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Copper free and limited penetration
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I hunt deer in small woods bounded by roads and stuff. I've done it long enough I can generally go for a head or neck shot or wait for stationary deer in perfect broadsides if it's poor light.

I like a ballistic tip or similar. It just about gets through a deer, kills it quick and I'm not too concerned about massive overpenetration. This has worked for me for 20 years

Fast forward and I have just been told I have to go lead free. I don't want solid copper - I just don't. I don't need massive penetration and I don't want weight retention. It's not necessary and it's certainly not desirable for my situation.

As far as I can see there are no 7mm lead free offerings that aren't solid copper - exit my 7-08 thumbdown . Barnes make the 62gr 6mm varmint grenade and the 30cal 150gr MPG. I've tried a downloaded 62gr varmint grenade on small deer and need to increase velocity because atm it appears to be acting like a fmj. However well I get it to work it's too marginal for anything other than head or neck shots and the situations I will chest shoot is a big buck at last light. Looks like the MPG may be worth a try. I've e mailed Barnes - no reply

The Lehigh Defense close quarters looks interesting - 79gr 30 cal - but I can see no reports on deer

Anyone else tried to get limited penetration from lead free bullets?
 
Posts: 2032 | Registered: 05 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Picture of Kyler Hamann
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What about the 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip Lead Free in 6mm?

I haven't tried it, but it might fit your needs.


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Posts: 2500 | Location: Central Coast of CA | Registered: 10 January 2002Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
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Hornady GMXs are a copper alloy.

Any non-lead bullet is likely to penetrate completely thru the deer unless it's specifically designed as a frangible.


Mike



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10039 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Penetration is governed by hollow point and velocity.

If you were close to us I can make you bullets for any purpose.

I presume your hunts are at relatively close range.


www.accuratereloading.com
Instagram : ganyana2000
 
Posts: 66667 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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Check out Cutting Edge Bullets, Safari Raptor. Bronze bullets work great!
 
Posts: 2173 | Location: NORTHWEST NEW MEXICO, USA | Registered: 05 March 2008Reply With Quote
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Picture of Snellstrom
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A light weight for caliber mono metal bullet, tipped to initiate expansion going fast will not go far once it exits an animal.
 
Posts: 5603 | Location: Eastern plains of Colorado | Registered: 31 October 2005Reply With Quote
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Picture of miles58
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There's no reason for this to be difficult. Start with a 30-30 Barnes TSX. They have a huge hollow point and will open well at down to 1100 FPS. I did not test them below that speed, but I did test 125 grain copper Barnes with a similar hollow point down below 900 FPS and they opened fully.

I can't imagine that it would be too difficult to take a 120 grain TSX in 7 MM and open that hollow point up to 1/4 inch and down load it enough for your needs. It wouldn't take a lot of them to meet your needs for a long time.
 
Posts: 958 | Location: Minnesota | Registered: 25 January 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Penetration is governed by hollow point and velocity.

If you were close to us I can make you bullets for any purpose.

I presume your hunts are at relatively close range.


That's a very kind offer but the UK isn't close sadly. Average is probably 60yd, max 120yds.

Velocity limits penetration in cup and core, same with mono and large hp?
 
Posts: 2032 | Registered: 05 January 2005Reply With Quote
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The Barnes TSX in the 30-30 will shoot thru an elk broadside, even with some angle to the bulllet almost everytime according to a friend of mine that guides elk hunters and his back up 30-30 Win carbine shoots those Rem HP monolithics (probably Barnes)very well..He tells me they really penetrate unless you hit massive bone, even then they work but don't get you an exit??? Based on that Ive shot some whitetail on culls, and they penetrate full from any angle?? My 25-35 with GS custom 100 gr.monolithics fp hollow points shoot thru deer from almost any angle, and based on that Im sure they would shoot thru a elk broadside up to perhaps 200 yards..

Might as well find a good monolithic as were looking at the future much to my sorrow, but it is what it is and God help us when the liberals get in office, they can screw up an anvil with a powder puff...George Soros just purchased Marlin and shut it down!! scary huh!!


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 41722 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Picture of Fury01
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What is you concern with all copper sir if I may ask? I understand lead free rules, think they are BS but they are here to stay it seems. Also understand hunting between two roads in a woods patch as I lived in upstate N.Y. a number of years. Your velocity question is answered by a “yes but;” it works the same. However; most monometals are built so well that the base stays together no matter what. Unlike a cup and core there is a cessation of the peel back effect. Where a jacket will peel completely off and create a thin wide piece of metal that usually fragments when subjected to high speeds the mono just creates a short solid bullet that keeps going. There are frangible bullets made to come apart on people so likely would work on deer. I personally would try the Barnes 30-30 150 and run it at 1500-1800 and know that is likely the best I could do to accommodate the circumstances. If your 30 caliber is a 30-06 case size or smaller, a light load of fast powder much like a cast load would make a quiet easy shooting round. However they are all copper.


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2135 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 1894mk2:
quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Penetration is governed by hollow point and velocity.

If you were close to us I can make you bullets for any purpose.

I presume your hunts are at relatively close range.


That's a very kind offer but the UK isn't close sadly. Average is probably 60yd, max 120yds.

Velocity limits penetration in cup and core, same with mono and large hp?


Yes.

On my tests with solid copper bullets, the diameter and depth of the hollow point does govern penetration.


www.accuratereloading.com
Instagram : ganyana2000
 
Posts: 66667 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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take a look at maker bullets. the high velocity offerings
 
Posts: 241 | Registered: 15 January 2010Reply With Quote
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Man those liberals that make laws can screw up an anvil with a powder puff...


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 41722 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyler Hamann:
What about the 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip Lead Free in 6mm?

I haven't tried it, but it might fit your needs.
I haven't tried it, either, and don't anticipate a need to ever try it. However, it might be exactly what is needed for the situation 1894mkII describes. It is designed to do what the regular Ballistic Tip does without the use of lead. I have a friend who swears by 55 grain Ballistic Tips in his .243AI for just about everything on four feet up to the size of whitetails and feral hogs.
 
Posts: 13207 | Location: Henly, TX, USA | Registered: 04 April 2001Reply With Quote
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Maker and cavity back bullets both make bullets that might be ideal for your situation.


Shoot straight, shoot often.
Matt
 
Posts: 1168 | Location: Wisconsin | Registered: 19 July 2001Reply With Quote
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Picture of rnovi
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This is an interesting conundrum and maybe just the ticket for the mono-metal makers to up the ante again. There’s no reason they couldn’t make some kind of “extra expansion” bullet and market it as such. Or maybe a bullet designed to come apart into 4 smaller flechettes for increased damage.


Regards,

Robert

******************************
H4350! It stays crunchy in milk longer!
 
Posts: 2308 | Location: Greater Nashville, TN | Registered: 23 June 2006Reply With Quote
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Picture of NormanConquest
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Ray, I like that! "A liberal can make laws that can screw up an anvil with a powder puff." HA! I am going to use that phrase in the future with your permission (or not) Big Grin


Never mistake motion for action.
 
Posts: 17357 | Location: Austin, Texas | Registered: 11 March 2013Reply With Quote
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Picture of jeffeosso
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Remember, that in a window of vels, penetration goes up as vel goes down.


#dumptrump

opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 38346 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
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So true and at most rifle impact velocities for other than solid RNs or Flat Point where the relative deformation is small - the window where penetration goes down with increased velocity is the predominant window - 1800-2400 fps with expanding bullets penetration goes down with impact velocity as the negative effect of deformation exceeds the positive effect of velocity


Mike



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10039 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of Fury01
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UPDATE: I see Hornady has a bullet made for Subsonic loads available in 30 Caliber now. That would be a great choice for you to try as it does have a lead core.


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2135 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Over this side of the pond we have the Fox bullet - solid copper but with a large cavity.

https://www.foxbullets.eu/

They are designed to expand well in our smaller deer, notably Roe - a large one has a carcass weight of 20kg.

They open well, but shed very little weight. Experience over here on several thousand deer shot is they kill quickly and humanely (like any conventional bullet) but leave very little in the way of blood shot meat. Choose your shot carefully and put one behind shoulder and you just loose a 2” square of rib material - all the rest is untouched. Even through shoulder, you can still use most of the meat.

Neck shot a couple of animals - results pretty much as i expect from normal 7x57 ammo.

As with any non-toxic go lighter for calibre to keep velocities high.
 
Posts: 977 | Location: Scotland | Registered: 28 February 2011Reply With Quote
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I’d take that ballistic tip and a gold sharpie and call it good.


I am back from a long Hiatus... or whatever.
Take care.
smallfry
 
Posts: 2045 | Location: West most midwestern town. | Registered: 13 June 2001Reply With Quote
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I remember reading a game warden report on the use of the .308 caliber 150gr Barnes MPG bullets. They used them to dispatch deer and other animals. They worked but they had to make broadside shots to ensure they penetrated enough to hit the vitals. If bone was struck they had a wounded animal on their hands.
 
Posts: 741 | Location: Las Vegas | Registered: 23 June 2009Reply With Quote
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HMMMMM, the heading states "copper free" and limited penetration...Its being addressed as lead free and limited penetration is it not?

a copper free bullet has to be a lead bullet and if so a strong hollow point should do the job..

did I miss something here? Ive had a bad morning.


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 41722 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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remember reading a game warden report on the use of the .308 caliber 150gr Barnes MPG bullets. They used them to dispatch deer and other animals. They worked but they had to make broadside shots to ensure they penetrated enough to hit the vitals. If bone was struck they had a wounded animal on their hands.

Thanks. My 06 shoots them in 1 hole with a start load of H4895. It's what I will be using.
 
Posts: 2032 | Registered: 05 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Sounds like the Game Dept you refer to must have been drinking pretty heavy...A 150 gr. bullet of almost any make will penetrate a deer full length from any angle...Ice shot a lot of deer both whitetail and Mule deer with my Savage 99 308 with a lot of different bullets including the soft Sierra and even it had substantial penetration..It was also my saddle gun and shot elk with it and no complaints..Its the equivelent at 100 yards of the 30-06 at about 200 yards, all things equal and thats damn high praise in my book..

IMO about any caliber is good on deer, the problems arise as the animals become larger like Moose and elk, best to shoot a monolithic as fast as you can push it and get as closd as you can, limit your shots to 200 yards max is good advise with the 30-30 etc//


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 41722 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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The Winchester Deer season is a copper bullet with a big deep hollow point designed to open up like more than a ballistic tip.

I am assuming you mean lead free.

If wanting a lead bullet stay with Ballistic Tips.
 
Posts: 10547 | Location: Somewhere above Tennessee and below Kentucky  | Registered: 31 July 2016Reply With Quote
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Well yeah, he used his Bal. Tip load for 20 years and it worked perfect, why is he even thinking about changing?? Does his friend know something the rest of do not? I mean only California would go none lead...they are top heavy with simpletons..


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 41722 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Might be a land owner thing.
 
Posts: 19290 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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It is a landowner thing Roll Eyes
 
Posts: 2032 | Registered: 05 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Keep in mind that copper free means a lead bullet only as far as I know..Lead free would be a Barnes bullet or a monolithic bullets same thing..Calf.is lead free by law I understand, supposedly animals shot with lead are poison to vultures and people, and that of course is pure BS from stupid over reactive liberals..


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 41722 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Picture of Fjold
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quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
Keep in mind that copper free means a lead bullet only as far as I know..Lead free would be a Barnes bullet or a monolithic bullets same thing..Calf.is lead free by law I understand, supposedly animals shot with lead are poison to vultures and people, and that of course is pure BS from stupid over reactive liberals..


California and Washington just banned a couple of Camaros because they have too much copper in their brake pads and it apparently kills fish.

Why Chevy's high-performance Camaro models have been banned in CA, WA

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/...shington-ss-zl1-1le/


Frank



"I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money."
- Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953

NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite

 
Posts: 12500 | Location: Kentucky, USA | Registered: 30 December 2002Reply With Quote
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WElll they shouldn't be driving in such deep water! It also kills fishermen that can't swim and catch fish or chew gum and walk, oh well! rotflmo

I agree with Jeffe and Mike, slowing down a mono bullet or any bullet creates penetration,and reduces internal hemorage, all elephant hunters know that..

Last year or the year before I had some Win. factory ammo, 125 gr. jacketed hollow point with lots of lead exposed in 30-30 caliber, still have some of that stuff..It lacked a lot of penetration but was good enough stopped on the off side skin if a broadside shot was offered and it killed deer great, both white tail and Mule deer at up to 200 yards or so..But my policy is usually I want a bullet that will penetrate what Im hunting with a Texas heart shot if needed. All else is bullet testing with me.


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 41722 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Picture of The Dane
posted Hide Post
Barnes Varmint Grenade!
https://www.barnesbullets.com/...nt-grenade-shop-all/
Copper/tin filling so no lead.
 
Posts: 1102 | Location: Denmark | Registered: 15 October 2001Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
Maybe start with a jacketed lead bullet, melt out the lead and replace it with bismuth?
Or buy Barnes X bullets, chuck them in a lathe and drill the hollow point bigger...


TomP

Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right.

Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906)
 
Posts: 14321 | Location: Moreno Valley CA USA | Registered: 20 November 2000Reply With Quote
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No one has said it yet but the Hammer Bullets might be worth a peek.

I've used them in 2 different calibers so far and they work great!

At close range, the pedals blow off and it only leaves a much smaller base to do any penetrating.

Again, this is a mono-metal bullet with no lead but not sure how you're going to get away with anything else.

Good luck in your quest.

Zeke
 
Posts: 2269 | Registered: 27 October 2011Reply With Quote
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Picture of Jiri
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I didn't get that "copper free" too at all. But there are still some nickel plated steel jacketed lead core bullet out there, for example RWS Uni:

https://rws-ammunition.com/en/...lets/rws-uni-classic


Jiri
 
Posts: 2066 | Location: Czech Republic | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Yes, a bit confusing but in the body of his post, he said he found out he has to go lead free.

It's going to be hare to go lead AND copper free. Not many steel bullets out there and none I'd shoot in my rifles.

Zeke
 
Posts: 2269 | Registered: 27 October 2011Reply With Quote
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The suggestion to open hollow point of a factory tested Barnes X or any monolithic probably will be conducive to MORE penetration not LESS. Weakened the petals to shear off and create solid of sorts, Ive seen this with Barnes X, and some of Saeeds monolithic, and its probably conducive to all Monos..This is a good thing on huge beasts such as Buffalo and Hippo I suggest, but not necessarily on PG or light animals would be my opinion ??


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 41722 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 1894mk2:
I have just been told I have to go lead free.


DU?
 
Posts: 861 | Registered: 13 November 2008Reply With Quote
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