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Bolt lock issue
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Picture of Jarrod
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I have a 1976 Mfg 700 Adl in 243 that I inherited when I was a kid. The bolt would would always lock when the safety was on. Now the bolt doesn’t lock when on safe. What usually causes this?
Also what years did Remington use the Walker triggers?


"Science only goes so far then God takes over."
 
Posts: 3494 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: 07 July 2005Reply With Quote
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Walker Trigger (1947 – 2006)
The original trigger was invented by Merle Walker in 1947 and soon became the standard factory trigger system in Remington's Model 721. This over-ride trigger system was like Winchester's over-ride Sako Trigger, although it utilized twin sears.

About your bolt not locking when on safe, I don't know.
 
Posts: 106 | Location: Colorado | Registered: 16 April 2019Reply With Quote
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Try posting this in the gunsmithing forum but I believe it was around 1983.


_____________________________
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*we band of 45-70ers*
 
Posts: 2262 | Location: Washington (wetside) | Registered: 08 February 2005Reply With Quote
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The change came after the warranty replacement of old triggers. When the lock down bolt was used some of the triggers would allow the rifles to fire when release to open the bolt. This change would let you open the bolt without firing. This happened to me in a 722 222 back before they started the change out.

This is what I remember
 
Posts: 880 | Location: Texas | Registered: 19 May 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
The bolt would would always lock when the safety was on. Now the bolt doesn’t lock when on safe. What usually causes this?

First, are you sure the safety is actually "on"? Check with an unloaded chamber to see if the trigger will pull with the safety in the "on" position.

If the safety is functioning properly this means that the little stamped tab which engages a small groove in the bolt when the safety is in the rearward position is worn or broken. This is actually not a bad thing since you can now unload your rifle without taking the safety off and exposing yourself to an accidental discharge as the old Remington triggers were prone to do when dirty or gummed up.
 
Posts: 12607 | Location: Henly, TX, USA | Registered: 04 April 2001Reply With Quote
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That is why Remington is facing thousands of multimillion dollar law suits not counting the many they have settled out of cort re: accidental deaths and why they keep changing hands and IMO are near or in bank ruptsy according to the legal beagals Ive talked to..


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 36786 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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A long time back in the '70's

I worked in a shop that did warranty work on most brands of guns. I was seeing rifles come in that customers claimed would fire on pushing the safety off. I had to write reports on what the problem was with these triggers. The main problem was people would use the wrong type of lub after they tried to make the pull lighter. Without knowing that you had to have a certain amount of sear and spring pressure to keep these working without firing when the safety moved forward.

I got a call one time from some lawyers office and they asked me question about the the trigger problems over the phone. I refused to answer any of their questions and told them to talk to the owner of the shop. So the next thing to happen was a couple of lawyers from one of the cases shows up and request the owner to have a meeting with them. They didn't ask me anything until after the meeting with the owner and then as they left the store one of them asked me about a report which I had written 10 or 12 yrs before. The case which they were working told me that the owner had admitted adjusting the trigger. I told the lawyer that I would not answer any questions in court or any place where a person admits working on a trigger.

I STILL DON'T LIKE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS ON THE SAFETY OF A GUN, I had a new o/u 20 ga in the box that the customer wanted to see a pattern of how the chokes were with a pattern , so he asked me to test fire a pattern for him. As I opened the new shotgun all was OK until I closed the action in the test room. BANG !! It shot a hole into the bottom of the wall in the test room. Almost all guns can fire if a grain of sand or trash is in the trigger area.

BE CAREFULL OF WHAT YOU TELL PEOPLE ABOUT A TRIGGER OR A SAFETY ON GUNS!!
 
Posts: 880 | Location: Texas | Registered: 19 May 2004Reply With Quote
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Picture of Jarrod
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quote:
Originally posted by Stonecreek:
quote:
The bolt would would always lock when the safety was on. Now the bolt doesn’t lock when on safe. What usually causes this?

First, are you sure the safety is actually "on"? Check with an unloaded chamber to see if the trigger will pull with the safety in the "on" position.

If the safety is functioning properly this means that the little stamped tab which engages a small groove in the bolt when the safety is in the rearward position is worn or broken. This is actually not a bad thing since you can now unload your rifle without taking the safety off and exposing yourself to an accidental discharge as the old Remington triggers were prone to do when dirty or gummed up.


So far I have never been able too pull the trigger in the on position. Currently it is the only model 700 I have. Being as it was my grandpas I baby the rifle. Maybe I should just put a new trigger in it as not worry about they issue.


"Science only goes so far then God takes over."
 
Posts: 3494 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: 07 July 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Maybe I should just put a new trigger in it as not worry about they issue.

I think that would be wise.
 
Posts: 12607 | Location: Henly, TX, USA | Registered: 04 April 2001Reply With Quote
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There is no such event as an accidental discharge. There are negligent discharges. Keep your finger off of triggers until you're ready to shoot. It's so easy, even a caveman can do it.

Lawyers schtick is to craft an illusion of a problem, link the illusion to a source, and then fleece the source. Lawyering isn't about justice. It's about creating illusions of negligence as reason to steal what others have earned. There's darned good reason why Americans rank lawyers among America's least admired professions, except I would not elevate lawyering to a profession. Lawyering is a legalized con.

My first big game rifle was a Model 700 .270 Win. While not intending to jinx myself, in the 40+ years I've owned it, I've never had a problem with it.

Some 20 years ago, my brother negligently discharged my Model 700. He closed its bolt on a chambered round WITH HIS FINGER ON ITS TRIGGER. Thank God he had the sense to have its muzzle pointed skyward. BTW, he is a shyster lawyer. Had he killed someone, he'd have attempted to blame Remington. However, deputies wouldn't have bought what would have been his stupid attempt to shift blame. HIS negligence, not Remington, would have been causal of another's death.

What is so difficult to comprehend about keeping fingers off triggers until hunters/shooters are ready to shoot?

There was nothing wrong with the Walker trigger. Shysters saw opportunity to blame Remington for negligence of Model 700 owners. Lawyers were in it for personal gain, not concern for safety of others.

That's how I interpreted the "Walker trigger" problem, which was a user negligence problem.
 
Posts: 136 | Location: So Cal | Registered: 03 November 2018Reply With Quote
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I had a 700 go off when opening the bolt 100% sure finger was NOT on the trigger.
 
Posts: 3136 | Location: san angelo tx | Registered: 18 November 2009Reply With Quote
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Well, having replaced dozens of Walker triggers in Remingtons, in my job at a service center, I can confidently say the issue was with the factory lube used at the time. It reminds me of the gummy residue that forms on the outside of cookware. Only a few of the triggers had been tampered or adjusted by the user. I've seen some that were so locked up that you couldn't pull the trigger. That's why Remington replaced the lube with graphite.

If a shooter has the trigger on safe, and happens to pull on the trigger, the trigger or sear may seize and stay in the sear release position for a short period of time or even remain there. Then, if the shooter releases the safety the rifle will fire because the sear is not supported by the trigger.

This is where the bolt lock issue comes in. If a shooter were to recognize that their trigger seized there would be no way to extract the chambered round without taking the safety off since the bolt lock tab is part of the safety. At that point the safety is the only thing keeping it from firing. The safety has become the trigger. By removing the lock feature the shooter could raise the bolt with the safety on and extract the live round. That's why Remington recalled those triggers. When we got them the procedure was to cut off the part of the lock tab that protruded into the lug raceway.

The Walker trigger is a good trigger for a production rifle. It gives precise control of sear engagement and weight of pull for nice crisp let-offs. But it has tight internal tolerances and is subject to fouling. The cure is to simply take it apart and clean it periodically. Then lube with a non-gumming oil or graphite. If you don't like the bolt lock feature you can cut off enough of the arm so it can't engage the bolt root.

Now to the OP's original question. If you remember the bolt locking and now it doesn't lock, either the locking tab was removed or the safety is gummed up and not able to push the tab up far enough to engage.

Bob
 
Posts: 2552 | Location: SC,USA | Registered: 07 March 2002Reply With Quote
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Hi Bobster,

Thanks a million for your contribution. It factually revealed the true story behind pettifoggers' spin.

I agree that the Walker trigger was a good trigger.

I've known and know many, many hunters who hunt with the famed Model 700 with Walker triggers. I have never, ever heard of a single problem with the Walker trigger.

It seems that far too many hunters have failed to recognize Remington's genius when it introduced the famed Model 700.

Hunting is known as the Sport of kings. It required a substantial investment to amass hardware required to hunt big game. For the working men of America living on strict budgets, military surplus rifles were their only option. Unmodified military rifles were far from optimum for hunting big game.

Remington revolutionized big game hunting with its introduction of the Model 700. Remington made it possible for working men throughout the world to participate in the Sport of Kings with its comparatively inexpensive yet extremely accurate and reliable Model 700. Hunters carrying Model 700s afield were on equal footing or better with hunters carrying rifles beyond the monetary reach of working men.

Remington had to closely monitor production costs in effort to manufacture the Model 700 and price it within working men's budgets.

I completely understand Remington's underrated and unrecognized contribution to the Sport of Kings. It manufactured an excellent quality rifle that was within working men's budgets.

I've fired many brands of rifles. Without close equals, the most accurate were Model 700s and Sako AVs. I've tried to post a photo of a group my stock Model 700 printed. This site rejected my attempts. My stock Model 700 .270 Win will put custom rifles costing many thousands of dollars to shame. A friend who's now in Heaven had many very expensive, custom made rifles. Not one was as accurate as my Model 700.

My Model 700 has never failed. It has never failed to feed or eject. It will feed upside down. But who has ever hung upside down from a banana tree feeding rounds into a rifle's chamber? Marketers can wax genius when it comes to gimmicks designed to move their companies' inventories.

The Remington Model 700 is not a hand made custom rifle. It was not intended to be. It was intended to be an excellent quality rifle within working men's budgets. However, it will hold its own against the world's most expensive hunting rifles in terms of accuracy.

The Remington Model 870 is in the same category as the Model 700. It was an exceptional shotgun that was within working men's budgets.

I am saddened of Remington's apparent demise. Hunters should recognize its unrivaled contribution to the Sport of Kings.

I'd love to see scientific research that reveals hidden costs lawyers add to all products available to consumers.

Remington didn't have a Walker trigger problem. It had a pettifogger problem.
 
Posts: 136 | Location: So Cal | Registered: 03 November 2018Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by EMP3:


Remington had to closely monitor production costs in effort to manufacture the Model 700 and price it within working men's budgets.

I completely understand Remington's underrated and unrecognized contribution to the Sport of Kings. It manufactured an excellent quality rifle that was within working men's budgets.




Yes, Remington basically simplified the M1917 that they had been making and installed a target grade trigger. Look at the trigger guard bow shape and you will see the heritage as well as the safety lever location. The bolt shroud is also a dead ringer for the 1917.

Bob
 
Posts: 2552 | Location: SC,USA | Registered: 07 March 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by carpetman1:
I had a 700 go off when opening the bolt 100% sure finger was NOT on the trigger.


Had you lightened the trigger pull? I once had a 700 fail to fire on a hunt; when I opened the bolt it fired. I had adjusted the trigger to be too light, and that, combined with some corrosion (I was in Alaska and it had rained for a week) created my problem.


Don't Ever Book a Hunt with Jeff Blair
http://forums.accuratereloadin...821061151#2821061151

 
Posts: 7328 | Location: Arizona | Registered: 28 July 2004Reply With Quote
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Mike Walker quickly learned that his trigger, given the right circumstances, would fire the gun, without the trigger being pulled. He went to management and proposed a 50 cent solution, and management decided not to implement thefix.

Mike Walker said so much on a TV show.

this link shows the Walker trigger mechanism and a bit of the history and theory.

https://theproductlawyers.com/remington-700-lawsuit/

When this first came out in the public, I was talking to a "greybeard" who remembered two individuals, who with hardware store new M722's, managed to put one hole each, into the floorboards of the Desoto car they had taken to go hunting. Their rifles discharged when the safety was taken off, so the hunters could extract the round from the chamber.

I never really trusted over ride triggers. They are basically a trap door mechanism, kick out the prop, and the trap falls. They easily get out of adjustment, and if set too light, follow. I have had lots and lots of firing pin follows, because I adjusted the trigger to light. I am very luck not to have had an out of battery, or in battery ignition due to this. But it is only due to luck.

I think the two stage military triggers are the most fool proof trigger mechanisms ever built, and I do not have problems shooting two stage triggers. I have shot tens of thousands of rounds, in NRA competitions, with two stage triggers, and they work great.

Incidentally, some of the Bullseye Pistol shooters I know, have stoned their 1911 sears to become "roll triggers". There is a slight movement before sear release, a mini two stage affect.

If your Walker trigger has never malfunctioned, luckily you. In the future, just rest the muzzle of your rifle on the arch of your boot, as you extract the round. Maybe something will happen.

Maybe not. You don't believe anything will happen, do you?
 
Posts: 838 | Registered: 10 October 2005Reply With Quote
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Wrong. A factory adjusted Walker trigger will not eventually fire without the trigger being pulled. If the factory applied lube dries and converts to gum it can fire without pulling the trigger because the mechanism is compromised. But only if the shooter pulled the trigger on safe. Then released the safety. I've had these triggers in pieces for years and fully understand how they work. Walker got paid a pretty penny for his "testimony" from what I hear. I own four Walker triggered guns, some more than 30 years, and never had an issue because I maintain them.

quote:
Originally posted by SlamFire:
Mike Walker quickly learned that his trigger, given the right circumstances, would fire the gun, without the trigger being pulled. He went to management and proposed a 50 cent solution, and management decided not to implement thefix.

Mike Walker said so much on a TV show.

this link shows the Walker trigger mechanism and a bit of the history and theory.

https://theproductlawyers.com/remington-700-lawsuit/

When this first came out in the public, I was talking to a "greybeard" who remembered two individuals, who with hardware store new M722's, managed to put one hole each, into the floorboards of the Desoto car they had taken to go hunting. Their rifles discharged when the safety was taken off, so the hunters could extract the round from the chamber.

I never really trusted over ride triggers. They are basically a trap door mechanism, kick out the prop, and the trap falls. They easily get out of adjustment, and if set too light, follow. I have had lots and lots of firing pin follows, because I adjusted the trigger to light. I am very luck not to have had an out of battery, or in battery ignition due to this. But it is only due to luck.

I think the two stage military triggers are the most fool proof trigger mechanisms ever built, and I do not have problems shooting two stage triggers. I have shot tens of thousands of rounds, in NRA competitions, with two stage triggers, and they work great.

Incidentally, some of the Bullseye Pistol shooters I know, have stoned their 1911 sears to become "roll triggers". There is a slight movement before sear release, a mini two stage affect.

If your Walker trigger has never malfunctioned, luckily you. In the future, just rest the muzzle of your rifle on the arch of your boot, as you extract the round. Maybe something will happen.

Maybe not. You don't believe anything will happen, do you?
 
Posts: 2552 | Location: SC,USA | Registered: 07 March 2002Reply With Quote
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If the walker trigger was so damn perfect then why has Remington had to settle out of court for billions of dollars...I had a Win mod 54 that if you pushed the trigger "forward" it would go off and Ive seen many Rem. 700 pop if you bounced them on the floor lightly. I disagree most triggers can go off accidently and with no pull on the trigger or fault of the owner, There has been many deaths and accidental deaths with the 700 and the guns were not pointed at anyone, they went off in hunting camps and bounced into a child in one case and family members in many cases, had nothing to do with negligence of the shooter, only the failure of Remington to admit failure and its cost them over and over again, and rightly so...Go online or wherever on the number of suits over all the years...In fact Jack Belk wrote a book on that exact subject and has been a witness for the deceased in many cases...


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 36786 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Well Ray, if you bounce most lightly set modern triggers with the safety off they will likely release. Its called inertia fire. Drop it hard enough and inertia will move the trigger backwards until it releases. M70, Rugers, military Mausers are exceptions. This usually occurs with Walkers and with Bold and other designs with trapdoor sears. Especially bad with Remington 788 and 580 series triggers. I see it frequently with user tampered triggers where sear engagement has been reduced. That's why our shop rule is no trigger leaves less that three pounds. Keep the trigger clean and keep the safety engaged until you are ready to shoot - no problem. When I take into consideration all of the BS I hear from customers about what their firearm did I have to take anecdotal reports of accidental discharges with a grain of salt. I've seen customers stand in front of me with a shotgun and chamber a round with finger on trigger and the resulting discharge blamed on the weapon.
 
Posts: 2552 | Location: SC,USA | Registered: 07 March 2002Reply With Quote
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Having the firearm pointed in the wrong direction. causes lots of problems if one has a unintentional discharge.

I have investigated several of these as a LEO. If the people would have not have their firearm pointed at themselves or someone else.

When the firearm discharged no one would have been hurt.

Several suicides classed as an "accidental discharge" because it was easier on the family.

There are very few "accidental discharges" most are unintentional.

Maybe we should have a discussion on what is and "accidental discharge" and what isn't.

I know more then on person who pulls the trigger to make sure the safety works.

Ok on a "empty" firearm pointed in a safe direction.

I have had one discharge I have no clue why it happened. I chambered a round into my 03A3. When I pushed the bolt down bang. Gun was pointed in safe direction no one was hurt.

Tried and tried to duplicate with empty rifle never could.

I have set all my hunting rifle triggers at least to 3lbs as I had several shots go before I wanted them to.

With lighter triggers.

No damage besides missing the game I was going to shoot and to my pride.
 
Posts: 16216 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Bobster:
Wrong. A factory adjusted Walker trigger will not eventually fire without the trigger being pulled. If the factory applied lube dries and converts to gum it can fire without pulling the trigger because the mechanism is compromised. But only if the shooter pulled the trigger on safe. Then released the safety.


Sort of circular logic? It can't, but it can. Well what is it?

If the mechanism is compromised due to dry lubricant, how does the user verify this? Can the rifle owner visually inspect this? If the owner has to perform a detailed strip, use de greaser on the removed trigger mechanism, and blow it out with compressed, air, that is a much higher maintenance level than what even the extraordinary owner does.

A design that is not robust, and not fault tolerant, is not a good trigger design. I remember reading of a Rem 700 being removed from a vehicle in El Paso, the owner had been to the rod and gun club, and in the drive way, he opened the bolt to eject the round he left in the chamber. (He should have unloaded the thing before he left the range). The rifle discharged and killed a woman, (long distance away, don't know how far) mowing the lawn.

I will bet her family does not consider the Walker trigger safe.

The fact of the matter, if all it takes is gunk, like dried WD40 in the mechanism, to make the mechanism unsafe and likely to discharge, then it is a bad, unsafe design.


quote:
Walker got paid a pretty penny for his "testimony" from what I hear.


How much are you getting to smear Walker? How do I know you are not a Remington Bot?
 
Posts: 838 | Registered: 10 October 2005Reply With Quote
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