Not long range yet, trying to help a buddy out. He sent me this picture of a 10 shot group by a new shooter he's mentoring. First six shots touching last four are the fliers. Rifle is a .243 Win bench/LR varmint rifle that weighs nearly 13 lbs shooting 115 grain BN coated DTAC, and shots are at 100 yards. I'm thinking new shooter lost concentration after the first six, he thinks it's copper fouling. He asked help with diagnosis but is in MO and I'm in CO.



Rifle is a Stevens 200 with McGowen 1:7 twist heavy varmint barrel bedded to HS Precision stock, scope is a 6.5-20X44 Vortex Viper. I know he's using RL22 just don't know the charge. I sold my buddy this rifle and I was shooting .4 MOA at 300 yards for five and had no problems ever ringing MOA steel targets or prairie dogs at more than twice the distance. However, I was shooting 115 grain Berger VLD .130 off lands.

If the load is the load you were shooting so well with, and the shooter is a new shooter, I would suspect stock weld and head placement.

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
If the load is the load you were shooting so well with, and the shooter is a new shooter, I would suspect stock weld and head placement.

This for sure. He needs to shoot the gun himself. He's way overthinking it. New shooter on a 10 shot string? It's almost certainly the shooter.

LWD

I told him I thought the mechanics went wrong and shots 6-10 would mean a magazine change.

Is he target shooting with this load and gun, or using it for hunting?

If target shooting he needs more work.

If hunting, that looks like 10 dead critters.

Target shooting, hoping to get into lr steel shooting. Might see use in a deer blind but I doubt it.

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:
Not long range yet, trying to help a buddy out. He sent me this picture of a 10 shot group by a new shooter he's mentoring. First six shots touching last four are the fliers. Rifle is a .243 Win bench/LR varmint rifle that weighs nearly 13 lbs shooting 115 grain BN coated DTAC, and shots are at 100 yards. I'm thinking new shooter lost concentration after the first six, he thinks it's copper fouling. He asked help with diagnosis but is in MO and I'm in CO.

1. I detest the term "fiiers." The implication is that some unknown factor magically made the bullet go off course through no fault of the gun, the ammo or the shooter. Fliers are part of the group. I believe the term was invented by gun writers trying to make excuses for the crappy gun a manufacturer sent them for testing.

2. It's possible the shooter lost concentration. Only more shooting will illuminate that issue.

3. Provided the barrel was clean to begin with, I can't imagine copper fouling is the cause after only 10 shots. I believe a more likely cause is barrel heating.

4. I think "cheek weld" is very overrated provided scope parallax is properly adjusted.

I have a rifle which, when shot will put the first 2 or 3 bullets into about 1/2 inch at 100 yards and after that the groups open up. The barrel doesn't feel at all hot and it takes a lot longer that the oft touted 15 or 20 minute cool down for it to shoot the tiny groups again. I believe changes in group size with extended shooting can be caused by heating of he metal near the bore that can't always be felt by touching the rifle barrel. Whether the cause is a minute change in bore diameter or something else, I don't know.

holding concentration for a 10 shot group can be difficult, and losing a sight picture when looking at the group is a very likely cause

Shooter getting tired, losing concentration?

Keeping 10 shots all in the same "hole" requires intense concentration and consistency from any shooter, let alone a rookie- I agree with the general consensus of the issue being more shooter than rifle related.

quote:

Originally posted by DuaneinND:
Keeping 10 shots all in the same "hole" requires intense concentration and consistency from any shooter, let alone a rookie- I agree with the general consensus of the issue being more shooter than rifle related.

I agree.

If your bud shoots the rifle he will confirm this or, alternatively, confirm the rifle is acting up...

Edit to add: I see similar performance with my 14yr old son sometimes, and used to see it more frequently when he was younger and less experienced. Also wearing both plugs and muffs might help the new shooter. Muzzle blast, even what an experienced shooter would think was minimal, will wear on a new shooter even wearing good muffs.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by DuaneinND:
Keeping 10 shots all in the same "hole" requires intense concentration and consistency from any shooter, let alone a rookie- I agree with the general consensus of the issue being more shooter than rifle related.

[. . .snip . . .]

If your bud shoots the rifle he will confirm this or, alternatively, confirm the rifle is acting up… [. . . snip . . .]

JPK

That's absolutely the place to start. When I spray bullets, I always ask someone else (usually Mark) to shoot a group. It works well for me (and for Mark . . . we reciprocate).

Barrel heat-up is my opinion.

Grumulkin--That rifle that groups the first 2 or 3 and then opens up. Would those later shots be fliers?

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Grumulkin--That rifle that groups the first 2 or 3 and then opens up. Would those later shots be fliers?

No, they're not fliers. It's a gun that shoots really good 3 shot groups (1/2 inch or so at 100 yards) out of a cold barrel and pretty good (about 1 inch) groups when one goes 5 shots. With that gun there is also vertical stringing which would support the barrel heating hypothesis.

So no, they're not the detested fliers but rather a fault of the gun.