Been doing real good Micahael, thanks for asking. Been just now the past couple of weeks working up loads with the solids in my 577. Almost have them shooting real good.

I will look through my bullets and see if I have some 458/500gn bullets. I think I do. PM me your address and I will get some in the mail.

Thank You

Hey Mac, address sent. If you have some that would be great.

465HH, very generous offer. I think we can come up with a few somewhere without having to buy a whole box of them. Mac may have some.

Michael

OK both a box of 458/500TSX and 458/500DGS coming your way. This will be interesting to see the data for the TSX in double rifles since for along time we have heard they are a no-no.

Thank You

Mac, 465HH and all concerned

I will start putting together a test run tomorrow, when the bullets arrive I will slot some time for it and get it done. I have to do an inventory of what I have to add enough for a proper comparison run. No problem!

I will check the strain gage, but it still should be good to go, I have it protected! Duct Tape!

You boys should get some of this duct tape I have, it's black, might help hold the barrels together on your rifles if they start to fall off or something! I always keep a roll with me!


I will keep you posted on the progress.

Michael

This is an email sent to Sam from his PH in Africa. The 577 is a double of course and the info here related I think.

quote:

Dear Sam:
I’m here in our camp in Rifa along the banks of the Zambezi River, reflecting on my hunts of the past season. I appreciate the cartridges you sent over loaded with the #13 solids and the Non-Con bullets. Their performance was truly remarkable.
The calibers that were used on my hunts included the .577 Nitro Express, .416 Remington Mag, and the .300 Jarrett.
I personally used my .577 to take down a charging hippo, a fleeing wounded Cape buffalo, and a backup shot on a trophy bull elephant. The bullets devastating and immediate shock and stopping power on the animals was as dramatic as I’ve witnessed in my 17 year professional hunting career. In all three cases, the animals hit the ground within seconds. The charging hippo plowed into the ground at my feet, the elephant dropped where it stood, and the fleeing Cape buffalo received a “Texas heart shot” and went down within 10-15 yards. I recovered the bullet from the buffalo under the hide of the chest. The bullet had blown through 5 feet of muscle, gut, and bone.
Most recently, my friend Doug Stein and I hunted Cape buffalo and various species of plains game. Doug was using the Non-Con bullet in his model 70 Winchester in .416 Remington mag. We ambushed a large mature buffalo after a brief stalk and Doug placed a shot behind the shoulder from approximately 35 yards. The stunning and swift shock on the buffalo’s system had him stumbling within a split second. The wounded buff tried to run with the other buffalo, however, he pulled up within 30 yards allowing Doug the time to place a 2nd shot behind the opposite shoulder. The 2nd shot literally swept the buffalo off his feet. I can tell you the geyser of blood rising from the wound was like none I have seen. Without being too graphic and over descriptive, I tell you this to properly describe the extraordinary amount of instantaneous hemorrhaging of the wound channel. Upon inspection of the buff’s vitals, I was amazed at the severity of the bullet wound including the multiple secondary wound channels from the bullet petals. No long walk required to follow up this buff!
Additionally, I was able to witness the .30 caliber Non-Con bullets used on a variety of other plains game species from Doug’s trusty .300 Jarrett. Without exception, each animal dropped in its tracks. The .30 caliber bullets included the plastic tip to help stabilize the bullets on longer shots over 200+ yards. The bullets performed with remarkable and consistent accuracy on each shot.
I plan to continue using these bullets in my rifle on all my future hunts. Thanks again for introducing me to these wonderful bullets.

Regards,

Cliff Walker
Professional Hunter
Walker/Watson African Safaris
wwalkerwatson@aol.com
Bulawayo, Zimbabwe

Cliff Walker
Walker & Watson Safaris
Cell: + 263 712 215 240
Cell: + 263 772 116 254
Office: Kerry + 263 9 240908
Office email: wwalkerwatson@aol.com

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Mac, 465HH and all concerned

I will start putting together a test run tomorrow, when the bullets arrive I will slot some time for it and get it done. I have to do an inventory of what I have to add enough for a proper comparison run. No problem!

I will check the strain gage, but it still should be good to go, I have it protected! Duct Tape!

You boys should get some of this duct tape I have, it's black, might help hold the barrels together on your rifles if they start to fall off or something! I always keep a roll with me!


I will keep you posted on the progress.

Michael

Michael,

You might want to try the DGSs at several different velocity levels. I suggest 2,050, 2,150 and 2300-2400 fps. Different rifles are regulated for different loads and pressure levels at these various velocities would be informative.

465H&H

465HH

Can't do that H. Here is why, when you start bumping over 45000 PSI Chamber pressures, on out towards the end of the barrel, where the Barrel Strain Gage is located, you start getting readings that are NOT barrels strain, but bumps in pressure following the bullet down the bore. I started out that way in the 458, just using full loads and high velocity, and the strain curves were jagged, uneven, very high, and not from actual bullet passing that point. I had to keep coming down in chamber pressure, and velocity until I could get that proper reading of the bullet passing the gage, and not gas and pressure, even recoil. On the first barrel strains that Sam and I did with the 470 Nitro, we got real lucky and got actual barrel strain, not left over chamber pressure following the bullet. Most all of these were standard 40000-45000 PSI loads. Well doing the barrel strain on 458s I use the 458 B&M, and 60000-65000 PSI and that just does not work at all as you get pressure bumps and wild readings down on the end of the barrel. It was not until I slowed things down to 45000 PSI that I actually started getting the bulge in the barrel of the bullet passing that point.

It's been a learning process, but I have a pretty good handle on what actual barrel strain looks like on the curve. It is pretty easy to see something that is out of place, or not barrel strain.

I have a good plan going for a new test, it will include something like 12-15 different bullets, and a few we have not done, 500 TSX, 450 TSX, 500 DGS, 500 GSC, and of course our "BenchMark" bullet, 500 Woodleigh Soft, along with North Forks, BBW#13s, and others we have done in the past as well. Several check bullets and loads to make sure we are getting actual barrel strain and not other things introduced.

I had thought to be able to do this next week, I had forgot that week is Thanksgiving, I may not be able to do it until afterwards, depends on the work load here.

Michael

To give you an example of what is a good barrel strain, and one that has been effected by either electrical, or a connection issue with the same bullet, at the same velocity and same load. Pretty easy to recognize something is wrong with the first one.

This first one was not effected by chamber pressures, however the ones that are look like this, or worse.




This is a proper barrel strain curve.




And these are very good examples of what you want to see.

Micheal:

Is the four band the final version of the double rifle bullets? I want to try some of those 280 grain .366 bullets that you sent me in my Chapuis.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Micheal:

Is the four band the final version of the double rifle bullets? I want to try some of those 280 grain .366 bullets that you sent me in my Chapuis.

Dave

Yes, the 4-Band is final, has been, and done. During the barrel strain tests in February of this year we came up with all sorts of 3-band versions, 3 at .458, 3 at .457, 3 bands, X2 at .457 and bottom one .456, and some other combos as I recall, but in the end there was not enough difference between the 3 band and the 4 band to justify the concerns. As you see below. So at that time we gave no more thought to 3 bands, 4 bands become the standard and remain so.

Talked to a chap the other day that shot 3 big scrub bulls, 1500 + lbs, all with the 9.3 255 BBW#13 NonCon, and performance was beyond incredible, I think 2 dropped immediately on the spot never to move again, the 3rd one made a mad dash for about 50 yds before dropping for the count. Not bad for a medium bore.

Again I ask, if a medium bore will do this, have we come full circle on the .458 Lott?

You know Dave that the thread got out of context. I am pretty sure I got the jest of what you were trying to get across to everyone, and it was not that the 458 Lott was made "Obsolete", but the fact that with todays bullet tech, and new powders, it was just not "Required" or "Necessary" to achieve the desired results.

At one time, I concur, the 458 Lott and larger capacity cartridges were needed or desirable, as there were not powders available for lesser capacity cartridges to meet velocity goals needed, and bullets available 30-40 years ago......... Well, I need say no more, should be easy to understand.

Anywho..........

I received a box of 500 gr Hornady DGS and a Box of 500 gr Barnes TSX for the upcoming Barrel Strain tests! Courtesy of McKay! Thank you McKay, we will put them to good use to extend our base of knowledge!


I have to apologize, it is pretty much done deal, I will not be able to do the Barrel Strains next week! We are leaving on Wednesday, leaves me Monday and Tuesday to sort things out to be able to do that, and here it is now, already Friday tomorrow! I will however do my best this weekend to have the test loaded, prepared and ready to jump on the following week. I have to be on the range in the morning, I will test the strain gage to make sure it is still good to go. I think at least I can get the entire test prepared and planned so that at the first opportunity the week after Thanksgiving I can get on it.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Sam and I had our work cut out for us yesterday, we spent from around 8 am to around 5:30 pm or 6 on the range. It was a long day to say the least.

When we first started the pressures and barrel strain work we had a short test of fillers, dacron and foam backer rod. Of which there were some major differences in pressures and velocities of those, much to our surprise. Yesterday we investigated this with some different fillers with the same load.

Here are the results of that;




As you can see there are some EXTREME differences with some of these fillers that could drive pressures beyond safe limits and cause lot's of issues for you!

Michael

Thought I'd bring this back to the top so those wondering about fillers might see it.

Sam

Sam: I noticed that dacron filler also created excessive pressure. I thought a lot of folks used it with no problems. Can you expand on this please? Also, Michael do you have a similar table for the 450NE thanks! jorge

Jorge,

Yes we found that dacron did give us higher pressures and very inconsistant. I used to use dacron but no longer. All the foam products seem to work really well and are very consistant. My accuracy and regulation are much more consistant with foam.

Sam

Thank you sir. As I ssaid, I ordered some 45 cal .06" foam wads from Buff arms and see how those work out. I do have some test rounds loaded with dacron but I also have a playing card wad up against the powder with the dacron over the top to keep it in place. It's only 84gr of RL-15 so not too hot,

Jorge is this for the 450NE?

I was able yesterday to test the strain gage that is hooked up for barrel strain. It seems to still be functional, and should be no issue, good hookup.

Today, I am on the range early, doing PTs on the new 475 B&M. Possible during the day I can test the gage further by actually running a couple of barrel strains, just to make sure everything is still working proper. Hopefully so, and if so I should be able to have the entire test loaded and ready to do for the week after Thanksgiving.

M

Now that I am starting to catch up on things, how did the barrel strain tests go this morning?

Doc
No Man, you are still behind! No barrel strains today. I did however come to an excellent point with the 475 B&M that I have been doing data on now for a few weeks! Where I wanted to be with it.

Still working on the new barrel strain test, but it will come just after Thanksgiving now.

Getting it ready.

Michael

Guess I still have a lot of catching up to do

Paul

How fast were you running the 375 Flanged with the BBW#13 NonCon? I did not know you were doing a 375?


M

I had ordered a few boxes of 300g CEB#13 solids and a few of the 275g Non-Cons fo my Verney-Carron 375Flanged Magnum.

The solids ran just over 2,500fps while the Non-Cons ran about 2,468fps over the same amount of Reloader 25. Both shot to the same point of aim without crossing.

Can't be any happier with both Verney-Carron double rifles and with Cutting Edge Bullets.

Thanks Michael, Sam, Dan and everyone else who brought these bullets to fruition.

Doc

Good deal, Mac is going to run some NoNCons in his 375 double as well. Asked me about low end velocity shear on the bullet, exact low end velocity I do not know on this one, but suspect it would be around the 1700 fps mark like most of them, maybe 100 fps one way or the other at most. Starting at 2450 or so, it will be a ways out before dropping to 1700 fps. If I were you double guys, I would look at adding a tip to these and see how they do. You won't drop much velocity then, and you don't worry about feeding! Put the Talon tip in!


Michael

Well I told you I was going to get our new Barrel Strain test ready, and I have done a lot to get there. I tested the strain gage out today with some actual loads, just loaded some of the BBW#13s, North Fork and Hornady DGS to see what happens. It seemed to be a good hookup, so I extended it slightly to make sure.

Now this is ONLY a PRELIMINARY Test--I only shot 2 rounds in each test, and this is not official by any stretch, so make no assumptions about anything until I do the full test next week. I have not made up my mind yet to do either 3 or 5 rounds in the full test. If I do 5, barrel is going to heat up, it is going to take a lot more time, I need to finish in One Day and One Hookup only. I am leaning heavy to 5 rounds each this time around.

I suspect the test next week will show much the same lineup. Some that are real close like the BBW#13s and the North Forks, they can Switch back and forth on any given test, they are basically the same.

Remember, just preliminary, not official, but I thought I would share it with you anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Doc

Good deal, Mac is going to run some NoNCons in his 375 double as well. Asked me about low end velocity shear on the bullet, exact low end velocity I do not know on this one, but suspect it would be around the 1700 fps mark like most of them, maybe 100 fps one way or the other at most. Starting at 2450 or so, it will be a ways out before dropping to 1700 fps. If I were you double guys, I would look at adding a tip to these and see how they do. You won't drop much velocity then, and you don't worry about feeding! Put the Talon tip in!


Michael

Hey Michael,

Still way behind in reading and incredibly busy with official responsibilities but do I need special non-cons to use the tip or will it work with what I have?

Thanks

Doc
No special tips required. Talon tips are made for each individual caliber of BBW#13s. I don't have any in the big bores, but Dan should have some. Not sure about the 375s however. Will have to find out.

Michael

THE REAL BARREL STRAIN TEST! I always do my best to keep my word, and this week was slated for the Barrel Strain test I had been promising you guys. I think Todd wanted data on the Barnes TSX and 465HH wanted data on the Hornady DGS, some more of you were interested in the same thing, so McKay was kind enough to have both of these bullets sent to me, Above and Beyond, and 450NE sent some 450 Barnes TSX some time ago--Was supposed to do terminals with them as well, but have used most of them for the two barrel strain tests, the preliminary above a couple of posts, and this one as well.

I had told you I was torn between 3-5 rounds for each test. I decided mixed bag, I did 5 rounds on most, especially the bullets we had not tested, and 3 with the ones we have tested many times. On some of the 5 round tests there were 1 or two obvious electrical or some other anomaly that did not match with the majority, I threw those crazy traces out. This also occurred with a couple of the 3 round tests. Bad traces are easy to see, some are induced by recoil if I don't do everything just right it gets a bounce on the end where the strain gage is connected to the wires, wires get jerked, so you get peaks "After the Bullet has left the barrel" so you know that is an erroneous reading!

The 450 North Fork FPS I had bad luck with all 3 traces. There was some sort of noise consistent after the bullet had left the barrel giving readings of 40000-50000 so there was no data on that. I left it in the same ranking, but with no data, this bullet has been tested in every test, and it's always right there with the BBW#13, so I did not move it, but it has 0 data.

One thing please take notice, all you South Africa guys can be proud as well of the GSC, which came in low in both the Preliminary Test, and this one too. I can't recall, but I think Gerard has always stated his bullets were safe in doubles. This data would tend to concur. I had these bullets courtesy of Lionhunters hunting partner, he sent an entire box of them, I thought it would be good to include these as we have not tested any GSC before.

OK very important that you understand and interpret the data correctly. YOU CANNOT compare the actual numbers in the data from one test to the next. As you can see from the Prelim test on 11/22/2011 that the numbers are not the same as this test on 11/30/2011. Each day will give you slightly different numbers, environmental, electrical, hot, cold, or just VooDoo Magic, the numbers will not be the same from one test to the next.

What you do pay particular attention to is the RANKING of the bullets up and down the line. What I have seen in test after test is that the RANKING from top to bottom does not change much from the BASELINE--- OR BENCHMARK BULLET--Which is the 500 gr Woodleigh Soft. In every single test done thus far, whether in the 458 or the 470 this ranking of top to bottom does not change much at all. All the BBW#13s, North Forks have been far below the BenchMark Bullet, and all the ones you guys have always said are a problem for doubles has been ABOVE the BenchMark Bullet.

Even some of these numbers are very close on yesterdays test, but I don't think the ranking changed not one bullet from the Preliminary test on 11/22/2011, which falls right in line. I might be wrong, I have not gone over this test perfectly to check the ranking, but I don't think it changed, we will see soon as I post it.




Any questions? Comments? Anything?

Hope this helps you guys some.

Michael

Michael,

I suggest that you include the velocity and load data for these tests.

465H&H

All at 56/H-322 and velocity from 1791 to 1881. None of which has any bearing at the end of the barrel as the bullet passes that point on the strain gage. All the loads with 56/H-322 give a chamber pressure of from 40000-45000 PSI, which is where I had to be to keep from getting a pressure bump in the trace. Higher pressures would not give a true measure of barrel strain.

Michael

As always, good stuff Michael

While I can say nothing of barrel strain with GSCustom bullets, I can say they were the most accurate bullets out of my first Verney-Carron 600NE. I haven't yet tried them in my current 600NE nor my other doubles.

You had trouble with teh GSC bullets in the TBP evaluation of my 600OK - not enough neck tension if I remember correctly. Maybe we can convince Biebs to send his new 600OK and brass so you can solder leads to his barrel re-test the .620 GSC for both TBP and barrel strain

Michael, the last time I looked at so many graphs and tables, I had a Physics test afterwards! :-)

Doc

I don't know, if Biebs wants to send his new rifle down to me, I think I will just take it straight to the welding shop and have a gage attached permanently on both chamber end and on the barrel strain end, back from the muzzle a few inches. Just add some extra weight is all, I will have a great big knarley looking gob of metal put on over the gages to protect them! I think that will work better. Ya Biebs, when you get it, send it on down-I will sort it out for ya!

Also, Biebs, there will be a test on all this stuff, I will have it ready for you at DSC when we get together, so sharpen your pencils and study well! HEH

Hey, sharpen THIS !!!! :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Hey, sharpen THIS !!!! :-)

Thank you Michael. I guess that puts to rest that the TSX are safe. Still not my choice for a double but if you think a solid is safe like a dgs or woody solid then the TSX should be fine.

Mac

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
Thank you Michael. I guess that puts to rest that the TSX are safe. Still not my choice for a double but if you think a solid is safe like a dgs or woody solid then the TSX should be fine.

Mac

Whoa Mac! Hold up a bit. Personally, and this is ONLY my opinion, which don't count for crap, but look at the data close--You guys tell me that you all consider the Woodleigh Soft a SAFE bullet in any double, I think I have been told even the older ones as well. So when Sam and I started doing the barrel strains we considered the Woodleigh Soft-In both 470 Nitro and in 458 caliber to be the BENCHMARK bullet to go by.

So in my opinion--- Anything that comes UNDER the Woodleigh Soft would for sure be considered SAFE--Anything OVER the Woodleigh Soft then that is up to each of you guys with doubles to decide if it is SAFE or not, not me. That's how I look at it.


Lets review the test that was done back at the end of February, which was a rather extensive one at that time. Take Notice of the bullets that fall UNDER the Woodleigh Soft, and notice of those OVER the Woodleigh Soft. Those with higher numbers--well they are showing MORE barrel strain, than the Woodleigh Soft.




Again on this the 470 Strain Data is included, but this is a summary of the Ranking System--Those below the Woodleigh even in 470 are basically the same as the 458 tests.



Preliminary Test a couple of weeks ago



And the trend continues with yesterdays data as well.




Michael

If I am looking at the data correctly. I was only really concerned about the barrel strain on the TSX in the past. If I am reading your above charts correctly when a TSX of the same weight is matched up to a woody soft the TSX has higher strain numbers it looks like....

Mac

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
If I am looking at the data correctly. I was only really concerned about the barrel strain on the TSX in the past. If I am reading your above charts correctly when a TSX of the same weight is matched up to a woody soft the TSX has higher strain numbers it looks like....

Mac

Mac

Correct--500 TSX has something like 11% more strain on the barrel than the Woodleigh Soft, 450 TSX has 7% more strain than the Woodleigh Soft. How much is TOO MUCH? Good Question, I can't really answer that one! The Hornady DGS is a whopping 20% more barrel strain. That seems substantial to me, but again, how much is too much? And how many times over time as well?

I wish I could really tell you more, about all I can do is show you what I came up with, to draw conclusions, well it would be nothing but opinion I think, of which I am not short of by no means, but I really don't want to inject my opinions on a matter that I have so little real experience with. With that being said and hopefully understood I can tell you how I would look at the data.

Sam being far more experienced than I will ever be in the rest of my lifetime, I hope you will state an opinion that is far more experienced as well.

Opinion #1-- My own--I would be less concerned with any bullet that consistently came in with less barrel strain than than the Woodleigh Soft. I would consider closely shooting a bullet that came in substantially higher than the Woodleigh Soft consistently. Substantial? That's for you to decide, all double rifles are not created equal I think and each has to make a judgment call depending on the rifle you have. A very old antique rifle--I would not shoot anything unless it was SUBSTANTIALLY less strain than a Woodleigh Soft--Consistently so.

Sam?????

Anyone else have thoughts on this please--I am not the expert here, just the guy with the numbers! HELP!!!!!!!!!



Michael

Michael,

As you know I was always concerned with how much possible damage a solid might cause in a double rifles barrels. This was the reason we did these barrel strain tests. I never really worried about shooting softs in a double but solids? In old original doubles with their thin barrel walls and old soft solder joints a solid that put lots of strain on them could cause damage. Also these old guns the steel is not very hard and probably not much more the plain carbon steel. I've read about spilt barrels and split ribs. The old mono solids were always thought to be bad on them. Your tests prove the point that they do put more strain out at the end of the barrels. I have a few old doubles that I'd never shoot a solid in because of the chance of ruining them. Now after seeing what each bullet does I would not worry too much about shooting a solid that showed less strain than a soft point. I still wouldn't shoot a steel jacketed solid or steel jacketed soft point in an older double. Bolt guns with their thicker barrel walls and modern steels probably not a problem at all. Like you I'd say that people can make up their own minds about what is safe in their guns. Thanks for all the work you have done even though you don't own a double.

Sam