.

Here's the BEST load that shot good with each barrel. (top target) Tell me again your method!

Bottom target shows results after JJ did his magic.

.



.

The above load is a perfect load to have the rifle regulated for because of the tight groups from each barrel. When the barrels are re-regulated for this load, those groups must trade sides of the aiming point with the right side of the left barrel group crossing into the left side of the right barrel group and vice versa. this means the centers of each barrels form equal distances on it's own side of the aiming point. Then you have a properly loaded regulating load for the rifle.

The centers of each barrel group should always be on it's own side of the composite group of both barrels.

………………………………………………………..



on it's be

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by eagle27:
Elmer Keith himself when writing about loading for the British doubles spoke that it maybe necessary to use different charges of powder with the same bullet in individual barrels of a double, but then what did he know about reloading

[QUOTE]Originally posted by eagle27:

The statement made by Keith was made, I assume, about working with a very worn right barrel in a vintage double, to avoid re-barreling the old double rifle.
Having said that, I agree that such a rifle would not be my choice for taking on a dangerous animal, where more than two shots would be likely. With a re-load of the rifle for shots three, and four might get the wrong load in each barrel.

It would be far better to use another rifle or re-barrel the double rifle!

……………………………………………………………..



.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by buckstix:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by eagle27:
Elmer Keith himself when writing about loading for the British doubles spoke that it maybe necessary to use different charges of powder with the same bullet in individual barrels of a double, but then what did he know about reloading

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

The statement made by Keith was made, I assume, about working with a very worn right barrel in a vintage double, to avoid re-barreling the old double rifle.
Having said that, I agree that such a rifle would not be my choice for taking on a dangerous animal, where more than two shots would be likely. With a re-load of the rifle for shots three, and four might get the wrong load in each barrel.

It would be far better to use another rifle or re-barrel the double rifle!

……………………………………………………………..



.

I would never hunt with, or for that matter own, a double rifle that required a different load for each barrel in order to place two shots next to each other within acceptable hunting "accuracy" at acceptable hunting distances. Too many variables involved to keep the ammo / barrel straightened out.

As Buckstix's target shows, individual barrel accuracy in a double rifle meant for hunting dangerous game at typically close distances, isn't the end goal. The end goal is to get two shots, one from each barrel, close enough to each other at a specified distance. It's this relationship of bullet placement from each of the two barrels to each other that is the end goal, not how consistent each barrel's accuracy is to itself as in the case with a traditional single barreled rifle.

Apples and Oranges and I suspect Elmer's statement being debated here has some additional context we aren't privy to at the moment. Otherwise, he was full of shit!

Let Elmer sleep in peace after 34 years!

What Elmer wrote was new knowledge or opinion or fact or what ever in those days when not too many others did the same. Elmer was from the end of the era of gun fighting in the Wild West!

Bill Tilghman was a character from an earlier era. Louis L'Amour wrote of Tilghman demonstrating how to use a six gun.

Let us remember the context.

There are plenty of people who in the last 30 years have developed a lot of knowledge, expertise and new "science" of double rifle shooting, loading, bullets etc. All of it was AFTER Elmer's days.

Graham Wright and the Aussie DR crowd from the 70s were the modern pioneers or should I say the saviors who resurrected interest in Double rifle shooting.

I would never even consider Elmer's writings for my goals of loading and shooting a double rifle. I have not even bothered to re-read Ross Seyfried.

My conclusion is that doubles are NOT similar to single barrel rifles. The principles are NOT the same. Yes i know that the principle of shooting EACH barrel may be the same. But that is not the issue.

Like Buckstix & Todd said, the goal is to get both barrels to shoot to same point of aim at say 100 meters or 75 meters max.

The goal is to have a TOTALLY reliable double rifle for dangerous game at 10 to 50 meters if charged.

That reliability includes not just regulation but the loads, bullet design and shooting method.

This is where Michael 458 & Srose did pioneering work on bullets, loads, pressure test etc. Sam actually showed me the hand turned bullets he designed in 2007 when the CEB story started.

I have a minor edit to Todd's comment about using the same load in both barrels. If you are using a soft & solid in each barrel, that is 2 loads. So it makes sense to ensure that each shoots as desired. Many people load a solid with 2 grains less powder for same velocity and regulation. Sam's pressure tests confirm this - solids generate higher pressure and velocity with same powder charge and hence the lower powder charge.

Will regulation change if you swapped softs and solids to left & right barrels? I do not know. My guess is that they might just shoot differently. Do I want to bother about it? No way. I'll just get some good loads done that work right and just enjoy the rifle.

While some of my comments might disagree with eagle27, I consider him a friend who has helped me a lot, just like so many other here on AR.

One day I hope to visit Nelson and shoot with him.

Peace be to Elmer Keith and Wild Bill Hickock.

Ps. I think I have read most, if not all of Louis L'Amour's books - some of them many, many times.

Well said Naki.

Lot of experience in Aus with DR's, and some enterprising, and brave, people ended up making a living out of providing fine components.

However, there is a wealth of knowledge from the States. And many early starters with dies and components there too.

Enjoy your double. I am enjoying this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
We always loaded and shot in one barrel until we obtain a good grouping load before playing with regulation.

Here's the BEST load that shot good with each barrel. (top target) Tell me again your method!

Bottom target shows results after JJ did his magic.

.



.

The above load is a perfect load to have the rifle regulated for because of the tight groups from each barrel. When the barrels are re-regulated for this load, those groups must trade sides of the aiming point with the right side of the left barrel group crossing into the left side of the right barrel group and vice versa. this means the centers of each barrels form equal distances on it's own side of the aiming point. Then you have a properly loaded regulating load for the rifle.

The centers of each barrel group should always be on it's own side of the composite group of both barrels.

………………………………………………………..



on it's be

I'm quite puzzled now. Yes Buckstix showing a great load that is grouping perfectly in each individual barrel albeit crossing. JJ does a beautiful job of regulating the gun for that very same load. Mac you are endorsing that process.
Would JJ have worked his magic had Buckstix had a load that didn't show any grouping potential in either barrel.
Isn't what buckstix and JJ achieved exactly what I was talking about in the first place.

Naki and I are corresponding by email and I'm hopefully helping him with some cast bullet loading knowledge so he can get some good loads for his double. I certainly have no issue with us having differing opinions on various aspects of loading. What works well for me may not work well for him, we respect each others views.

What I like most about this discussion is its reflection of the respectful nature of AR.

Another forum seems to comprise 90 per cent trolling, upon which a poster with a divergent but considered point of view is labelled a troll.

Mate - yes and no!

The difference is that JJ actually re-regulated the rifle based on the groups from that load. He took the ribs and solder off, set up the barrel in his regulation jig, got the two barrels shooting to same point of aim, resoldered the ribs and barrels together and reblued the barrels (I presume). In that case, the principle is like shooting 2 singles and then getting them shooting together.

In my case we are trying to achieve the regulation with just the loads and not wanting to remove the solder / ribs and re-regulate the barrels to the best single barrel group load.

That is why some of us have not agreed that shooting / zeroing / regulating a double is same as a single barrel rifle. Achieving regulation just by adjusting loads is quite a different principle, as explained by Graham Wright.

Yes I agree with Sambar man that AR can have really civil and respectful & constructive debate.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
We always loaded and shot in one barrel until we obtain a good grouping load before playing with regulation.

Here's the BEST load that shot good with each barrel. (top target) Tell me again your method!

Bottom target shows results after JJ did his magic.

.



.

The above load is a perfect load to have the rifle regulated for because of the tight groups from each barrel. When the barrels are re-regulated for this load, those groups must trade sides of the aiming point with the right side of the left barrel group crossing into the left side of the right barrel group and vice versa. this means the centers of each barrels form equal distances on it's own side of the aiming point. Then you have a properly loaded regulating load for the rifle.

The centers of each barrel group should always be on it's own side of the composite group of both barrels.

………………………………………………………..



on it's be

I'm quite puzzled now. Yes Buckstix showing a great load that is grouping perfectly in each individual barrel albeit crossing. JJ does a beautiful job of regulating the gun for that very same load. Mac you are endorsing that process.
Would JJ have worked his magic had Buckstix had a load that didn't show any grouping potential in either barrel.
Isn't what buckstix and JJ achieved exactly what I was talking about in the first place.

Naki and I are corresponding by email and I'm hopefully helping him with some cast bullet loading knowledge so he can get some good loads for his double. I certainly have no issue with us having differing opinions on various aspects of loading. What works well for me may not work well for him, we respect each others views.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Mate - yes and no!

The difference is that JJ actually re-regulated the rifle based on the groups from that load. He took the ribs and solder off, set up the barrel in his regulation jig, got the two barrels shooting to same point of aim, resoldered the ribs and barrels together and reblued the barrels (I presume). In that case, the principle is like shooting 2 singles and then getting them shooting together.

In my case we are trying to achieve the regulation with just the loads and not wanting to remove the solder / ribs and re-regulate the barrels to the best single barrel group load.

That is why some of us have not agreed that shooting / zeroing / regulating a double is same as a single barrel rifle. Achieving regulation just by adjusting loads is quite a different principle, as explained by Graham Wright.

Yes I agree with Sambar man that AR can have really civil and respectful & constructive debate.

\

Hi there Naki, I did fully understand what JJ did for Buckstix's double and that is certainly not the pathway you want to go down for regulating your 470. If you can get a good accurate load developed that will regulate without having to have gunsmithing work done you will have achieved your dream.

I am certain that the groups Buckstix is showing for each barrel of his double were achieved when shooting right/left, right/left, etc. (unless of course he uses the rear trigger first and shoots left/right, left/right, as some do to prevent strumming the rear trigger and doubling).
I am equally certain, but could be proven absolutely wrong, that he would achieve the same results for each barrel if he shot one barrel at a time i.e left x 7 then right x 7.

Regulation is obviously critical for a double and I have never denied that but in my mind you will not regulate a load that will not group therefore somehow you have to develop loads that will produce good groups from each barrel.
Similarly you can fiddle around with bedding, different mounts, different scopes, re-crowning, lapping the bore and several other tricks to try and make a bolt action shoot accurately and achieve sweet nothing if your particular combination of case, primer, powder and charge do not have potential to be an accurate load. You and I and every other reloader will have come across some combinations that just do not shoot no matter what we do.

As you are finding now it is not easy to just hit on an an accurate load when loading cast and probably pistol bullets
too. A poster on this thread or maybe on one of your others has commented that he never had any luck getting cast to shoot in his doubles, another won't use cast anymore because of the danger of pressure incursions.

Another factor that some here have mentioned and it is often mentioned when considering buying an older double is the right barrel is often more worn than the left because in hunting situations more often than not only the right barrel is used with the shooter reloading immediately after a shot to approach a downed animal or pursue a wounded one. Doesn't this show that even with a double you want at least the first barrel that is fired most to group well. You don't want minute of pie plate groups from any barrel.

I'm probably just thinking too logically and doubles are illogical so I will tip my head to those illogical double owners

Hopefully this weekend you can get some good range time and develop your loads, cheers.

Naki,
This is how I develop loads for my double rifles in calibers,9,3,375 H&H,450-400,500-416,458 Lott,& 470 NE,firstly I will try to match factory ammo that the gun was regulated for,usually start a tad on the slower side,I use a chrono to check the speeds,usually as the speed comes close to factory ammo speeds?the load is shooting accurately @ 50 yrds & the grouping is 1-2",this is it pure & simple,has worked everytime,powder selection is easy as there are many loads posted on this forum & elsewhere,I have shot cast in the past but do not do so anymore,if I need to reduce bullet weight? I just use pistol bullets,checking for best groups from individual barrels has nothing to do with regulation,regulation happens at the speeds that the gun was regulated for period.If one barrel is not grouping as well as the other barrel? then your groups will just open up a bit is all,for up close & personal? it really does not matter anyways.I have so far never had to check individual barrel groups for any of my DR's.

Thanks Bill. Much appreciated. VC were not able to give me any info on factory regulation loads.

I have asked Holts for info from previous owner and they are trying to help. Finger crossed.

Since the Rifle was made in 2006, I suspect that it might have been regulated with Federal ammo. I know Sam had a Demas in 500NE made around that time - may be 2007. I have actually seen that rifle. He may have some info. I''ll ask him.

Cheers

Loaded 18 rounds yesterday. Mangled 2 cases and wrote off $8 each. The first was a result of too little lube. I didn't realise how much more tolerances a DR has. The low pressure loads had expanded a fair bit. Stuck case & pulled rim.

The second case was a result of trying to seat the powder coated cast bullet. I flared the case with a conical steel tool that allowed the bullet base to sit inside the case mouth. But it ended up collapsing the neck.

Went to my friend's farm today and tried the new loads.

Re15 89gr with foam backer rod. I got barely 2000 fps with both Woodleigh softs and Hornady DGS. AR2209 (H4350) 96 gr and foam backer gave around 2050. Unfortunately I got 5 errors out odo 8 for eight barrel.

N160 was poor with 104

Prety good accuracy and groups. Will post pics in the morning.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Mate - yes and no!

The difference is that JJ actually re-regulated the rifle based on the groups from that load. He took the ribs and solder off, set up the barrel in his regulation jig, got the two barrels shooting to same point of aim, resoldered the ribs and barrels together and reblued the barrels (I presume). In that case, the principle is like shooting 2 singles and then getting them shooting together.

In my case we are trying to achieve the regulation with just the loads and not wanting to remove the solder / ribs and re-regulate the barrels to the best single barrel group load.

That is why some of us have not agreed that shooting / zeroing / regulating a double is same as a single barrel rifle. Achieving regulation just by adjusting loads is quite a different principle, as explained by Graham Wright.

Yes I agree with Sambar man that AR can have really civil and respectful & constructive debate.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
We always loaded and shot in one barrel until we obtain a good grouping load before playing with regulation.

Here's the BEST load that shot good with each barrel. (top target) Tell me again your method!

Bottom target shows results after JJ did his magic.

.



.

The above load is a perfect load to have the rifle regulated for because of the tight groups from each barrel. When the barrels are re-regulated for this load, those groups must trade sides of the aiming point with the right side of the left barrel group crossing into the left side of the right barrel group and vice versa. this means the centers of each barrels form equal distances on it's own side of the aiming point. Then you have a properly loaded regulating load for the rifle.

The centers of each barrel group should always be on it's own side of the composite group of both barrels.

………………………………………………………..



on it's be

I'm quite puzzled now. Yes Buckstix showing a great load that is grouping perfectly in each individual barrel albeit crossing. JJ does a beautiful job of regulating the gun for that very same load. Mac you are endorsing that process.
Would JJ have worked his magic had Buckstix had a load that didn't show any grouping potential in either barrel.
Isn't what buckstix and JJ achieved exactly what I was talking about in the first place.

Naki and I are corresponding by email and I'm hopefully helping him with some cast bullet loading knowledge so he can get some good loads for his double. I certainly have no issue with us having differing opinions on various aspects of loading. What works well for me may not work well for him, we respect each others views.

Eagle! If my post was misunderstood, the original target for group of each barrel indicates the rifle crossing, and as I said in the post above those are very good loads, BUT the regulation has to move the center of each barrel group needs to be on it's own side of the aiming point to be properly regulated. If you look at JJ's regulation target that is exactly what he did. He moved the barrels so each barrel prints on it's own side of the aiming point on the target.

That rifle will shoot properly without the centers of each barrel's individual group ever crossing. both group centers being parallel down range with the RIGHT side of the LEFT barrel's group mixing with the LEFT side of the
RIGHT barrel's group.

The thing called BARREL TIME is timed with the muzzle flip so that each barrel's group center shoots on it's own side of the aiming point on the target. Then and only then do you have proper regulation for a double rifle.


Any change in the rifle's weight, or the mounting of a scope that is too high or too heavy is likely to destroy regulation, because line of sight through the bores of each barrel will show conversion and crossing. This is necessary for the double rifle to shoot parallel because each barrel. under recoil, wants to move UP and AWAY from the other barrel while the bullet from that barrel is traveling down the bore, so that that the barrel being fired is pointing at the place where the sights were pointing when the trigger was pulled.

…………………..Hope any of this is at least as clear as Mississippi mud! If not wellllllllll I don't know what to tell you.
………………………………………………………….

When I found "our" first high grade vintage sxs shotgun all the paperwork was in the wife's name, so it is her gun. She got me a set of pots and pans!!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Mate - yes and no!

The difference is that JJ actually re-regulated the rifle based on the groups from that load. He took the ribs and solder off, set up the barrel in his regulation jig, got the two barrels shooting to same point of aim, resoldered the ribs and barrels together and reblued the barrels (I presume). In that case, the principle is like shooting 2 singles and then getting them shooting together.

In my case we are trying to achieve the regulation with just the loads and not wanting to remove the solder / ribs and re-regulate the barrels to the best single barrel group load.

That is why some of us have not agreed that shooting / zeroing / regulating a double is same as a single barrel rifle. Achieving regulation just by adjusting loads is quite a different principle, as explained by Graham Wright.

Yes I agree with Sambar man that AR can have really civil and respectful & constructive debate.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
We always loaded and shot in one barrel until we obtain a good grouping load before playing with regulation.

Here's the BEST load that shot good with each barrel. (top target) Tell me again your method!

Bottom target shows results after JJ did his magic.

.



.

The above load is a perfect load to have the rifle regulated for because of the tight groups from each barrel. When the barrels are re-regulated for this load, those groups must trade sides of the aiming point with the right side of the left barrel group crossing into the left side of the right barrel group and vice versa. this means the centers of each barrels form equal distances on it's own side of the aiming point. Then you have a properly loaded regulating load for the rifle.

The centers of each barrel group should always be on it's own side of the composite group of both barrels.

………………………………………………………..



on it's be

I'm quite puzzled now. Yes Buckstix showing a great load that is grouping perfectly in each individual barrel albeit crossing. JJ does a beautiful job of regulating the gun for that very same load. Mac you are endorsing that process.
Would JJ have worked his magic had Buckstix had a load that didn't show any grouping potential in either barrel.
Isn't what buckstix and JJ achieved exactly what I was talking about in the first place.

Naki and I are corresponding by email and I'm hopefully helping him with some cast bullet loading knowledge so he can get some good loads for his double. I certainly have no issue with us having differing opinions on various aspects of loading. What works well for me may not work well for him, we respect each others views.

Eagle! If my post was misunderstood, the original target for group of each barrel indicates the rifle crossing, and as I said in the post above those are very good loads, BUT the regulation has to move the center of each barrel group needs to be on it's own side of the aiming point to be properly regulated. If you look at JJ's regulation target that is exactly what he did. He moved the barrels so each barrel prints on it's own side of the aiming point on the target.

That rifle will shoot properly without the centers of each barrel's individual group ever crossing. both group centers being parallel down range with the RIGHT side of the LEFT barrel's group mixing with the LEFT side of the
RIGHT barrel's group.

The thing called BARREL TIME is timed with the muzzle flip so that each barrel's group center shoots on it's own side of the aiming point on the target. Then and only then do you have proper regulation for a double rifle.


Any change in the rifle's weight, or the mounting of a scope that is too high or too heavy is likely to destroy regulation, because line of sight through the bores of each barrel will show conversion and crossing. This is necessary for the double rifle to shoot parallel because each barrel. under recoil, wants to move UP and AWAY from the other barrel while the bullet from that barrel is traveling down the bore, so that that the barrel being fired is pointing at the place where the sights were pointing when the trigger was pulled.

…………………..Hope any of this is at least as clear as Mississippi mud! If not wellllllllll I don't know what to tell you.
………………………………………………………….

Thanks for replying Mac, haven't seen Mississippi mud but the targets are perrrrfectly clear and were from the start. I understand perfectly what you are saying in your last two sentences, I just seem to have trouble trying to explain what answers I was looking for.

My question was is that I assume (and I qualified that by saying I maybe completely wrong) that that load Buckstix has developed would group just as nicely if just shot through one barrel at a time e,g. just shooting 7 shots through the left barrel along with suitable cooling time between shots if required. I'm not talking about regulation, that is quite different as you have pointed out and that is perfectly clear to me.

If Buckstix load had not been showing any sort of decent grouping potential from the individual barrels, what then? How did he work up such a good grouping load? If that particular load was not capable of producing good groups from a single barrel and you were shooting right/left, right/left how would you know when looking at a target with bullet holes all over the show if it was a poorly grouping load or a regulation problem?

OR OR OR are you saying regulation or lack of it is always consistent irrespective of a poor/inaccurate load?

Here are the targets from yesterday.

I am not quite getting there with Re 15. I know I can go to 90gr. Not sure if that is max.

Ar2209 (H4350) has a lot more promise as i can go up to 102 gr if required but I may not need to.

I am hoping that 99 to 100 grs will give me 2150 fps and good regulation.

N160 is not for this rifle.

quote:

Thanks for replying Mac, haven't seen Mississippi mud but the targets are perrrrfectly clear and were from the start. I understand perfectly what you are saying in your last two sentences, I just seem to have trouble trying to explain what answers I was looking for.

My question was is that I assume (and I qualified that by saying I maybe completely wrong) that that load Buckstix has developed would group just as nicely if just shot through one barrel at a time e,g. just shooting 7 shots through the left barrel along with suitable cooling time between shots if required. I'm not talking about regulation, that is quite different as you have pointed out and that is perfectly clear to me.

If Buckstix load had not been showing any sort of decent grouping potential from the individual barrels, what then? How did he work up such a good grouping load? If that particular load was not capable of producing good groups from a single barrel and you were shooting right/left, right/left how would you know when looking at a target with bullet holes all over the show if it was a poorly grouping load or a regulation problem?

OR OR OR are you saying regulation or lack of it is always consistent irrespective of a poor/inaccurate load?

Eagle 27, You are certainly correct! JJ certainly would not regulate the rifle for a load that was not grouping properly!
That being said, I can assure you that is exactly what he did in this case. However the fact that the groups were developed one barrel at a time doesn’t necessarily mean the barrels will group that well once the regulation is finished. In this case at least two shots did regulate side by side with each barrel placing one shot from each barrel on it’s own side of the aiming point on the target!
Now, the owner needs to go to the range and fire one shot from each barrel, let the barrels both cool back to room temperature between each two shots till he has fired a four shot group from each barrel on the target to get a composite group of both barrels. Then and only then will he know what that load will do in a run, and gun encounter with a buffalo.
Knowing JJ’s work I have little doubt the rifle will shoot fine ! I never had a doubt on that score!

I was searching the web for sight pictures for double rifles and found none. All the sight pictures are for pistols and some target rifles or peep sights.

Does anyone have any sight pictures for DRs? I would appreciate any help.

I remember some hand drawn pictures by WD Karamoja Bell with elephant brain shots.

Where to aim on critters should be more-or-less the same with double and magazine rifles, so I assume by sight pictures, you mean how the bead should sit in the V of the express sight.

If the rear leaf is all V with no flats each side, you need to pull the bead right down into the bottom. I believe this style of leaf comes from rifles with large, hinge-over moon sights. There, the only way both beads can work is if they are pulled hard into the bottom of the V.

The down side I've found is that in the heat of the moment, there's a tendency not to do that, whereby I've had second shots on deer and buffalo go high.

If your express leaf has the flats, and the rifle has been set up to do this, you can align the top of the bead with the flats, as you would with most other tangent sights - a much more natural arrangement, I believe.

Yes mate. That is what I am asking. Thanks for your reply.

As a teenager I shot tens of thousands of .22 air rifle pellets with open sights. That was a conical post with a small V and also a peep. I used to sometimes shoot a running squirrel on a ficus tree at 15 meters. That was 40+ years ago.

I remember reading about these issues and techniques but do not remember exactly where & whose articles. Karamoja Bell's article is of course well known.

VC generally regulate there doubles to shoot a little high at 50m.
To shoot dead on target , you must bury the bead down into the bottom of the V notch of the rear sight.

cheers
Nick

If you wish to emulate the guru, Pondoro Taylor , you should use a good sized front bead and sight it level with the shoulders of a wide V notch rear sight.
Taylor complained that too many gunmakers/smiths fitted small front beads which got buried in a V notch causing a high shot or caused the hunter to raise the bead too much and then shoot low.

His idea was for the front bead to match the V depth so it all came together correctly in the heat of the moment.

Elmer lived in a world of his own and could really be a little over the top..Riding bucking horseds until he was bleeding out his nose and ears is pure bull shit, it doesn't happen, end of story...Pictures of him riding bucking horses never show his face and were taken at a distance...I took him with a grain of salt, but loved to read his outrages stuff. You know he shot elk with milsurp 30-06 173 gr. full patch ammo and blamed the 30-06 as not being fit for elk..just ignorant stuff like that...I recall him shooting an elk with a 250 at short range until the gun went empty then tossing the worthless 99 Savage in the snow and finishing the job with a SA colt pistol, more manufactured BS but fun to read..Ive killed too many elk with a 250 to buy off on that one..

Nice gun you have and you can make a couple of grand or more if you decide to sell it..Tell your wife its and investment and it truly is..I suspect you could get $6000 to $6500 for it...and extractors beat the heck out of ejectors that make a gun hard to open and send expensive brass sailing out into the grass never to be found..With a tad of practice you can dump a load on the ground and reload fast, fast....

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
".... small front beads which got buried in a V notch causing a high shot or caused the hunter to raise the bead too much and then shoot low......."

Burying the bead deep in the V-notch causes a LOW shot. (not high) ... raising the bead in the V-notch will make you shoot HIGH. (not low)
.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Elmer lived in a world of his own and could really be a little over the top..Riding bucking horseds until he was bleeding out his nose and ears is pure bull shit, it doesn't happen, end of story...Pictures of him riding bucking horses never show his face and were taken at a distance...I took him with a grain of salt, but loved to read his outrages stuff. You know he shot elk with milsurp 30-06 173 gr. full patch ammo and blamed the 30-06 as not being fit for elk..just ignorant stuff like that...I recall him shooting an elk with a 250 at short range until the gun went empty then tossing the worthless 99 Savage in the snow and finishing the job with a SA colt pistol, more manufactured BS but fun to read..Ive killed too many elk with a 250 to buy off on that one...

Another chapter in the story - get on with it!

PS: yes buckstix, that's the way it works.

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
".... small front beads which got buried in a V notch causing a high shot or caused the hunter to raise the bead too much and then shoot low......."

Burying the bead deep in the V-notch causes a LOW shot. (not high) ... raising the bead in the V-notch will make you shoot HIGH. (not low)
.

True, got the highs and lows mixed, thanks for correcting.

I am very lucky that the rifle fits me well. When I shoulder the rifle with my cheek on the stock and look down the barrel, the sights are perfectly aligned and the bead is in the bottom of the V. I am surprised that I can point at a telephone pole 200 meters away and it points to the ceramic insulators so instinctively.

I just need to get it shooting right.

This rifle has 3 red translucent dots on the rear sight. They are great to use at dusk as they glow and make it very easy to pick up the sights and target.



The photo does not show the real life "glow" of the dots. Works in the shade even in day time.

Shot the rifle again yesterday. My friend Grant very kindly built up a standing rest. Also shot at 50 meters.



The shooting was encouraging and an improvement considering move to 50 meters - but a few frustrations too.



The left barrel with solids is definitely shooting very accurately. 5 out of 9 shots from 2 loads were in the bull - composite group of less than 1 inch for those 5 shots. 8 shots in 2.75 inches & 1 pulled 2 inches low and right.

The right barrel is not as accurate and shooting 2 inches high.

Also strange that the Re15 load of 90gr was slower than the 89 gr load last week! Last week's load looked very promising & I thought I thought that 90gr would do the job.

The AR2209 (H4350) load looks quite good but I need to sort out right barrel group. I may go back to 96gr with right barrel like last week.

The BIG frustration is the chrony - quite a few errors and a couple of strange readings - like 2412 fps for one shot and the a couple of other readings were also odd. Some identical L&R readings are too much of a coincidence. May need a new battery? No Low warning.

Not sure where to next.

I may go down 1 gr with the AR2209 load for R barrel Softs or even back to 96 gr like last week.

I may also try softs in L&R & solids in L&R to see how the two barrels shoot with same loads.

Rifle seems to like 2070 fps or there about.

Some cases have been fired 3 times and I may need to anneal them.

Hi Naki, I can't see your Chrony but can see the remote readout so am sure it is the model using the V wires for the shoot through sighting screens. I have the very first model Chrony which uses cardboard sight screens with side shades and quite small oval shaped aperture’s to shoot through. I have always had good consistent results from my Chrony and over the decades I have owned it shot a lot of rifle, shotgun and pistol through it. I used to check the accuracy by shooting 22LR subsonics or target ammo through but in reality the electronics are not going to change. A good brand alkaline battery is a must and even though the Chrony’s have an on/off switch I always unplug my battery between use and then when setting up allow 10-15mins for the Chrony to stabilise like most electronics should be. I use the same system for digital calipers, (removing battery etc.).

I always use the white opaque shadow screens no matter what the day is like but I have always been wary of the later model Chrony’s with no side screens to prevent shadows falling on the sky screens, I note the long shadows in your photo, and the very indistinct sighting apertures of the V wires.
Possible with your double the bullets are not passing over the sky screen slots properly. The slots on the later model Chrony’s are identical to mine and the apertures on my Chrony direct the bullet direct over the top. Also my cardboard sight screens have a lower sighting mark for iron sights and a higher one for scopes so the height above the sky screens is much more consistent.

I have seen suggestions from some that they get far better results by using their Chrony in a cardboard box to prevent unwanted shadows.

Anyway just something to consider before you invest in a Labradar

Labradar - LOL! We actually use doplar microwave sensors in some products we make. I wish we could develop a chronograph. We also use PIR sensors and I once wondered if we could make one. But the programing algorithms are quite complex and need to be done by real specialists.

I was reading Graeme Wright's book and he also suggests using a baffle in front as the big bore tend to throw chronyes out probably due to muzzle blat, shock waves, fillers or what ever.

Also found that regulating velocity is more like what I am getting and that 2150 fps is not common with 24 inch barrel. Original loads in 1900s was off 31 inch barrels and velocity was not verified with modern equipment. Someone like Butch Searcy probably regulated all his rifles at 2150 fps.

I'll start a poll on this and see what we find.

Anyone try Vihtavouri N150 with 500 gr bullets in 470NE?

How does it compare with Re15 & H4530?

Tried RE15 which give around 2080fps with foam wad?

I had similar problems with Chrony with 500 3 1/4” and 500/450 3 1/4” NE Cartridges. Will get something else.

I have had good results with RE15. AR2209 (H4350) not so much.

Good shooting, Chris

I've put a lot of shotgun loads over my Chrony without any bother and a shotty has a bit of muzzle blast. I usually set the Chrony up quite a way from the muzzle, I dunno maybe 4-6 metres.

Guy on our range shooting the big bore long range muzzle breaked guns (up to 50 cal) used to use a standard chronograph, not a Chrony but another brand with the same technology. It seemed to work well for him and he usually had it set up at similar distance to what I use. He has a Labradar now just for ease of setup but has had problems with it picking up false starts from nearby shooters.

Yup. See above target and loads. Re15 - 90 gr with foam Wads gave around 2030fps +/- but right barrel is not sorted. AR2209 was better at around 2080fps with 98 gr. Right barrel is better but not as good as left.

I am trying N150 before increasing charge and recoil with AR2209.

quote:

Originally posted by Rockdoc:
Tried RE15 which give around 2080fps with foam wad?

I had similar problems with Chrony with 500 3 1/4” and 500/450 3 1/4” NE Cartridges. Will get something else.

I have had good results with RE15. AR2209 (H4350) not so much.

Good shooting, Chris

Update. I have been shooting about 18 rounds each weekend if weather permits. Total fired about 70 shots.

Re15 up to 90 gr8 with filler is not giving me velocity.

AR2209 (H4350) is getting there.

Left barrel seems ok - 5 out of 9 shots in bull 1 inch.

Right barrel now giving 2120 fps with 100 gr.

Also tried N150 and it seems to be very close to H4530. Showing promise. I need to increase velocity by 150 fps.

Maybe a slower powder such as IMR 4831?
Cal

Thanks Cal.

Yes, that is the powder / load Sam Rose suggested to me. I have been using AR2209 (H4350), Re15 and N160, N560 and N150 as they are the powders I have in hand.

I may just have to get some H4831 if I do not get good regulation loads from these.

The main reason I was looking at the powders I have is recoil. H4831 uses a good 6 to 10 grains more powder & corresponding recoil. I think I will be fine with this if just shooting off hand or off sticks. On the bench some of my current loads are really beating up my cheek bone! I even got my finger skinned on the left barrel shot.

Hi,

Have you considered N140 or N160 from Vihtavouri ? They gave good result both for speed and accuracy in my VC 450 NE.

Morten

Sorry I see you mention N160 above… Have you tried it ?