THE ACCURATERELOADING.COM DOUBLE RIFLES FORUM

Accuratereloading.com    The Accurate Reloading Forums    THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS  Hop To Forum Categories  Rifles  Hop To Forums  Double Rifles    The Double Rifle Bullet of the Future!
Page 1 ... 23 24 25 26
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
The Double Rifle Bullet of the Future!
 Login/Join
 
one of us
Picture of LionHunter
posted Hide Post
Michael-

Please request Dan and Nate test a 500NE 510gr v. 570gr BBW#13 solids. The comparison will help answer some of our current questions! Should be VERY interesting!


Mike
______________
DSC
DRSS (again)
SCI Life
NRA Life
Sables Life
Mzuri
IPHA

"To be a Marine is enough."
 
Posts: 3575 | Location: Silicon Valley | Registered: 19 November 2008Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by michael458:
quote:
That's why it would be such a great demo to actually see and compare!



Talked to Dan and Ken, They are going to do some BBW#13 Solids.........



Michael; I watched the clip and talk about devastation and trauma.

Glad to hear that they decided to test some 450 Non Con and BBW#13 solids, can't wait to see the results.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.


Best regards

Malek
Good Hunting/Shooting and God's best.
 
Posts: 809 | Location: Charlotte, NC | Registered: 25 December 2010Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of boom stick
posted Hide Post
Will be interesting to see the solids but they will need a lot of gel to stop them.


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
 
Posts: 26746 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by michael458:
Good morning Double guys! Sam and I pretty much concluded our "Barrel Strain" test work with the 470 Nitro yesterday. Starting right off we had a broken wire on the strain gage, almost shut us down completely. Sam managed to sort it out and we did get some additional readings on the 500 CEB BBW #13 Solids, copper and brass. While yesterdays readings were a tad higher than some previous readings, they were still equal to the 500 Woodleigh Soft Point--the benchmark bullet. Average of the BBW #13s both brass and copper still below that Benchmark, as are the North Fork Solids as well. In the end we lost the strain gage on the 470 Nitro and Sam will be removing it.

Here are the final results from everything, and later I will post this on the B&M website to replace the existing pdf document with this updated one.

Just FYI and make of it what you will!







Michael


Here is one of the barrel strain tests

Sam.
 
Posts: 2801 | Location: NC | Registered: 08 July 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of michael458
posted Hide Post
Sam

The 458 caliber and 500 Nitro were better testes where we reduced the loads to get nothing but the barrel strain with no chamber pressure following the bullet... Basically same but less... than the 470s...
M


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by michael458:
Now that I had a really consistent, good connection I proceeded to go to work. You may take note that on Mondays work the numbers are much lower than on the previous work, for whatever reason, whether it is environmental, electrical, or maybe the way I was holding my mouth at the time, this is the way it is. And the reason if one is comparing a run of bullets, have to do them all at once to get that days comparisons, especially with little built up data over a long period of time, which we do not have, nor does anyone else on the planet! Now in addition to this, with such close numbers on any given test the ranking can change from one test to the next.

For example of this on your data sheet below, take a look at 480 CEB 3 Band at 11653 and the 480 CEB 4 Band at 11695. That is no difference, the next test that could easy turn around in ranking and be the other way around. Even a few hundred PSI difference is nothing to even look at.

Now, I am trying to learn right along with you guys. From all I gather from you double guys is that a Woodleigh Soft is a relatively "DOUBLE SAFE" bullet, and that most all of you are fine with that. So I use that as a "BENCHMARK" bullet. If a bullets strain on the barrels is less than a Woodleigh Soft, and that is consistent, then it must be OK. It strain comes in OVER that Benchmark Bullet, then I think I would look at that with a serious concern. Even with some of the bullets that are very close in test to test, the overall rankings fall pretty much in line with both .458 and the 470s that Sam and I did. I have taken the liberty on one of the data sheets to combine the different tests in 3 different rankings so you can see that some things cross lines regardless of caliber or barrel.

This was Mondays work. Now to continue this I am planning on next week doing a chamber pressure test on all the most important bullets used. With that we will be able to see what bullets have the lowest pressures as well. This data will be added when that is complete. From there, I really don't know where to go with this.



Michael


Here is another strain test that Michael did with much lower pressures to be sure we weren't getting false reading from full power loads. Everything pretty much fell right into place.

Sam
 
Posts: 2801 | Location: NC | Registered: 08 July 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by michael458:
Sam and I had our work cut out for us yesterday, we spent from around 8 am to around 5:30 pm or 6 on the range. It was a long day to say the least.

When we first started the pressures and barrel strain work we had a short test of fillers, dacron and foam backer rod. Of which there were some major differences in pressures and velocities of those, much to our surprise. Yesterday we investigated this with some different fillers with the same load.

Here are the results of that;




As you can see there are some EXTREME differences with some of these fillers that could drive pressures beyond safe limits and cause lot's of issues for you!

Michael


Here is part of filler test we did.
 
Posts: 2801 | Location: NC | Registered: 08 July 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
High barrel strain with cast bullets.... Does that make sense? What is "barrel strain" a measure of then?
 
Posts: 446 | Location: Norway | Registered: 11 November 2011Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Huvius
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Norsk:
High barrel strain with cast bullets.... Does that make sense? What is "barrel strain" a measure of then?


Good question.
Maybe the strain for that last cast was an anomaly or error of some sort.
 
Posts: 2382 | Location: Colorado U.S.A. | Registered: 24 December 2004Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Very informative posts! Especially for us black powder double rifle shooters! Looks like backer rod is the way to go and maybe why dacron has caused some chamber ringing by being inconsistent in pressure. I also am interested in higher pressure using lead bullets.
 
Posts: 80 | Location: Toronto, Ohio | Registered: 11 May 2007Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Mike Brooks
posted Hide Post
Read about the barrel strain tests here

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...tional-Research.html


NRA Life
ASSRA Life
DRSS

Today's Quote:
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime.
 
Posts: 4094 | Location: Anchorage Ak | Registered: 19 November 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
The explanation for the soft cast bullets having the highest pressure is that they are "slugging up the bore"... This test seems more and more like pseudoscience or at least bad science. I am no physicist, but what about friction and wear on the rifling? Maybe cast bullets have highest pressure down the bore and that the thin barrels with soft steel can on rare occasions be damaged by this. But this does but translate to banded brass bullets (especially CEBs...any affiliation bias here?) being easier on normal barrels than other bullets..?
 
Posts: 446 | Location: Norway | Registered: 11 November 2011Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Thanks guys, I do have a degree in physics (40 years ago)but can't add much except that I have driven lead bullets through the barrels of my black powder double rifles to get the size mold I need and would never try to drive a jacketed bullet through a barrel. I don't think I could! I am really not concerned about the barrel strain from lead bullets as that is all I use, but more concerned about Dacron vs backer rod. I have seen a black powder double rifle by a best maker with Whitworth steel barrels that had ringed chambers from smokeless powder and fillers. I don't know what filler was used but I will bet Dacron as I know of another double rifle (black powder bottleneck case) that was ringed by using Dacron. Maybe sticking with black powder is the safest way to go!
 
Posts: 80 | Location: Toronto, Ohio | Registered: 11 May 2007Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Rusty
posted Hide Post
Here is a thread on the subject of fillers. I hope this helps.
5744 and fillers thread

I have been using RL-15/Norma 203B with Dacron and foam fillers in my vintage 450/400 3 inch and in my 404 Jeffery Loads. There is no ringing problem with Nitro Proofed loads!


Rusty
We Band of Brothers!
DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member

"I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends."
----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836
"I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841
"for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson
Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“For as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.”
 
Posts: 9718 | Location: Missouri City, Texas | Registered: 21 June 2000Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of ledvm
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Norsk:
High barrel strain with cast bullets.... Does that make sense? What is "barrel strain" a measure of then?


Barrel strain is the change in circumference of the barrel when a bullet passes through it as compared to the barrel's circumference at rest.


____________

Lane

Progressives don’t just have disdain for Conservatives...they loathe the very ground they walk on.
 
Posts: 27908 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Thank you. So that means it is only relevant as possible indicator of stress that may contribute to the unlikely event of barrel separation? I would belive hardness/surface area/pressure, and most of all type and ammount of gunpowder is responsible for normal barrel wear. Say non banded brass bullets with a steel core in high pressure rounds being worst and soft cast low pressure rounds being easiest on the barrels?
 
Posts: 446 | Location: Norway | Registered: 11 November 2011Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of ledvm
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Norsk:
Thank you. So that means it is only relevant as possible indicator of stress that may contribute to the unlikely event of barrel separation? I would belive hardness/surface area/pressure, and most of all type and ammount of gunpowder is responsible for normal barrel wear. Say non banded brass bullets with a steel core in high pressure rounds being worst and soft cast low pressure rounds being easiest on the barrels?


Norsk,
This has been hashed out a million times on this and other threads.

Barrel strain is the BEST indicator we have to measure stress put on a barrel when a projectile passes through it. The higher the strain...the more stress put on the steel of a barrel...simple as that.


____________

Lane

Progressives don’t just have disdain for Conservatives...they loathe the very ground they walk on.
 
Posts: 27908 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Norsk:
High barrel strain with cast bullets.... Does that make sense? What is "barrel strain" a measure of then?


There are a few things to consider in this case, two of them being:

- Lead has a higher friction coefficient than copper, which in turn has a higher coefficient of friction than bronze

- The "low pressure" bronze and copper bullets tested here have driving bands, i.e. thin ridges that insure obturation with minimum displacement of metal. Lead bullets, on the other hand, are subject to plastic deformation of the base (think Minié), being basically subject to continuous swaging as they ride down the bore.

In other words, once the rifling is engraved in a bronze bullet's ridges, which happens as soon as the bullet enters the bore, that bullet basically rides down the barrel without much deformation or strain. On the other hand, a lead bullet will exert pressure outwards on the barrel's walls due to the "swaging" effect, all the while riding on a much larger surface with higher friction.


Philip


 
Posts: 1249 | Location: East Africa | Registered: 14 November 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of ledvm
posted Hide Post
Exactly Philip.


____________

Lane

Progressives don’t just have disdain for Conservatives...they loathe the very ground they walk on.
 
Posts: 27908 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Rusty
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Philip A.:
quote:
Originally posted by Norsk:
High barrel strain with cast bullets.... Does that make sense? What is "barrel strain" a measure of then?


There are a few things to consider in this case, two of them being:

- Lead has a higher friction coefficient than copper, which in turn has a higher coefficient of friction than bronze

- The "low pressure" bronze and copper bullets tested here have driving bands, i.e. thin ridges that insure obturation with minimum displacement of metal. Lead bullets, on the other hand, are subject to plastic deformation of the base (think Minié), being basically subject to continuous swaging as they ride down the bore.

In other words, once the rifling is engraved in a bronze bullet's ridges, which happens as soon as the bullet enters the bore, that bullet basically rides down the barrel without much deformation or strain. On the other hand, a lead bullet will exert pressure outwards on the barrel's walls due to the "swaging" effect, all the while riding on a much larger surface with higher friction.


A good explanation, Philip! Thanks!


Rusty
We Band of Brothers!
DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member

"I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends."
----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836
"I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841
"for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson
Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“For as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.”
 
Posts: 9718 | Location: Missouri City, Texas | Registered: 21 June 2000Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Ok. Makes sense. Thanks!
 
Posts: 446 | Location: Norway | Registered: 11 November 2011Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of MacD37
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
M458:
You have my apologies if I offended you but I am not looking down my nose at you as I don't know who you are. When this topic was brought to my attention I reviewed the posts. My introductory comment was in reference to my original viewing of the topic. From a couple of sentences you wrote you seem to have a bit of displeasure toward double rifles. They may not blow "all to hell tomorrow" but they can sure be plagued by OSR if one is not careful. As to your comments to Chris, he is a fine gent.
Again, my apologies if I offended you. The same if my doubles cause a bit of contention, although I doubt I will trade them for a stainless, fluted, synthetic, whiz-bang magnum in the near future. And, I don't look down my nose at anyone--known or not.
Cheers,
Cal



Seems the smoke and mirrors opinions have need of being modified somewhat!


……………………………………………….. old


....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

 
Posts: 14521 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: 08 June 2000Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
btt
 
Posts: 324 | Location: Montana, USA | Registered: 29 April 2002Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Probably the best double tread on AR. Sam is a stud
 
Posts: 326 | Location: British Columbia | Registered: 13 April 2012Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of MacD37
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by ELeeton:

I would like to appeal to your scientific curiosity when I pose the following. When we test in the lab we attempt to replicate the circumstances under which the original problem occurred. I think 450 NE No2 in his posts a few pages back highlighted a critical variable that was missed in the recent lab tests about bullets causing OSR. I think his, Cal's and Mr. Wright's et. al. observations of OSR have occurred in DR's yet efforts to replicate have been conducted in single barrel guns. As 450 NE No2 points out the DR's have two barrels joined together by the rib which changes how the barrels respond and how they respond to one another. Is this the variable that would permit the replication of OSR in the lab?




Eleeton, the problem with the theory of it only occurring in double guns because of the solder joint is that my Ruger M-77 in 338WM had those barrel stripes. Most definitely a single barreled bolt action rifle. And once again, it came from the factory that way. Wasn't caused by a monometal bullet being fired down the tube!

Cheers.


Todd, we had that discussion way back, and I know you remember it. I told you then that the Ruger M-77 with strips on the barrel had nothing to do with hard bullets. As you say that rifle came from the maker that way, and it did. The reason for those stripes was from Hammer forging of the barrel that were not polished completely off at the factory. The high points originated on the outside of the barrel, while OSR originates from the inside out, and are sometimes very hard to see, and even harder to photograph. Those patterns like those on the M-77, are on all barrels that are hammer forged, but most makers polish them off before the rifles are sold, but some are left on the top six or eight inches end in front of the action for decoration. I know you do not believe OSR exist, and that is simply because you have never seen it, but I have and so have several other members of the DRSS , that was not there when when the double rifle was new.

Over and out! Carry on!
......................................... old MacD37


....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

 
Posts: 14521 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: 08 June 2000Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of McKay
posted Hide Post
I have a rifle with OSR on one barrel. You can see it by looking down the barrel with the light just right. Very nice gun and got at a great price so its fine to me and been to Africa a couple times. The barrel with OSR will typically shoot 150fps slower than the other barrel with all but 1 bullet I have tried. My thought is that barrel is not sealing as tight so gas escapes past the bullet? But shoot a Northfork bullet with those really small copper driving bands and the barrels are now shoot within 20ish fps of each other with excellent accuracy.


Mac

 
Posts: 1589 | Location: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: 01 February 2007Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Mac, I think you have OCD, not OSR :-) Hope you're taking are of my Marcel Thys 577!
 
Posts: 18352 | Location: Very NW NJ up in the Mountains | Registered: 14 June 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of McKay
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Biebs:
Mac, I think you have OCD, not OSR :-) Hope you're taking are of my Marcel Thys 577!


With the best care possible! Crazy accurate rifle. A real crowd pleaser!


Mac

 
Posts: 1589 | Location: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: 01 February 2007Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Todd Williams
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by MacD37:
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by ELeeton:

I would like to appeal to your scientific curiosity when I pose the following. When we test in the lab we attempt to replicate the circumstances under which the original problem occurred. I think 450 NE No2 in his posts a few pages back highlighted a critical variable that was missed in the recent lab tests about bullets causing OSR. I think his, Cal's and Mr. Wright's et. al. observations of OSR have occurred in DR's yet efforts to replicate have been conducted in single barrel guns. As 450 NE No2 points out the DR's have two barrels joined together by the rib which changes how the barrels respond and how they respond to one another. Is this the variable that would permit the replication of OSR in the lab?




Eleeton, the problem with the theory of it only occurring in double guns because of the solder joint is that my Ruger M-77 in 338WM had those barrel stripes. Most definitely a single barreled bolt action rifle. And once again, it came from the factory that way. Wasn't caused by a monometal bullet being fired down the tube!

Cheers.


Todd, we had that discussion way back, and I know you remember it. I told you then that the Ruger M-77 with strips on the barrel had nothing to do with hard bullets. As you say that rifle came from the maker that way, and it did. The reason for those stripes was from Hammer forging of the barrel that were not polished completely off at the factory. The high points originated on the outside of the barrel, while OSR originates from the inside out, and are sometimes very hard to see, and even harder to photograph. Those patterns like those on the M-77, are on all barrels that are hammer forged, but most makers polish them off before the rifles are sold, but some are left on the top six or eight inches end in front of the action for decoration. I know you do not believe OSR exist, and that is simply because you have never seen it, but I have and so have several other members of the DRSS , that was not there when when the double rifle was new.

Over and out! Carry on!
......................................... old MacD37


Very good Bigfoot documentary out on YouTube right now. Here's the link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7SpzTeodx0

The guy has very clear video of a few Bigfoot creatures. None of the old blurry out of focus stuff. The best one at 1:47:00 in the program. Several before that as well but that's the best one.

So that must mean he exists. Right? After all, this guy has SEEN it. With his own eyes. And has even videoed it for all to see.

Just like OSR!!!

Now if we can just get a good, clear, non-blurry video of Bigfoot riding on the back of Nessie!

Cool
 
Posts: 7832 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of MacD37
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by MacD37:
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:



Eleeton, the problem with the theory of it only occurring in double guns because of the solder joint is that my Ruger M-77 in 338WM had those barrel stripes. Most definitely a single barreled bolt action rifle. And once again, it came from the factory that way. Wasn't caused by a monometal bullet being fired down the tube!

Cheers.





Now if we can just get a good, clear, non-blurry video of Bigfoot riding on the back of Nessie!

Cool[/QUOTE]

jumping......Good one Todd! jumping
..................................................... oldMacD37 tu2


....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

 
Posts: 14521 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: 08 June 2000Reply With Quote
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 ... 23 24 25 26 
 

Accuratereloading.com    The Accurate Reloading Forums    THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS  Hop To Forum Categories  Rifles  Hop To Forums  Double Rifles    The Double Rifle Bullet of the Future!

Copyright December 1997-2020 Accuratereloading.com


Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia